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Post by zendancer on Feb 22, 2010 10:54:30 GMT -5
Frank: I'm sure you realize that understanding oneness intellectually is not the same as experiencing it in a tangible embodied sense. If you really felt, without any doubt, that who you are is the entire universe and that "Frank" was a total fiction, your entire outlook on things would be quite different. What difference would it make how that occurred IF it occurred? If feeling oneself to be infinite in time and space were a dream, it would be a better dream than the dream of "Frank." Wouldn't you agree? IOW, if you're happy with the dream of "Frank," and you're satisfied with your understanding of the world, then the path of non-duality has nothing to offer. This path is only for people who are NOT satisfied with what consensual reality has to offer.
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Post by Portto on Feb 22, 2010 11:47:31 GMT -5
Hi Frank,
Zendancer's posts are obviously from a more expanded perspective. I especially like the part that this path is for people who are not satisfied with the current understanding.
Regarding your question:
The answer is in your question: "who" needs the brain to perceive? Are you separate from the brain? You are separating what is perceived from what perceives.
But the separation is only imagined. Where is the separation line between what you see and who sees? Can something be seen without anyone seeing it?
In order to even know there is a brain, there must be a you that includes the brain and everything else.
You are probably worried about the brain because you don't want to lose it's volatile content. For example, you may be worried of losing some of your current memories and sense of identity. But do you worry about memories you completely forgot about? No - how could you worry about those... And I'm sure there are many forgotten memories.
Also, can you find anything that the being "Frank" created completely by himself? Did you create perceptions, sensations, identities without any contributions from the "outside?"
Everything that you see is created in harmony with everything else - and the individual Frank is not the source of it, but only a perceived point of view.
I guess this is why Zendancer is saying that the same being is looking through everybody's eyes.
Whatever is the source of everything we see - that is what is having the experience and not the individual.
A quote from Zendancer's book, "Pouring Concrete," can go well here:
"It is just as accurate to say that a tree uses a human being to see itself as it is to say that a human being sees a tree."
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Post by frankshank on Feb 22, 2010 11:59:23 GMT -5
Frank: I'm sure you realize that understanding oneness intellectually is not the same as experiencing it in a tangible embodied sense. If you really felt, without any doubt, that who you are is the entire universe and that "Frank" was a total fiction, your entire outlook on things would be quite different. What difference would it make how that occurred IF it occurred? If feeling oneself to be infinite in time and space were a dream, it would be a better dream than the dream of "Frank." Wouldn't you agree? IOW, if you're happy with the dream of "Frank," and you're satisfied with your understanding of the world, then the path of non-duality has nothing to offer. This path is only for people who are NOT satisfied with what consensual reality has to offer. If I was satisfied with consensual reality I wouldn't be here. I have a strong desire to know and experience the truth. 'Frank' (even though my name is Andy) feels like a dream to me. Something's not right and that's what I need to get to the bottom of! |
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Post by lightmystic on Feb 22, 2010 12:06:26 GMT -5
Hey FrankShank, Good point...I find that, because control implies one separate thing changing another, then the whole thing is really just an incorrect assumption. Because there never was any separation, those acting as if there is tend to just get in the way of their own fulfillment by trying to control it....If they get out of the way, then life just takes care of it, because our deepest desires are not different than Life's....it's just that we have to let go enough of what we "think" we want, to get to the heart of what we want, which is much deeper than that.....honesty, at it's deepest level, brings freedom. Whether it is two words or a thousand words the words are nothing more than a finger pointing to something beyond words. There is only one thing writing the words and reading the words and responding to the words. Everyone knows what that one thing is, but the knowing is usually obscured by thoughts. If you become curious about who is curious, or if you are truly curious about who might find the truth, then the words on this forum may be helpful. All you have to do is look where the words are pointing. If you don't need any words in order to know where to look, then that is even better. Cheers. Sorry for butting in on this but as there's only one of us anyway what the heck. I've read before that in reality individuals actually have no control; that control is an illusion. You state that 'there's only one thing writing the words and reading the words and responding to the words', and that just doesn't make sense to me. Surely ones ego will have an impact on the decision making process? |
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Post by lightmystic on Feb 22, 2010 12:17:36 GMT -5
Hey Frank, IT is not doing or not doing anything. The idea of doing comes from the mechanism that creates the appearance of separation - which I call "Mind". Mind is that which makes distinctions. You could say - is it your mind, my mind, or God's mind? But that, itself, is just another distinction made within Mind, as, again, Mind is just that mechanism of IT which makes distinctions. No distinctions, no thoughts, no story. And, if there's no story, then there's no real appreciation of what is being experienced. So there is a real value to Mind in it's function. The problem is that we believe to be real, as opposed to simply just a thought. And it's so ingrained, such a habit for so long, that we cannot even see that it is simply an assumption. It seems so real at first....And so it's finding how those assumptions about it's reality (about any reality of distinctions) really function, by examining them closely....and then the resistance starts to come up because it feels like it's threatening our individuality....and so the resistances have to be moved though, as a resistance is saying "I don't want to look" because it feels threatening. So, when we let these deep seated resistances start to unwind, then it fades, and what has really been going on this whole time becomes blindingly obvious. So the story continues, but it becomes recognized that, not only can Mind not limit us, but Mind - the very thing that makes distinctions itself, is nothing other than that same infinite, holistic substance.....there is none other.....And the substance is