The illusory I

[loverofall]

I had about 10 ideas to call this thread but this made the most sense because saying I anymore doesn't feel right.

Lately, I have been thinking "I want this" or "I love this" to any feeling or situation and taking LM's advice to welcome feelings like you are ready to feel that way forever. I also bought into the you have to feel your way through this.

Well, he is right, you can push yourself pretty hard so don't go too hard but no pain no gain was my old football training. So I at times just sat back and relaxed into the moment being aware and doing my best at non conceptual awareness.

I ordered a book of Amazon.com "Awaken to the Dream" and it opened me up. When he pointed out that "I want to undo my ego" is splitting the ego in two and then you can watch yourself undo the ego which will split it into three it hit me like a brick wall And then the statment that "I want to drop my ego" was pointed out that that there are two thoughts , the ego and the I that wants to drop it. It shifted me and there is fear and some elation at this understanding like OMG, I really don't exist. Wait, I used I again. I can't use I. I doesn't exist. This doesn't exist. I isn't real. I am losing my mind but its all feeling okay. Then this mind goes real quiet and there is background sound and there is seeing. Of course the "I" gets excited but everything stays pretty quiet inside so I go to explain this to my wife and during the whole conversation it seems disengenious to use I so the language used was there is hearing, there is seeing there are thoughts. She says that sounds like your just present but it was deeper than any presence that was felt before. I sort of just sat there a while and observed and listened.

The next morning, today, I was back but not fully because the secret was exposed deeper to me. It was hard to not keep using Zen Dancer's pointers of "wake up" "right here, right now" and other pointers like "Who am I?" "Who do these thoughts come to?" etc. At some level I knew the I is definitely a scam and it didn't make much sense not keep using the pointers as much as possible. Thoughts have quieted and down and stress is much lower. Things don't quite seem as real anymore.

Poke me please.

[lightmystic]

Nice! Well, it sounds like you are in the middle of a big transformation, so I don't want to poke you too much. This change is physical just as much as it's on all other levels, so you gotta be gentle with yourself.....

Okay, so, at this point, do you notice your mind, individuality and all, just doing it's thing? And can you notice how you are not it in a limited way, but rather an observer of it, maybe the way you observe your own heart beating? Are you starting to see how you are not separate from your mind, but you are not involved exactly....? Because I think, once you go back and look, you might notice that feelings of "I" and individuality can even show up strongly in Awareness, but that doesn't mean you have to identify with them. You can just notice the tendency. And, even if you identify with it for a while, you can start to notice that too....ultimately, once it's seen through, it's only a matter of time before the whole thing unwinds. It's just a question of desire and motivation. But it sounds like, for you, so far so good.

Anyway, what do you think?

[loverofall]

There was some of the seeing the I thought as separate appearing in my awareness.

Its funny, as you used the word big transformation, the I gets excited and then when you talked about the their being a physical side the I created anxiety. Excitement and anxiety are created emotions from previous learning so the knowledge is ingrained that the those are illusionary feelings.

I woke up and the I is stronger but as there is more direct seeing it weakens or there is more space. Then its time to get work done and get ready but again, it will be hard not to use pointers through the day. So much seems like a waste of time if its not going into feeling and direct seeing the moment along with using pointer thoughts.

There is more peace but there is still the usual angst with day to day worries, they just don't stick as much.

[loverofall]

I can see it unraveling more. Once you really get it at some level I can see where there is no turning back. You would have to go into denial to do that and why would you.

Playing basketball this morning I was connecting to the readings about the reference point . There was basketball is impersonal and more true than I am watching or playing a basketball game. Once the reference point is understood as false, things start falling away.

One other thing was freaky. Background noise this morning was very loud to the point that there was concern.

[loverofall]

Another interesting observation is as more of this is seen it reminds me of the feelings I had when I first fell in love back in high school. Fear, excitement, heart beating type stuff. Thats what is there sometimes.

[lightmystic]

Yeah, this stuff can definitely bring significant physical changes. Obviously, if a physical change persists or hurts for a significant period of time, you should check with a doctor to be safe, but there have been all kinds of changes on the physical level that I don't know how to account for, but were definitely not medical problems....(although there was some worry that it might be at the time).

I'm glad that you see that there really is no going back. Because then you can relax into the knowledge that it's literally really just a matter of time. I think it's also important to recognize that the "I" can show up in Awareness and it doesn't actually limit you (i.e. you don't have to identify with it just because it shows up). No arising of "I" or non-arising of "I" can limit you if you recognize that it's not the same as That which you are, but is not separate either. The idea of "I" IS none other than that, but only if it's recognized as an idea and not mistaken for reality.

