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Post by laughter on Oct 8, 2023 10:32:16 GMT -5
Many people who write about realizing the existential truth often speak and write about it in ways that are quite varied. This reflects the incredibly vast possible breadth of human experience, despite the singular commonality of that truth. Now, the one common denominator I've ever read by folks who write about significant existential realization is an end to the fear of death. To be clear, this is not the end of the self-preservation instinct, nor is it the end of engagement with life. It's not that you don't care if you die, nor is it just an acceptance of the inevitability. It is also not the embrace of the promise of some sort of continuation, some sort of afterlife. It is, rather, a felt understanding that death is not the end of existence. I'll indulge myself in a personal anecdote to illustrate. I once read something (author long ago forgotten) that went something like this: "When I was young, like most young people, I never thought of my own death, I thought myself essentially immortal". Now, I can relate to this to some extent, but just like Tucker Carlson's five-year-old, I remember bawling after learning that all of my family members would die when I was a child (tee hee  ). But certainly, after the rush of young adulthood, for many years I never gave it a passing conscious thought. The author went on: "Then came a day when I considered my own mortality". While the forgotten author's writing wasn't the first time I had considered my own mortality, it is the first one that I specifically remember the details of now. I was 29 or 30, at the time, as I recall. He continued: "After that day, I started to think about my death more often, until eventually the day came when I thought about it at least once from every day forward". Now, perhaps this was a sort of post-hypnotic suggestion, but I found my experience mirroring this as time went on. I never got to the point of "every day", but the frequency increased. As an atheist/agnostic/secularist, I had no affinity toward nor attraction to any notion of an afterlife or re-incarnation. I simply rejected and dismissed these ideas out-of-hand. What I did have was a naturally ingrained sort of stoic conditioning that involved simply rationally accepting the fact of the inevitable. But every now and then, out of the blue, I'd consider the thought of it, and feel a deep sense of visceral panic. It was always quite fleeting, as the stoic conditioning would quickly catch into gear. And I came to understand (looking back, in particular), that it was the thought and non-conceptual contemplation of non-existence (always suddenly emerging unbidden from the subconscious) that was at the root of this. My story of realizing the truth involves looking inward and becoming conscious of the content and dynamic of my own mind - and not in an objective, rational, psychiatric sense, but rather, in the sense of the witness as is described by Advaita sages such as Nisargadatta. Anyway, I went looking for that old sense of panic .. afterwards. No luck.  -------------------- The world today is going through a series of upheavals that are quite extraordinary by the standards of the relative peace of the America of my youth. True enough that we exported much of our conflict during those years, so this is not necessarily anything much more extreme at the moment for many groups of people around the world than usual. And, after all, humans have had the capacity for nuclear devastation since even before I was born, and we've come pretty close several times. But still, there are matters of degree of ongoing carnage wordwide today - and out of respect for the no-politics rule I'm going to refrain from specifics and respectfully request that anyone reading this do the same in this thread. It's easy now though, to be present to this suffering without ignoring it or be carried away by it - although certainly, I have to admit to being quite physically remote from it. Not everyone who realizes the existential truth prays or intentionally tries to maintain an inner vibration to facilitate an attenuation of the suffering of those experiencing extreme violence. But, it is easy for those who have passed the gateless gate to do so. This is a melody not everyone has heard. There is no accomplishment to this, and it does not diminish those who have not yet heard. But those who have will understand what I mean by that ease. And that's not to say that there might not be some sort of calling to fight. Can we fight, without becoming what we fight against? Regardless of this possibility, however, the suffering is needless. The pain is self-inflicted. There are no good guys, there are no bad guys. Only murderers. Some of them for a cause, some of them for profit. All of them the relative cause of mayhem, albeit that those causes are essentially arbitrary creations of mind. To those of you on this site of the gate not previously so inclined to pray for those suffering so, not inclined to meditate on the issue, not previously inclined to deliberately extend a vibration of love to the combatants and collateral casualties .. I invite you to do so. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Oct 8, 2023 12:39:41 GMT -5
