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Post by laughter on Oct 5, 2024 13:59:22 GMT -5
heightened awareness of awareness Yes, but there's less, too. And sometimes less is more.  |
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Post by inavalan on Oct 5, 2024 14:07:00 GMT -5
... And sometimes less is more. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 5, 2024 14:13:45 GMT -5
I'm tired of this talk about whether I know you exist or I know the world exists. It's pure bs and only happens on websites like this. Anyone who says others are mere appearances can be dispelled of this with a good swift kick in the ass. If they persist, keep kicking them. They'll stop. It's nonsensical rubbish. Idiots trying to sound intelligent. They give nonduality a bad name. The truth is much more complex than stupid platitudes. It defies comprehension. That's the challenge. Not that questioning the reality of the "external" isn't useful. It can be. But it's a scalpel, only useful in the hands of someone who is skilled. In the hands of a pretender, it's dangerous. Why you get a bunch of whack jobs who've read a couple of Jed McKenna books running around telling folks how sublime they are, but you can't see it cause you're not. It's drivel. I have better things to do.  bad mood much? I think I understand your sentiment even if I do dabble from time to time in the nonsense you call out. But it does occur to me that there are likely people with interests in the underlying topics that go beyond just talk and emerge out, into action. Like, for example, men who think they can physically transform into women because they think, that for themselves, existence (more often than not, denoted "reality") is whatever they want to think it is. That's not to try to pick a fight with anyone that agrees with them. Not interested in staking out a position or rejecting acceptance, just offering an example that expands the scope of this type of movement of mind beyond the forums, and out into real life. It's a negative example that reinforces your sentiment, as opposed to reefs' positive examples that offer a different perspective on it. Not because transformation is good or bad, but that it is going deeper into the dream, instead of moving toward a witnessing position. |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 9, 2024 8:35:50 GMT -5
I'm tired of this talk about whether I know you exist or I know the world exists. It's pure bs and only happens on websites like this. Anyone who says others are mere appearances can be dispelled of this with a good swift kick in the ass. If they persist, keep kicking them. They'll stop. It's nonsensical rubbish. Idiots trying to sound intelligent. They give nonduality a bad name. The truth is much more complex than stupid platitudes. It defies comprehension. That's the challenge. Not that questioning the reality of the "external" isn't useful. It can be. But it's a scalpel, only useful in the hands of someone who is skilled. In the hands of a pretender, it's dangerous. Why you get a bunch of whack jobs who've read a couple of Jed McKenna books running around telling folks how sublime they are, but you can't see it cause you're not. It's drivel. I have better things to do. bad mood much? I think I understand your sentiment even if I do dabble from time to time in the nonsense you call out. But it does occur to me that there are likely people with interests in the underlying topics that go beyond just talk and emerge out, into action. Like, for example, men who think they can physically transform into women because they think, that for themselves, existence (more often than not, denoted "reality") is whatever they want to think it is. That's not to try to pick a fight with anyone that agrees with them. Not interested in staking out a position or rejecting acceptance, just offering an example that expands the scope of this type of movement of mind beyond the forums, and out into real life. It's a negative example that reinforces your sentiment, as opposed to reefs' positive examples that offer a different perspective on it. Not because transformation is good or bad, but that it is going deeper into the dream, instead of moving toward a witnessing position. Yes, LOL. Definitely a hissy fit. Hurricane angst. Helene wiped out our daughter's house. 9 foot surge though 100 miles off shore. Luckily she evacuated. We've been trying to get her to sell to no avail. She's at 3 feet above sea level and her street floods now every high tide. This is her fourth inundation in as many years. We're prepping for Milton as I write. Scary storm! |
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Post by zendancer on Oct 9, 2024 10:54:43 GMT -5
bad mood much? I think I understand your sentiment even if I do dabble from time to time in the nonsense you call out. But it does occur to me that there are likely people with interests in the underlying topics that go beyond just talk and emerge out, into action. Like, for example, men who think they can physically transform into women because they think, that for themselves, existence (more often than not, denoted "reality") is whatever they want to think it is. That's not to try to pick a fight with anyone that agrees with them. Not interested in staking out a position or rejecting acceptance, just offering an example that expands the scope of this type of movement of mind beyond the forums, and out into real life. It's a negative example that reinforces your sentiment, as opposed to reefs' positive examples that offer a different perspective on it. Not because transformation is good or bad, but that it is going deeper into the dream, instead of moving toward a witnessing position. Yes, LOL. Definitely a hissy fit. Hurricane angst. Helene wiped out our daughter's house. 9 foot surge though 100 miles off shore. Luckily she evacuated. We've been trying to get her to sell to no avail. She's at 3 feet above sea level and her street floods now every high tide. This is her fourth inundation in as many years. We're prepping for Milton as I write. Scary storm! I can identify. We have a relative who lives in FL. The home was worth $700K in 2006, and I advised that they sell and move to a smaller home on higher ground, thereby locking in a $400K gain tax free. After the Great Recession, the home dropped in value to $350K. During the last 18 years the home has come back up to a value of about $700K again, and I recently advised them again to sell it and move. Now they're in the direct path of Milton. Even if a home doesn't get blown away or flooded, insurance rates are going through the roof, and may not even be available in FL in the future. As a retired contractor, I now look at home locations with three thoughts in mind--Can the property flood if a 20 inch rain in one day occurs? Is the property in a hurricane zone? and Is a forest fire in that area possible? CC is here. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 9, 2024 11:57:39 GMT -5
I finally got back to Zen Training, Methods and Philosophy by Katsuki Sekida. In Chapter 8, pgs 91-97, especially The Fourth Category, Neither man nor circumstances are deprived, he describes self-remembering very well. I'm not at home, I'll give some quotes later.
