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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 25, 2024 10:15:44 GMT -5
Michaels is saying the manifest world is the (subjective) box. He's saying it's possible to experience outside the box (not just have a realization of-it).
Is he living from outside the box then? I just found the guy, this morning. Although browsing his some 60 books, I recognize I have one of his books, I didn't read it in full. It's about ego and illusion (those words are in the title). But his view is very complicated. It's basically the *Theosophical [Society]* view of reality, which I started reading at age 17. In the video he explains ~levels~ of reality, he says there are 4 basic levels, the physical, the emotional (Astral), the Mental, I forget his 4th label (but it would be the Causal level). I don't know if for him it's all conceptual, or more. He mentions having had mystical experiences, by way of which he has touched-experienced the "Objective" (out of the box). What he calls an Ascended Master would be the highest level of human being (perpetually in contact with the higher world, outside the box). I would doubt he is an Ascended Master, and doubt he makes such a claim. |
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Post by sharon on Aug 25, 2024 11:05:40 GMT -5
Would that make it a mystery?  In one sense, very much so, yes. But in another .. (** glances out window **) ... the scent of late summer, is sweet. There is a cicada singing about it. Wow! First time ever hearing that. I imagine it's fairly familiar to you though? |
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Post by sharon on Aug 25, 2024 11:06:47 GMT -5
He's just saying Consciousness is the origin. I thought everybody here agreed on that much. You can reduce what he said to the point of the anodyne but he still said it. "Consciousness", like "reality" .. well, it depends what you're referring to. He referred to non-dual pointers as "superficial". This is true, but only if you ignore what people mean by them.Radical point man!  |
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Post by sharon on Aug 25, 2024 11:16:56 GMT -5
Is he living from outside the box then? I just found the guy, this morning. Although browsing his some 60 books, I recognize I have one of his books, I didn't read it in full. It's about ego and illusion (those words are in the title). But his view is very complicated. It's basically the *Theosophical [Society]* view of reality, which I started reading at age 17. In the video he explains ~levels~ of reality, he says there are 4 basic levels, the physical, the emotional (Astral), the Mental, I forget his 4th label (but it would be the Causal level). I don't know if for him it's all conceptual, or more. He mentions having had mystical experiences, by way of which he has touched-experienced the "Objective" (out of the box). What he calls an Ascended Master would be the highest level of human being (perpetually in contact with the higher world, outside the box). I would doubt he is an Ascended Master, and doubt he makes such a claim. It looks like it's better to call them Masters of Ancient Wisdom now. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 25, 2024 11:17:40 GMT -5
You can reduce what he said to the point of the anodyne but he still said it. "Consciousness", like "reality" .. well, it depends what you're referring to. He referred to non-dual pointers as "superficial". This is true, but only if you ignore what people mean by them.Radical point man! ya' think?  |
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Post by sharon on Aug 25, 2024 11:18:35 GMT -5
Radical point man! ya' think? |
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Post by Gopal on Aug 26, 2024 20:21:16 GMT -5
I believe that my only source of information there is, is my inner source of knowledge and guidance. There is no objective physical reality. There are only subjective realities. Tell me there is no objective reality and then step off the top of the Empire State Building, and tell me there is no objective reality. If you examine carefully, you’ll realize that you’ve never seen a moon outside of yourself. Since birth, you’ve been observing a moon that exists within your own consciousness. The moon you witness is a product of your mind. You assume that your perceptions come from external sources based on what you see. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 26, 2024 21:25:49 GMT -5
Tell me there is no objective reality and then step off the top of the Empire State Building, and tell me there is no objective reality. If you examine carefully, you’ll realize that you’ve never seen a moon outside of yourself. Since birth, you’ve been observing a moon that exists within your own consciousness. The moon you witness is a product of your mind. You assume that your perceptions come from external sources based on what you see. Agree. (We've had this conversation years ago). |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 3, 2024 21:22:35 GMT -5
In zazen, in as few words as possible, what do you experience?
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 4, 2024 8:09:42 GMT -5
In zazen, in as few words as possible, what do you experience? Discomfort. Thoughts about discomfort. Thoughts about ST posts that trouble me. There comes a point when all this disappears and I forget the who, what, where of what I call me. Then the gong sounds and it all comes back with a jar. Zazen is an acquired taste, like classical music. I hated it, but my mother played it constantly until I began to love it. You need a persistent mother to be able to keep at it. It's not for everyone. Why do you ask? |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 4, 2024 9:10:41 GMT -5
I'm tired of this talk about whether I know you exist or I know the world exists. It's pure bs and only happens on websites like this.
Anyone who says others are mere appearances can be dispelled of this with a good swift kick in the ass. If they persist, keep kicking them. They'll stop.
It's nonsensical rubbish. Idiots trying to sound intelligent. They give nonduality a bad name.
The truth is much more complex than stupid platitudes. It defies comprehension. That's the challenge.
Not that questioning the reality of the "external" isn't useful. It can be. But it's a scalpel, only useful in the hands of someone who is skilled. In the hands of a pretender, it's dangerous.
Why you get a bunch of whack jobs who've read a couple of Jed McKenna books running around telling folks how sublime they are, but you can't see it cause you're not. It's drivel. I have better things to do.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 4, 2024 9:27:49 GMT -5
In zazen, in as few words as possible, what do you experience? Discomfort. Thoughts about discomfort. Thoughts about ST posts that trouble me. There comes a point when all this disappears and I forget the who, what, where of what I call me. Then the gong sounds and it all comes back with a jar. Zazen is an acquired taste, like classical music. I hated it, but my mother played it constantly until I began to love it. You need a persistent mother to be able to keep at it. It's not for everyone. Why do you ask?Just circling back around to the OP. {(And no, I will neither affirm a correct answer nor deny an incorrect answer. A correct answer is self-validating)}. But you gave a very good answer, following this. |
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Post by Reefs on Oct 4, 2024 9:41:21 GMT -5
I'm tired of this talk about whether I know you exist or I know the world exists. It's pure bs and only happens on websites like this.Anyone who says others are mere appearances can be dispelled of this with a good swift kick in the ass. If they persist, keep kicking them. They'll stop. It's nonsensical rubbish. Idiots trying to sound intelligent. They give nonduality a bad name. The truth is much more complex than stupid platitudes. It defies comprehension. That's the challenge. Not that questioning the reality of the "external" isn't useful. It can be. But it's a scalpel, only useful in the hands of someone who is skilled. In the hands of a pretender, it's dangerous. Why you get a bunch of whack jobs who've read a couple of Jed McKenna books running around telling folks how sublime they are, but you can't see it cause you're not. It's drivel. I have better things to do. I get your point but I see it a bit differently. Those are legitimate questions. And people actually do ask such questions in all sincerity. For many it is the beginning stages of the onions to pearls process.
There is also an entire discipline of philosophy dedicated to such questions. It is called epistemology (i.e. how do we know what we know?) In fact, epistemology is also one of the main pillars of the TAV approach and jnana yoga. In Buddhism you have something similar (see Nagarjuna).
So, epistemology has always been an integral part of non-duality teachings like Advaita and Buddhism. Ideally though, epistemology should be practiced under the guidance of an experienced teacher who won't allow his students to get lost in idle mentation. Because when that happens, you get Jed McKennas. And that often happens on such forums, I agree.
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Post by laughter on Oct 5, 2024 13:20:37 GMT -5
In zazen, in as few words as possible, what do you experience? heightened awareness of awareness |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 5, 2024 13:27:55 GMT -5
In zazen, in as few words as possible, what do you experience? heightened awareness of awareness Yes, but there's less, too. And sometimes less is more. |
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