Many people who write about realizing the existential truth often speak and write about it in ways that are quite varied. This reflects the incredibly vast possible breadth of human experience, despite the singular commonality of that truth. Now, the one common denominator I've ever read by folks who write about significant existential realization is an end to the fear of death. To be clear, this is not the end of the self-preservation instinct, nor is it the end of engagement with life. It's not that you don't care if you die, nor is it just an acceptance of the inevitability. It is also not the embrace of the promise of some sort of continuation, some sort of afterlife. It is, rather, a felt understanding that death is not the end of existence. I'll indulge myself in a personal anecdote to illustrate. Beautiful reflections. Although I'm not sure one could really come up with any rule about the contents of the mind that are compatible or incompatible with self-realization. Christ himself on the cross cries out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Might that be interpreted as the fear of death? Perhaps -- in a view from the outside. And is there ever any other view? |
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Post by inavalan on Oct 8, 2023 12:45:19 GMT -5
An analogy: - "Then you were told that you had to put those letters together to make words. Again you made many mistakes, and forgot them as with delight you now wrote separate words. Then you were told to put the words into sentences, and you followed the same procedure. You forgot your mistakes. Were you stupid or dumb—or an asshole—when you could only form simple letters? Obviously not. Your aspirations and your curiosity kept leading you toward a more complete development, until you could finally read and write whole paragraphs."
—TPS5 Session 917 (Deleted Portion) May 21, 1980
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Post by sharon on Oct 8, 2023 13:05:59 GMT -5
Many people who write about realizing the existential truth often speak and write about it in ways that are quite varied. This reflects the incredibly vast possible breadth of human experience, despite the singular commonality of that truth. Now, the one common denominator I've ever read by folks who write about significant existential realization is an end to the fear of death. To be clear, this is not the end of the self-preservation instinct, nor is it the end of engagement with life. It's not that you don't care if you die, nor is it just an acceptance of the inevitability. It is also not the embrace of the promise of some sort of continuation, some sort of afterlife. It is, rather, a felt understanding that death is not the end of existence. I'll indulge myself in a personal anecdote to illustrate. Beautiful reflections. Although I'm not sure one could really come up with any rule about the contents of the mind that are compatible or incompatible with self-realization. Christ himself on the cross cries out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Might that be interpreted as the fear of death? Perhaps -- in a view from the outside. And is there ever any other view?Enigma used to say.. that although Jesus may have said those words, in Reality, God had become Christ. So no forsaking was actually happening. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Oct 8, 2023 13:57:09 GMT -5
Beautiful reflections. Although I'm not sure one could really come up with any rule about the contents of the mind that are compatible or incompatible with self-realization. Christ himself on the cross cries out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Might that be interpreted as the fear of death? Perhaps -- in a view from the outside. And is there ever any other view?Enigma used to say.. that although Jesus may have said those words, in Reality, God had become Christ. So no forsaking was actually happening. It's a good point. Though of course, in the end, of whom can that be said not to be true? The inimitable Catholic mystic Simone Weil also had something interesting to say about this situation: Nothing in the world can rob us of the power to say 'I'. Nothing except extreme affliction. Nothing is worse than extreme affliction which destroys the 'I' from outside, because after that we can no longer destroy it ourselves. What happens to those whose 'I' has been destroyed from outside by affliction? It is not possible to imagine anything for them but annihilation according to the atheistic or materialistic conception.
Though they may have lost their 'I', it does not mean that they have no more egoism. Quite the reverse. To be sure, this may occasionally happen when a dog-like devotion is brought about, but at other times the being is reduced to naked, vegetative egoism.
An egoism without an 'I'.
So long as we ourselves have begun the process of destroying the 'I' , we can prevent any affliction from causing harm. For the 'I' is not destroyed by external pressure without a violent revolt. If for the love of God we refuse to give ourselves over to this revolt, the destruction does not take place from outside but from within.
