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Post by cabinintheforest on Feb 18, 2010 13:37:41 GMT -5
From Science and Health, the Christian Science textbook:
Man is not matter; he is not made up of brain, blood, bones, and other material elements. The Scriptures inform us that man is made in the image and likeness of God. Matter is not that likeness. The likeness of Spirit cannot be so unlike Spirit. Man is spiritual and perfect; and because he is spiritual and perfect, he must be so understood in Christian Science. Man is idea, the image, of Love; he is not physique. He is the compound idea of God, including all right ideas; the generic term for all that reflects God's image and likeness; the conscious identity of being as found in Science, in which man is the reflection of God, or Mind, and therefore is eternal; that which has no separate mind from God; that which has not a single quality underived from Deity; that which possesses no life, intelligence, nor creative power of his own, but reflects spiritually all that belongs to his Maker.
And God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
Man is incapable of sin, sickness, and death. The real man cannot depart from holiness, nor can God, by whom man is evolved, engender the capacity or freedom to sin. A mortal sinner is not God's man. Mortals are the counterfeits of immortals. They are the children of the wicked one, or the one evil, which declares that man begins in dust or as a material embryo. In divine Science, God and the real man are inseparable as divine Principle and idea.
Error, urged to its final limits, is self-destroyed. Error will cease to claim that soul is in body, that life and intelligence are in matter, and that this matter is man. God is the Principle of man, and man is the idea of God. Hence man is not mortal nor material. Mortals will disappear, and immortals, or the children of God, will appear as the only and eternal verities of man. Mortals are not fallen children of God. They never had a perfect state of being, which may subsequently be regained. They were, from the beginning of mortal history, "conceived in sin and brought forth in iniquity." Mortality is finally swallowed up in immortality. Sin, sickness, and death must disappear to give place to the facts which belong to immortal man.
Learn this, O mortal, and earnestly seek the spiritual status of man, which is outside of all material selfhood. Remember that the Scriptures say of mortal man: "As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth. For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more."
When speaking of God's children, not the children of men, Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is within you;" that is, Truth and Love reign in the real man, showing that man in God's image is unfallen and eternal. Jesus beheld in Science the per fect man, who appeared to him where sinning mortal man appears to mortals. In this perfect man the Saviour saw God's own likeness, and this correct view of man healed the sick. Thus Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is intact, universal, and that man is pure and holy. Man is not a material habitation for Soul; he is himself spiritual. Soul, being Spirit, is seen in nothing imperfect nor material.
Whatever is material is mortal. To the five corporeal senses, man appears to be matter and mind united; but Christian Science reveals man as the idea of God, and declares the corporeal senses to be mortal and erring illusions. Divine Science shows it to be impossible that a material body, though interwoven with matter's highest stratum, misnamed mind, should be man,--the genuine and perfect man, the immortal idea of being, indestructible and eternal. Were it otherwise, man would be annihilated.
God Bless.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 18, 2010 14:06:53 GMT -5
Cabin: A fundamentalist Christian might come here and post ten pages of the Bible expressing his/her beliefs. A muslim might post a section of the Koran. You have posted some stuff from Christian Science, but its still just words. The real question is "Who (or what) are you, and how are you going to find out?" Do you really want to know the truth, or do you just want to keep playing with words and ideas? There are thousands of holy books in the world. How are you going to decide what to believe? This forum is focused upon finding the truth directly, beyond all words and ideas. Are you interested in that?
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Post by drunkenlady on Feb 21, 2010 0:15:58 GMT -5
For a forum focused on finding truth directly, beyond all words and ideas, there sure are a lot of them being used on said forum? I'm curious also who is finding this direct truth?