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Post by andrew on Oct 9, 2024 12:20:12 GMT -5
bad mood much? I think I understand your sentiment even if I do dabble from time to time in the nonsense you call out. But it does occur to me that there are likely people with interests in the underlying topics that go beyond just talk and emerge out, into action. Like, for example, men who think they can physically transform into women because they think, that for themselves, existence (more often than not, denoted "reality") is whatever they want to think it is. That's not to try to pick a fight with anyone that agrees with them. Not interested in staking out a position or rejecting acceptance, just offering an example that expands the scope of this type of movement of mind beyond the forums, and out into real life. It's a negative example that reinforces your sentiment, as opposed to reefs' positive examples that offer a different perspective on it. Not because transformation is good or bad, but that it is going deeper into the dream, instead of moving toward a witnessing position. Yes, LOL. Definitely a hissy fit. Hurricane angst. Helene wiped out our daughter's house. 9 foot surge though 100 miles off shore. Luckily she evacuated. We've been trying to get her to sell to no avail. She's at 3 feet above sea level and her street floods now every high tide. This is her fourth inundation in as many years. We're prepping for Milton as I write. Scary storm! A question I've been forced to consider many times in the last 10 years....how can I know what is right/wrong for another individual? How can I know what is right/wrong for me? I have a hunch the world might increasingly invite us (as spiritual folks) to ask this question of ourselves. Of course, the question is not meant to eliminate compassion or responsive/present moment action. I can still wish both you and your family well. |
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Post by inavalan on Oct 9, 2024 13:20:52 GMT -5
... not meant to eliminate compassion ... I believe that the most constructive thing you can do whenever you realize that you're feeling compassion is to generate positive expectations about the situation that caused your feelings. Prolonged compassion, no matter if you're doing something or not for the subject of your compassion, will exacerbate the problem as you perceive it. Adding to it fear and / or anger is even more detrimental to the situation as you perceive it. Your emotions attract into your reality situations that will cause the same kind of emotions, augmenting them. You don't want to attract into your reality more and more situations that cause you to feel more and more compassion. |
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Post by inavalan on Oct 9, 2024 14:57:41 GMT -5
A question I've been forced to consider many times in the last 10 years.... how can I know what is right/wrong for another individual? How can I know what is right/wrong for me? ... The questions we ask help or hinder our progress, and I think that a more basic question is: " what should I ask?". The usual answer that I get from my inner source of knowledge and guidance is: "what should I do? ... what should I do now?". This is because of my, inherently human, distorted perceptions about right and wrong, cause and effect, what we are, what we can do, what reality is, which are caused by our beliefs, emotions, lack of perspective, level of wisdom, ... |
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Post by andrew on Oct 9, 2024 14:59:11 GMT -5
... not meant to eliminate compassion ... I believe that the most constructive thing you can do whenever you realize that you're feeling compassion is to generate positive expectations about the situation that caused your feelings. Prolonged compassion, no matter if you're doing something or not for the subject of your compassion, will exacerbate the problem as you perceive it. Adding to it fear and / or anger is even more detrimental to the situation as you perceive it. Your emotions attract into your reality situations that will cause the same kind of emotions, augmenting them. You don't want to attract into your reality more and more situations that cause you to feel more and more compassion. yeah good points |
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Post by andrew on Oct 9, 2024 15:07:41 GMT -5
A question I've been forced to consider many times in the last 10 years.... how can I know what is right/wrong for another individual? How can I know what is right/wrong for me? ... The questions we ask help or hinder our progress, and I think that a more basic question is: " what should I ask?". The usual answer that I get from my inner source of knowledge and guidance is: "what should I do? ... what should I do now?". This is because of my, inherently human, distorted perceptions about right and wrong, cause and effect, what we are, what we can do, what reality is, which are caused by our beliefs, emotions, lack of perspective, level of wisdom, ... A point I used to make to my kids regularly was that our choices/behaviour (external and internal) is informed by questions we ask ourselves, though we often aren't aware...or don't pay attention.... to the questions we ask ourselves! We seem to be mostly conditioned to assume the questions we ask ourselves are inevitable. As if the questions we ask ourselves are the same, automatic, questions that everyone asks themselves. ''What should I do now'' is one I also ask myself often. Another one is, ''what would love do now'' or....''how would love express itself now''. Or, ''what is the path of least resistance here''. Or also, ''can I see myself NOT doing this'' (if it's something I'm not sure about). Also, ''what does life want from me, or for me, right now>'' Also, ''what does spirit suggest?'' Or....''is there a choice to be made right now?''. Plus others. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 9, 2024 17:06:14 GMT -5