Redemptive suffering. If a human being who is in a state of perfection and has through grace completely destroyed the 'I' in himself, falls into that degree of affliction which corresponds for him to the destruction of the 'I' from outside - we have there the cross in its fullness. Affliction can no longer destroy the 'I' in him for the 'I' in him no longer exists, having completely disappeared and left the place to God. But affliction produces an effect which is equivalent, on the plane of perfection, to the exterior destruction of the 'I'. It produces the absence of God. 'My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?'
What is this absence of God produced by extreme affliction within the perfect soul ? What is the value which is attached to it and which is known as redemptive suffering?
Redemptive suffering is that by which evil really has fullness of being to the utmost extent of its capacity.
By redemptive suffering, God is present in extreme evil. For the absence of God is the mode of divine presence which corresponds to evil - absence which is felt. He who has not God within himself cannot feel his presence.
It is the purity, the perfection, the plenitude, the abyss of evil. ... External destruction with which the soul associates itself through love is expiatory suffering. The bringing about of the absence of God in a soul completely emptied of self through love is redemptive suffering. |
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Post by andrew on Oct 8, 2023 16:47:41 GMT -5
Liked that a lot. That sounds a bit inadequate, but don't have energy today to say more. But I did like it a lot.
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 9, 2023 5:18:37 GMT -5
You can only love your enemies if you recognize who they truly are. Peace.
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Post by Reefs on Oct 9, 2023 7:59:42 GMT -5
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 9, 2023 9:49:38 GMT -5
Yes. Sometimes the only choices are quite ugly, that is, you have to chew your leg off. But you and I are not Arjuna. Strife is ever present somewhere. We just selectively tune in to the horror. So many conflicts go unnoticed. My wife was tuning in on the attacks in Israel. I could hear people screaming and wailing in the other room. I think she could relate to the Israeli plight. She said she hated the Hamas people cheering murder. I remember Israellis picnicking and cheering the destruction of Gaza last go-round in this thousand year war. I'm more focused on the rage and hatred in me, not to say it's something I need help with. But rather it's the best and probably the only thing I can do, to be aware of it, make room for it, rather than suppress it. You and I know where that leads. |
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Post by inavalan on Oct 9, 2023 11:09:30 GMT -5
We are here to face situations, to learn and practice dealing with them, then to eventually graduate. The spiritual development of all flavors is about consciously doing this learning, not about escapism. Without spiritual development we choose and respond randomly, intellectualizing what's happening, following misleading advice.
Everything we experience is brought by our beliefs, expectations, emotions. Not appropriately addressing the limiting and detrimental ones, allows their escalation, and causes more and more pain and suffering.
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Post by inavalan on Oct 9, 2023 11:24:50 GMT -5
We are here to face situations, to learn and practice dealing with them, then to eventually graduate. The spiritual development of all flavors is about consciously doing this learning, not about escapism. Without spiritual development we choose and respond randomly, intellectualizing what's happening, following misleading advice. Everything we experience is brought by our beliefs, expectations, emotions. Not appropriately addressing the limiting and detrimental ones, allows their escalation, and causes more and more pain and suffering. That story can and should be interpreted this way, line by line. Same with all the events and situations we observe. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 10, 2023 14:34:28 GMT -5
Many people who write about realizing the existential truth often speak and write about it in ways that are quite varied. This reflects the incredibly vast possible breadth of human experience, despite the singular commonality of that truth. Now, the one common denominator I've ever read by folks who write about significant existential realization is an end to the fear of death. To be clear, this is not the end of the self-preservation instinct, nor is it the end of engagement with life. It's not that you don't care if you die, nor is it just an acceptance of the inevitability. It is also not the embrace of the promise of some sort of continuation, some sort of afterlife. It is, rather, a felt understanding that death is not the end of existence. I'll indulge myself in a personal anecdote to illustrate. Beautiful reflections. Although I'm not sure one could really come up with any rule about the contents of the mind that are compatible or incompatible with self-realization. Christ himself on the cross cries out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Might that be interpreted as the fear of death? Perhaps -- in a view from the outside. And is there ever any other view? I'd file that one under the limits of the distinction between pain and suffering, as he'd been up there for three hours at that point. He didn't show any fear at Gethsemane after all. While what you say may be outside of my current capacity of imagination, I've (re-)learned not to dismiss any notion on that basis alone. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 10, 2023 14:50:38 GMT -5