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Post by frankshank on Feb 21, 2010 8:16:46 GMT -5
For a forum focused on finding truth directly, beyond all words and ideas, there sure are a lot of them being used on said forum? I'm curious also who is finding this direct truth? People who are 'enlightened' understand that beliefs are neither right or wrong. Cabinintheforest seems to be representing the christian science movement. She seems (and I emphasise seems) to believe that this is the way to go and SEEMS to be encouraging others to adopt a christian science stance . ZD is merely pointing out that this forum is really for people who have no strong beliefs or are working towards distancing themselves from their beliefs as they see the illusion that is attachment. |
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Post by frankshank on Feb 21, 2010 9:20:29 GMT -5
I realised after I posted that I referred to CITF as a 'she' in error. I wonder whether there's a reason why I assumed you were a lady CITF? I think there may be a subconscious belief I need to distance myself from LOL!  |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 21, 2010 12:26:51 GMT -5
For a forum focused on finding truth directly, beyond all words and ideas, there sure are a lot of them being used on said forum? I'm curious also who is finding this direct truth? Whether it is two words or a thousand words the words are nothing more than a finger pointing to something beyond words. There is only one thing writing the words and reading the words and responding to the words. Everyone knows what that one thing is, but the knowing is usually obscured by thoughts. If you become curious about who is curious, or if you are truly curious about who might find the truth, then the words on this forum may be helpful. All you have to do is look where the words are pointing. If you don't need any words in order to know where to look, then that is even better. Cheers. |
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Post by frankshank on Feb 21, 2010 13:43:21 GMT -5
For a forum focused on finding truth directly, beyond all words and ideas, there sure are a lot of them being used on said forum? I'm curious also who is finding this direct truth? Whether it is two words or a thousand words the words are nothing more than a finger pointing to something beyond words. There is only one thing writing the words and reading the words and responding to the words. Everyone knows what that one thing is, but the knowing is usually obscured by thoughts. If you become curious about who is curious, or if you are truly curious about who might find the truth, then the words on this forum may be helpful. All you have to do is look where the words are pointing. If you don't need any words in order to know where to look, then that is even better. Cheers. Sorry for butting in on this but as there's only one of us anyway what the heck. I've read before that in reality individuals actually have no control; that control is an illusion. You state that 'there's only one thing writing the words and reading the words and responding to the words', and that just doesn't make sense to me. Surely ones ego will have an impact on the decision making process? |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 21, 2010 18:36:46 GMT -5
Frank: You're right; it doesn't make any sense (intellectually.) You can experience it through your body, directly, but you will never be able to understand it rationally. The universe is alive and unified. Call it "God" or "the Vastness," or whatever you wish. IT is pure isness, and IT experiences Itself through every living thing. It is the ONLY thing looking out of everyone's eyes. Through this body/mind IT is typing these words, and through your body/mind IT will read these words. IT is the only thing here (but IT is not a thing). IT enjoys playing hide and seek with Itself (as well as many other games), and IT enjoys not knowing what will happen next. The ego and all sense of separateness is an illusion. There is no Frank; there is only the appearance of a Frank and the idea of a Frank. Frank feels real, but that is only because of the habit of incessant thought/imagination. If you become engaged in a task, Frank will disappear. If you become silent, Frank will disappear. Frank cannot exist without there being a story about Frank--without thoughts about the existence of Frank.
In the novel "Moby Dick" Ahab lifts his hand and says, "Is it I or God who lifts this hand?" That's a good question, but Melville apparently never pursued it far enough to learn the truth. If we become sufficiently silent, we begin to get glimpses of the truth that underlies consensual reality. Pay attention the next time "your" hand scratches an itch. Notice that there is no thought, "Oh, I've got an itch and I will now use my hand to scratch it." No. The body has an itch and the hand non-volitionally reaches out to scratch. What causes that to happen? If you pay attention, you will realize that "you" have nothing to do with what you see happening. "You" don't pump blood or transmit nerve impulses or regulate blood gas concentrations. In the same way, "you" don't think thoughts or make decisions. It only appears that way. The fastest way to see through all illusions is to suspend thoughts and become silent. Selfhood is the deepest illusion of all, so it usually takes longer to penetrate that illusion than "easier" ones like time and space. Cheers.