literally just the process of Awareness itself. And then there is no place that is not recognized to be infinite on the most fundamental level.... Frank: You're right; it doesn't make any sense (intellectually.) You can experience it through your body, directly, but you will never be able to understand it rationally. The universe is alive and unified. Call it "God" or "the Vastness," or whatever you wish. IT is pure isness, and IT experiences Itself through every living thing. It is the ONLY thing looking out of everyone's eyes. Through this body/mind IT is typing these words, and through your body/mind IT will read these words. IT is the only thing here (but IT is not a thing). IT enjoys playing hide and seek with Itself (as well as many other games), and IT enjoys not knowing what will happen next. The ego and all sense of separateness is an illusion. There is no Frank; there is only the appearance of a Frank and the idea of a Frank. Frank feels real, but that is only because of the habit of incessant thought/imagination. If you become engaged in a task, Frank will disappear. If you become silent, Frank will disappear. Frank cannot exist without there being a story about Frank--without thoughts about the existence of Frank. In the novel "Moby thingy" Ahab lifts his hand and says, "Is it I or God who lifts this hand?" That's a good question, but Melville apparently never pursued it far enough to learn the truth. If we become sufficiently silent, we begin to get glimpses of the truth that underlies consensual reality. Pay attention the next time "your" hand scratches an itch. Notice that there is no thought, "Oh, I've got an itch and I will now use my hand to scratch it." No. The body has an itch and the hand non-volitionally reaches out to scratch. What causes that to happen? If you pay attention, you will realize that "you" have nothing to do with what you see happening. "You" don't pump blood or transmit nerve impulses or regulate blood gas concentrations. In the same way, "you" don't think thoughts or make decisions. It only appears that way. The fastest way to see through all illusions is to suspend thoughts and become silent. Selfhood is the deepest illusion of all, so it usually takes longer to penetrate that illusion than "easier" ones like time and space. Cheers. But if IT is 'writing the words and reading the words and responding to the words' how can IT also 'enjoy not knowing what will happen next'? Surely that's a contradiction. Perhaps IT enjoys not knowing what will happen next because the false self is making the choices?! As for Frank not existing, I think the sense of self is an illusion. I haven't experienced it yet but hopefully I will (less me) at some stage. I still can't rule out it simply being something to do with brain function though. It makes sense that when we're born we have no boundaries, we do not label etc.. Meditation can take you back to the stage where you just are. That may give the impression that there's no separateness and allow the brain to function super efficiently (as babies brains do) and fool us into thinking we are God as is everything else. Not a bad delusion if it is one though!  |
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Post by frankshank on Feb 22, 2010 12:31:56 GMT -5
Thanks LM, Porto & ZD for taking the time to explain things. I think at this point my head is about to explode lol so I'm going to step back for a bit and re-read later. Many thanks again! |
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Post by lightmystic on Feb 22, 2010 22:50:11 GMT -5
Hey Frankshank, Yeah, definitely take your time with this stuff, because, if you are really getting it, then transformation's gonna start to happen just by ingesting it, because the recognition for you is there and starts to enliven it. So definitely give yourself a break until you feel comfortable enough to poke it more.... Thanks LM, Porto & ZD for taking the time to explain things. I think at this point my head is about to explode lol so I'm going to step back for a bit and re-read later. Many thanks again! |
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Post by zendancer on Feb 23, 2010 9:19:36 GMT -5
Andy: Sorry, the Frankshank screen name made me forget that Frank is Andy. LOL. Yes, I know that you're not satisfied with what consensual reality has to offer. If you were, you wouldn't be here. Like LM says, take your time; this stuff usually has to percolate awhile. When we silently contemplate the whole scene, including our own confusion/anxiety/discontent/need to understand/etc, the body/mind begins looking more and more deeply into what's going on. This is often happening on a subconscious level, and we are not aware of it, but the body/mind intuitively understands that the intellect cannot solve the problem and begins searching for a deeper source of perception and a different kind of understanding. I think it was Newton who walked around in his garden for years silently contemplating certain mathematical and scientific issues and subsequently sat down and wrote out the calculus and an incredible array of scientific principles. He contemplated what he wanted to know and patiently waited for the answers to appear from within himself. This is exactly the same sort of thing. Cheers.
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Post by drunkenlady on Feb 24, 2010 5:00:05 GMT -5
Words,words and more words. Frank don't waste your time on experiencing anything called enlightenment or awaking-it cannot take place. It,s kinda like the image of yourself in the mirror thinking it has a real existence but the second you walk away from the mirror where is the image of you? All of us are that image in the Gods mirror! You want to feel gods presence as you?Spend your time reading some of the Sufi s--there's where you'll be moved by something besides thought/intellectualism. I'd say good luck, but who needs it? Oh and God doesn't need to wake up or find ITSELF!
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Post by frankshank on Feb 24, 2010 6:35:23 GMT -5
Hi Drunken Lady. I guess IT is just playing games with words and that's what this site is all about.
I watched about 2 hours of Tony Parsons on Youtube last night and IT blew me(?) away. I'm starting to think (am I?) would I really want to shatter the illusion if it was within my powers and the answer now is probably no. I feel freer just getting the basics and not worrying about anything because what is there to worry about. Then again I appreciate that apparently I'm not even typing this, it's all part of the game, and a very strange game it is indeed!
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Post by drunkenlady on Feb 24, 2010 22:21:01 GMT -5
I wish you nothing but the best FrankShank. Just playing with words- no harm meant to you or anyone else on this forum. May JAI bless you with the knowledge of no-thought. Praise be to the Giver of ALL existence!!!!
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Post by frankshank on Feb 25, 2010 13:58:51 GMT -5
Thanks Drunkenlady. All the best to you too! |
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