bad mood much? I think I understand your sentiment even if I do dabble from time to time in the nonsense you call out. But it does occur to me that there are likely people with interests in the underlying topics that go beyond just talk and emerge out, into action. Like, for example, men who think they can physically transform into women because they think, that for themselves, existence (more often than not, denoted "reality") is whatever they want to think it is. That's not to try to pick a fight with anyone that agrees with them. Not interested in staking out a position or rejecting acceptance, just offering an example that expands the scope of this type of movement of mind beyond the forums, and out into real life. It's a negative example that reinforces your sentiment, as opposed to reefs' positive examples that offer a different perspective on it. Not because transformation is good or bad, but that it is going deeper into the dream, instead of moving toward a witnessing position. Yes, LOL. Definitely a hissy fit. Hurricane angst. Helene wiped out our daughter's house. 9 foot surge though 100 miles off shore. Luckily she evacuated. We've been trying to get her to sell to no avail. She's at 3 feet above sea level and her street floods now every high tide. This is her fourth inundation in as many years. We're prepping for Milton as I write. Scary storm! Whoa dude, toadally understandable, who has patience for existential questioners with that going on? Said a Hail Mary. Googled how to pray a full Rosary, and found this. Learn somethin' new every day. Best of luck, dear sir! |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 9, 2024 21:13:09 GMT -5
I finally got back to Zen Training, Methods and Philosophy by Katsuki Sekida. In Chapter 8, pgs 91-97, especially The Fourth Category, Neither man nor circumstances are deprived, he describes self-remembering very well. I'm not at home, I'll give some quotes later. I will make a few comments, not explain extensively, deliberately so. Sekida, where pertinent, does not mean reflexive thinking, he's indicating a certain kind of awareness. Also, there is not a one to one correspondence between self-remembering and what Sekida describes, see * below. On page 91 Sekida gives: Rinzai Zenji's Four Categories are as follows: (1) Man is deprived; circumstances are not deprived. (arrow pointing away from self -------> further described below) (2) Circumstances are deprived; man is not deprived. (arrow pointing to self <--------- ) (3) Both man and circumstances are deprived. (4) Neither man nor circumstances are deprived. Elsewhere Sekida mentions William James, so it sounds like he has read the chapter I mentioned some days ago, Principles of Psychology Vol. 1, the chapter Attention (also in The Briefer Course, an abridgment of volumes 1 and 2). James describes voluntary attention, Sekida uses the same language. Sekida describes: (1) "denotes a situation in which one's mind (attention) is absorbed in outward circumstances. ...We experience this kind of samadhi when we are watching a football game, reading, writing, thinking, fishing, looking at pictures, talking about the weather...In fact, we are at every moment absorbed in that moment's action or thought". In In Search of the Miraculous PD Ouspensky shows this as an arrow pointing away from ourselves -------> What Sekida describes here, Gurdjieff calls identification, this is what identification is. Sekida says: "When we are in this sort of samadhi we are quite forgetful of ourselves. ... The inner man is forgotten and outer circumstances occupy our whole attention". He goes on: "It should be remembered that consciousness works in two different ways, one directed outward, the other inward. When consciousness is concerned with outward matters, inward attention is forgotten, and vice versa". unquote But this is not necessarily the case. Ouspensky discusses division of attention. In this case, he shows an arrow pointing away, and simultaneously an arrow pointing to ourselves. ---------------> <-------------- I'm going to skip to (4), the most pertinent. "He goes out into the actual world of routine and lets his mind work with no hindrance , never losing the "man" he has established in his absolute samadhi. ....you spontaneously combine in yourself the first and third categories. ...A man may practice zazen and make certain progress in absolute samadhi and be successful in establishing the "man" within himself. Then a new problem will arise, that of how he can exercise this man in his actual life in the busy world. When sitting on a cushion doing zazen he can attain samadhi and experience the man, and can realize that the man is really his absolute self. But when he come out into his daily routine and eats, talks, and is active in his business, he often finds he has lost the inner man. ...things around him intrude into his mind or attract his eyes, and he finds he is distracted. Where has the man gone who was described as "not deprived" in the second category? ...but this is a case of passive, involuntary attention, in which anyone can be excited and shout, forgetting all other things, including the inner man. ...The victim is at the mercy of outer circumstances. ...Although the man is not on the stage, in genuine samadhi he is wakeful inside. In short, the student...is striving for the condition in which both the inner man and the outward concerns-man and circumstances-are not deprived but are freely in action. In the first category man was inactive; in the fourth category man has returned to the front line. ...Only maturity in Zen will secure this condition-the ultimate aim of Zen practice". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ When Sekida talks about the man here, he does not mean in any sense self-reflective thought. He talking about a certain kind of awareness, or consciousness. In category (1) ~it~ is not-there. You could say (1) Man is deprived; circumstances are not deprived, is a state of self-forgetting, "the man is not on the stage", "the inner man is forgotten", he more or less states so, you can derive that. In category (2) ~it~ is there. This is self-remembering {but not specifically-precisely so*, that is, not without qualification}. In the last sentence he says: "We will return to this topic in the final chapter". But reading this this chapter this morning I was quite astonished. The state Sekida is describing is not in any sense, ordinary, in fact, it is extraordinary. So when Sekida talks about the man, don't presume you know what he means, unless you do. I breezed through the earlier chapters about breathing, but, without saying specifically*, the why, I'd say they are [indirectly] foundational to chapter eight, and this post. |
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Post by inavalan on Oct 9, 2024 21:26:27 GMT -5
I finally got back to Zen Training, Methods and Philosophy by Katsuki Sekida. In Chapter 8, pgs 91-97, especially The Fourth Category, Neither man nor circZen Training, Methods and Philosophy by Katsuki Sekida. In Chapter 8umstances are deprived, he describes self-remembering very well. I'm not at home, I'll give some quotes later. - "A man may practice zazen and make certain progress in absolute samadhi and be successful in establishing the “man” within himself.
Then a new problem will arise, that of how he can exercise this man in his actual life in the busy world. When sitting on the cushion doing zazen he can attain samadhi and experience the man, and can realize that the man is really his absolute self. But when he comes out into his daily routine and eats, talks, and is active in his business, he often finds he has lost the inner man. He wonders how he can manage to maintain the man in himself in his daily life.
To take another example, the Zen student may be told first to work on Mu. At first he does not know what to do with this Mu. But in the course of practice he comes to know Mu in the pure condition of his existence that appears in his samadhi, and he realizes that Mu is his own true self. But when returning to actual life he finds that even in walking his Mu is disturbed, and he is unable to maintain the condition he enjoyed in his samadhi. When he moves his spoon to his mouth, or stretches his hand to something on the table, his mind is not in the same condition as in the samadhi that he experienced at sesshin time, at the monastery or elsewhere. He would sweep, broom in hand, earnestly trying to maintain the Mu, but alas! things around him intrude into his mind or attract his eyes, and he finds he is distracted. Circumstances are rampant; man has no place to settle down in his mind. Where has the man gone who was described as “not deprived” in the second category?"
--- "Zen Training, Methods and Philosophy" by Katsuki Sekida link
When the rubber meets the road ... |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 10, 2024 3:31:48 GMT -5
Yes, LOL. Definitely a hissy fit. Hurricane angst. Helene wiped out our daughter's house. 9 foot surge though 100 miles off shore. Luckily she evacuated. We've been trying to get her to sell to no avail. She's at 3 feet above sea level and her street floods now every high tide. This is her fourth inundation in as many years. We're prepping for Milton as I write. Scary storm! Whoa dude, toadally understandable, who has patience for existential questioners with that going on? Said a Hail Mary. Googled how to pray a full Rosary, and found this. Learn somethin' new every day. Best of luck, dear sir! Appreciate the prayers. We've been very lucky so far. A few close calls with tornadoes yesterday. Lots of rain. At one point 2 inches fell in 20 minutes. Luckily I live in a community that was built to handle that kind of rain event. And all the power lines are underground so we never lose power. Regardless during the heavy rain our screened back porch was filling up with water and the wife and I were busy bailing it out for a couple of hours, a good workout. Milton's eye just passed over. It was eerily quiet for awhile. The wind is starting to pick up again, the back end of the hurricane. More rain. Perhaps more bailing. We've been up all night. Like I said, we were lucky. Folks just to the north of us are getting rainfall measured in feet. They're on the dirty side of the hurricane. It's funny how the mind struggles in times like this. Eventually adrenaline kicks in and the mind, the thought engine, is seen for what it is, just an unnecessary appendage, quite superfluous. |
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bad mood much? 