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Post by frankshank on Feb 21, 2010 19:57:56 GMT -5
Frank: You're right; it doesn't make any sense (intellectually.) You can experience it through your body, directly, but you will never be able to understand it rationally. The universe is alive and unified. Call it "God" or "the Vastness," or whatever you wish. IT is pure isness, and IT experiences Itself through every living thing. It is the ONLY thing looking out of everyone's eyes. Through this body/mind IT is typing these words, and through your body/mind IT will read these words. IT is the only thing here (but IT is not a thing). IT enjoys playing hide and seek with Itself (as well as many other games), and IT enjoys not knowing what will happen next. The ego and all sense of separateness is an illusion. There is no Frank; there is only the appearance of a Frank and the idea of a Frank. Frank feels real, but that is only because of the habit of incessant thought/imagination. If you become engaged in a task, Frank will disappear. If you become silent, Frank will disappear. Frank cannot exist without there being a story about Frank--without thoughts about the existence of Frank. In the novel "Moby thingy" Ahab lifts his hand and says, "Is it I or God who lifts this hand?" That's a good question, but Melville apparently never pursued it far enough to learn the truth. If we become sufficiently silent, we begin to get glimpses of the truth that underlies consensual reality. Pay attention the next time "your" hand scratches an itch. Notice that there is no thought, "Oh, I've got an itch and I will now use my hand to scratch it." No. The body has an itch and the hand non-volitionally reaches out to scratch. What causes that to happen? If you pay attention, you will realize that "you" have nothing to do with what you see happening. "You" don't pump blood or transmit nerve impulses or regulate blood gas concentrations. In the same way, "you" don't think thoughts or make decisions. It only appears that way. The fastest way to see through all illusions is to suspend thoughts and become silent. Selfhood is the deepest illusion of all, so it usually takes longer to penetrate that illusion than "easier" ones like time and space. Cheers. But if IT is 'writing the words and reading the words and responding to the words' how can IT also 'enjoy not knowing what will happen next'? Surely that's a contradiction. Perhaps IT enjoys not knowing what will happen next because the false self is making the choices?! As for Frank not existing, I think the sense of self is an illusion. I haven't experienced it yet but hopefully I will (less me) at some stage. I still can't rule out it simply being something to do with brain function though. It makes sense that when we're born we have no boundaries, we do not label etc.. Meditation can take you back to the stage where you just are. That may give the impression that there's no separateness and allow the brain to function super efficiently (as babies brains do) and fool us into thinking we are God as is everything else. Not a bad delusion if it is one though! |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 21, 2010 22:53:34 GMT -5
"But if IT is 'writing the words and reading the words and responding to the words' how can IT also 'enjoy not knowing what will happen next'? Surely that's a contradiction. Perhaps IT enjoys not knowing what will happen next because the false self is making the choices?!"
Frank: Don't get too attached to the words. They're just pointing at something beyond themselves. Ironically, the false self cannot make any choices because it is false; it doesn't exist. Even the word "choice" is misleading because there is no choosing. All of the hypothetical alternatives involved in any apparent choice are hypothetical, hence imaginary. The truth is always "just like this," computer humming, universal sound ringing in the background, cursor blinking on the screen. No past, no present, no future, no one, nothing, nowhere. And out of that emptiness comes........."Hi Frank. Hope you're having a great day." What a mystery!
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Post by frankshank on Feb 22, 2010 5:15:35 GMT -5
"But if IT is 'writing the words and reading the words and responding to the words' how can IT also 'enjoy not knowing what will happen next'? Surely that's a contradiction. Perhaps IT enjoys not knowing what will happen next because the false self is making the choices?!" Frank: Don't get too attached to the words. They're just pointing at something beyond themselves. Ironically, the false self cannot make any choices because it is false; it doesn't exist. Even the word "choice" is misleading because there is no choosing. All of the hypothetical alternatives involved in any apparent choice are hypothetical, hence imaginary. The truth is always "just like this," computer humming, universal sound ringing in the background, cursor blinking on the screen. No past, no present, no future, no one, nothing, nowhere. And out of that emptiness comes........."Hi Frank. Hope you're having a great day." What a mystery! I love these pointers that point you in different directions. No wonder we're all lost LOL. Please explain though (and I'm sorry if I'm going on) why drugs produce similar effects if it has nothing to do with brain function? I can compare my spiritual experiences with the different types of drugs I've tried and I do feel there's a corrolation: Ecstasy: Feeling of oneness, joy, no past or future just the now Magic mushrooms: Mostly visual with vivid colours and more detail Pot: Spaciousness, Peace LSD (not tried): Pretty much any mad perception you care to mention. I'm not asking these questions to knock your views in any way, I just want to get to the bottom of it. If it's not about brain function why do drugs produce similar (if not as natural) effects? |
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Post by Portto on Feb 22, 2010 8:57:49 GMT -5
Hi Frank,
I can try to answer.