So there is a big unwinding process of taking every way which you believed conceptions to be reality and discovering that they are not. And that can bring up both excitement, anxiety, and a myriad of other emotions. It's really finding the infinite value of these emotions that resolves them. Example, there is no such emotion as "excitement" or "anxiety", but really one emotion that could be called both. And the way it feels only depends on how open you are able to be in a moment. They are both just more Awareness - think about it - when you get excited or anxious, your hairs stand on end, you get hyper alert...it's literally just an intensity of more awareness. And when that intensity is blocked, it feels like anxiety, when that intensity is overwhelming a little, but not blocked, then it feels like excitement.

And all you have to do is keep your attention innocent, like you have been doing, and allow these things to unwind, even if/when they're scary.....

And innocent means innocent. So if you find yourself not being innocent, you don't need to worry or change it, just let yourself be innocent about it. It's like there's this energetic structure of allowing, and you can apply that to whatever content is going on in your mind. And that's an important distinction, because I think it's important to recognize that there is no way that your mind can behave that is "wrong" or "going backwards". It's simply applying that same openness energy to it. And sometimes that will change the mind's way of functioning to something more comfortable, and many times it will not. It doesn't matter. It's just holding a loving space for your thoughts and feelings to be whatever they are, and what they are have permission to be anything, especially "not loving". And the more you can do that, hold the apparent opposite of mind/concepts (which have boundaries) and the openness of That (which is infinite) simultaneously, the more easily direct seeing will become, and the more solid it can get. Direct seeing can even go away, and you can see that directly. It's like, whatever ideas is formed, it's allowing that to be, looking behind it without looking behind it for another idea.....and yet not negating anything....Any "I" that you can experience is experienced by That which perceives. And That which perceives is never an "I", but is still what is ultimately REALLY being referred to when we say "I am" (as in "I exist in some capacity").

Wow, it turns out I've said a lot here....anyway, I'll enjoy hearing your response when you have a chance and hearing how things go.

[zendancer]

Loverofall: You are correct. The way we usually think about what's happening reinforces the conventional illusion of separateness. When we first read that silence is helpful, we think, "I must become silent, or I must make myself become silent." The ego goes to work trying to shut itself up as if it were two separate things. LOL. Later, everything is seen in a more impersonal way and we don't identify with the thoughts that arise in the mind. The thoughts are just seen impassively.

Another NLP trick is to always refer to the source of action as "It" or "Oneness," as in "Now It is going to the bathroom. Now It is having thoughts. Now Oneness is playing basketball." You noticed the same thing using the phraseology of "There is basketball," or "there is thinking."

We can learn an amazing amount of stuff just by becoming silent and observing "what is," but ultimately, we get to a state of such impersonal awareness that thoughts are no longer a problem. In fact, even ego is not a problem. It, too, can be seen as the perfect manifestation of oneness. "Now Oneness is egoing." LOL.

AAR you're heading in the right direction. Just keep attending.

[loverofall]

Thanks for these extremely helpful replies.

LM, I can relate to these feelings really being the same emotion with out the labeling going on. There is an energy to it and a curiosity to see how it affects my experiences. I do feel that there is nothing I really need to do but be open and when the I pops back just go back to pointers and direct seeing. Your innocent pointer is very helpful too.

ZD NLP tricks and pointers are very powerful to keep shifting from I to being. Impersonal is a key pointer now. I can see where the ego makes everything personal and thus that is where all the issues come from. I guess its that old saying "Don't take it personally". Don't take or see anything personally is more like it at this stage. Personal means suffering.

The other real important thing that helped that I learned on this board is watch myself do things without thinking thoughts. It seems that there are all these thoughts that just get in the way of me doing things. Like I am going to type this email and then take a breath and see what happens. Anytime resistance comes up now I do this step back to see what I will do without thinking out each step. I don't know if that makes sense.

[lightmystic]

Sounds like you are in good shape. Enjoy your experimenting of how your experiences change. I'll look forward to hearing about it as things progress....

[zendancer]

Loverofall: Now you can probably appreciate the stories of Socrates and Rajneesh when each man came to a street corner, stopped, and just waited to see what would happen next. According to Plato, Socrates stood motionless one day for several hours on a street corner. He stood there so long that many people gathered around him in silence to see what he was going to do next. Little did they realize that that was exactly what he was doing, too.

In one of his books Rajneesh describes performing the same experiment on the university campus in India where he once taught philosophy.

You're doing the same thing when you take a breath and wait to see what will happen next, but you're doing it for a shorter period of time. Just for fun you might try this: sit in a comfortable chair and cease all thoughts of personal volition. Don;t make an effort to get up and don't make an effort to stay seated. Just silently wait and watch to see what will happen next. It can be a real shock when the body suddenly acts and there is the realization that "you" had nothing to do with it.

Or, go for a hike and watch the body walk. "You" aren't thinking any thoughts or doing anything, but the body is intelligently moving bones and muscles and moving along purposefully. How is that possible without a "you" directing the action? It is just another way of discovering the scale of the illusion that most of us mistake for the truth.

[Portto]

Nice posts, Zendancer! I wish I were a kid and you were my grandfather.
The body works indeed without personal volition.
When I'm hiking I often experience clearly that I'm standing still and the landscape is moving around. Nevertheless, I can also experience the body moving - which points to the imaginary nature of space.

[loverofall]

Anyone get headaches when they use pointers, change focus from thoughts to reality or do inquiry?

Its very intense and immediate when I go from images to reality.

I was curious if this is common or if anyone had insight.

[zendancer]

Loverofall: Yes. There is a wide range of physical phenomena associated with this. Headaches, a feeling of pressure in the head, changes in ear pressure as if one went from one altitude to another, muscles that twitch or ripple, extreme fatigue, extreme energy, visions, bizarre ideation, altered sleep patterns, and lots of other similar stuff. Twenty five years ago, when I first began doing heavy meditation and going on silent retreats, I had days that I could barely drag the body around, and it seemed obvious to me that the fatigue was somehow resulting from the meditation/concentration. The extreme fatigue, which appeared off and on for several days at a time, disappeared after about two years. Later, I often experienced extreme energy and altered sleep patterns as a result of silent retreats.

I don't have any idea what the relation is between this sort of stuff, which is fairly common and widely reported, and kundalini phenomena. Kundalini phenomena are even more bizarre and include reports of extreme skin sensitivity, pain, temporary paralysis, etc. J. Krishnamurti is an example of someone who went through an extended period of time (many months) suffering from what he considered kundalini-type phenomena that included splitting headaches. Interestingly, most of the accounts I've read that are similar to his have been written by Indians, so I don't know if it is some sort of thing related to Indian culture. I can't remember ever reading that sort of an account by anyone from Japan, Korea, or China. Perhaps someone else has an idea that might throw more light on this?

[loverofall]

Is the confusion that most have deals with the hurdle of seeing that "I" is just another thought that can't drop itself. Thats where this mind got hung up on.

I am reading other writings and there are so many others writing from a perspective that there is an "I" to attain enlightenment.

I have joked about saying I don't exist but it was all conceptual and many times was in a fun way. Now, truly seeing that the thought "I" is just another thought that precedes all other thoughts is very interesting because its simple in so many ways. How that it kept being missed is very intriguing.

I enjoy math and the analogy of a circle only exsisting if there is a center (reference point) makes much more sense now. If there is no reference point than there are no boundaries because the circle dissappears with no center. As identification with the "I" thought weakens, the boundaries weaken too.

As I am typing this I am realizing how I am still so tied to the reference point. The illusionary I even wants the rest of itself to fall away which can't happen that way I think.

Non conceptual awareness happens more when I just think "I" or "I am" so is that really the purpose of those pointers?

There is rambling and typing going on and it apologizes but it doesn't have many places to really discuss this stuff.

[zendancer]

Loverofall: No, there is no "I" that can get enlightened. The idea that we are a separately-existing entity is, itself, the fundamental illusion. What we call "enlightenment" is the embodied realization that who we are, in truth, is unimaginable--infinite in time and space. There is no self that can get improved or attain anything. There is no self that can make progress on a spiritual path. There is no ego that can be eroded over time. Any idea that revolves around an "I" being anything or doing anything is just an idea, and has nothing to do with the truth. You cannot DO anything to get closer to the truth because who you are IS the truth.

If non-conceptual awareness happens more when you think "I am" or when you feel "I am," then I would stick with that. Nisargadatta said that he woke up as a result of continually shifting his attention to the feeling of "I am," so that clearly works for some people. Other people, such as Ramana, have awakened by questioning "Who am I?" Whatever allows you to spend more time in non-conceptual awareness is what I would pursue if I were you because that is what shuts off the mind and allows you to abide in silent presence. Internal silence is the key.