First, the brain is made up of the same thing that perceives.
Wanting to perceive certain things without the brain is like wanting to see colors with the tongue, in a way.
Second, drugs do not create any new functions in the body (except nucleic acid based drugs, but this is not the case here).
The drugs that you listed simply stimulate or inhibit brain functions that are already in the brain. They don't create anything new - they just scramble the "normal" functioning by increasing communication in some areas and inhibiting communication in other areas.
(I know, the above lines sound very geeky, but I can't write like Jimmytantric...)
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Post by zendancer on Feb 22, 2010 8:58:27 GMT -5
Frank: I'm not denying anything about brain function. If there were an enlightenment pill, it would be great. We could take the pill and wake up. Unfortunately, the drugs that trigger cosmic consciousness experiences in a limited number of users are short-lived and often have negative side effects. There's no doubt that many people have pursued a spiritual path as a result of initial experiences with drugs, but currently there are no drugs that can give a person lasting clarity.
The question I would ask any proponent of ecstasy or other similar drug is, "Are you becoming increasingly clear as a result of your drug experiences?" IOW, after coming down from a drug-induced high involving the dissolution of boundaries, how has your life been changed? Do you know who you are? Do you understand what's going on? Do you feel free? Are you happy? Has your fear of death gone away? Do you have peace of mind? Are you free of the illusion of time, space, thingness, or selfhood? Are you one-with the truth at all times?
Until there is a pill that can do these sorts of things, we're stuck having to change our habits of mind and attain clarity through silence and direct perception.
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Post by frankshank on Feb 22, 2010 9:31:43 GMT -5
Frank: I'm not denying anything about brain function. If there were an enlightenment pill, it would be great. We could take the pill and wake up. Unfortunately, the drugs that trigger cosmic consciousness experiences in a limited number of users are short-lived and often have negative side effects. There's no doubt that many people have pursued a spiritual path as a result of initial experiences with drugs, but currently there are no drugs that can give a person lasting clarity. The question I would ask any proponent of ecstasy or other similar drug is, "Are you becoming increasingly clear as a result of your drug experiences?" IOW, after coming down from a drug-induced high involving the dissolution of boundaries, how has your life been changed? Do you know who you are? Do you understand what's going on? Do you feel free? Are you happy? Has your fear of death gone away? Do you have peace of mind? Are you free of the illusion of time, space, thingness, or selfhood? Are you one-with the truth at all times? Until there is a pill that can do these sorts of things, we're stuck having to change our habits of mind and attain clarity through silence and direct perception. ZD: I'm not a proponent of any drug (or should I not attach myself to the word proponent lol). I'm not saying drugs are great, why bother meditating. Drugs can really screw you up; better to meditate I think! I'm merely asking, is it not possible that spiritual experiences are just about brain functioning and if that is the case then the idea that we are part of God/life/vastness may just be an amazing dream but nothing more! P.S. Segal's 'Collision with the infinite' arrived at my place today based on your 7 x read recommendation! |
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Post by frankshank on Feb 22, 2010 10:06:51 GMT -5
Hi Frank, I can try to answer. First, the brain is made up of the same thing that perceives. Wanting to perceive certain things without the brain is like wanting to see colors with the tongue, in a way. Second, drugs do not create any new functions in the body (except nucleic acid based drugs, but this is not the case here). The drugs that you listed simply stimulate or inhibit brain functions that are already in the brain. They don't create anything new - they just scramble the "normal" functioning by increasing communication in some areas and inhibiting communication in other areas. (I know, the above lines sound very geeky, but I can't write like Jimmytantric...) Hi Porto, Thanks for the response. What do you mean when you state that the brain is made up of the same thing that perceives? I understand that we need a brain in order to perceive things but I don't quite get where you're coming from. I agree that the drugs I've tried have merely tampered with what's already there. All I'm asking is, is it not possible that spiritual experiences are all about brain function and therefore the idea that we are part of God/life/vastness is an illusion. The silence and enhanced brain function perhaps fooling us into thinking we are more than we are. I concur that a separate self is created by the mind as a result of conditioning but is there really anymore to it than that? P.S. You didn't come across as geeky to me! I can only compare drugs vs my spiritual experiences. I was probably way off the ultimate spiritual experience I imagine. |
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