Yes. Sometimes the only choices are quite ugly, that is, you have to chew your leg off. But you and I are not Arjuna. Strife is ever present somewhere. We just selectively tune in to the horror. So many conflicts go unnoticed. My wife was tuning in on the attacks in Israel. I could hear people screaming and wailing in the other room. I think she could relate to the Israeli plight. She said she hated the Hamas people cheering murder. I remember Israellis picnicking and cheering the destruction of Gaza last go-round in this thousand year war. I'm more focused on the rage and hatred in me, not to say it's something I need help with. But rather it's the best and probably the only thing I can do, to be aware of it, make room for it, rather than suppress it. You and I know where that leads. Yes, regardless of perspective relative to the gateless gate, "clean up your own house". And not "clean up your own house so then you can go out and clean up the world". Just .. clean up your own house ... it's one of the facets of that ease the thread title refers to. |
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Post by siftingtothetruth on Oct 10, 2023 21:03:33 GMT -5
Beautiful reflections. Although I'm not sure one could really come up with any rule about the contents of the mind that are compatible or incompatible with self-realization. Christ himself on the cross cries out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Might that be interpreted as the fear of death? Perhaps -- in a view from the outside. And is there ever any other view? I'd file that one under the limits of the distinction between pain and suffering, as he'd been up there for three hours at that point. He didn't show any fear at Gethsemane after all. While what you say may be outside of my current capacity of imagination, I've (re-)learned not to dismiss any notion on that basis alone. Interesting what you say about Gethsemane. Here's Matthew 26:36-46 on his time there: 36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go over there and pray.” 37 And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” 40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 42 Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.” 43 And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said to them, “Sleep and take your rest later on. See, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going; see, my betrayer is at hand.”
And he prays that way three times. Not precisely fear perhaps, of the prospect of his imminent death... but not quite what anyone might call serene indifference either, no? Or, in song  : |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 10, 2023 21:18:53 GMT -5
I'd file that one under the limits of the distinction between pain and suffering, as he'd been up there for three hours at that point. He didn't show any fear at Gethsemane after all. While what you say may be outside of my current capacity of imagination, I've (re-)learned not to dismiss any notion on that basis alone. Interesting what you say about Gethsemane. Here's Matthew 26:36-46 on his time there: 36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go over there and pray.” 37 And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” 40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 42 Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.” 43 And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said to them, “Sleep and take your rest later on. See, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going; see, my betrayer is at hand.”
And he prays that way three times. Not precisely fear perhaps, of the prospect of his imminent death... but not quite what anyone might call serene indifference either, no? Or, in song : One of the gospels said he sweat blood in Gethsemane. earlychurchhistory.org/medicine/jesus-sweats-real-blood-in-gethsemane/Dr. Luke, the only Gentile to write books in the Bible, is the biographer who mentions in the beginning of the Gethsemane passage that Jesus “being in anguish, prayed more earnestly and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.” Is this hyperbole or could it be possible that Jesus actually sweated blood during his ordeal in Gethsemane? Yes, it is probable. There is a very rare disorder called Hematidrosis: “excretion of blood or blood pigment in the sweat….An extremely rare condition characterized by the sweating of blood which is said to occur when a person is facing death or other highly stressful conditions.” Only Luke, the physician, mentioned this part of His Passion because it is of medical significance. There have been other cases where people have “sweated actual blood:” e.g. before execution, during the London blitz in WW II, the case of a lady who was being raped, a sailor broke into bloody sweat during a storm at sea. An 11-year-old child in 1918 had hematidrosis frequently. Upon microscopic examination by Dr. C.T. Scott, her sweat revealed red blood corpuscles and some white corpuscles. The explanation seems to be that under conditions of great emotional/physical stress tiny capillaries in the sweat glands can rupture. Blood is thus mingled with perspiration. |
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). But certainly, after the rush of young adulthood, for many years I never gave it a passing conscious thought. The author went on:
: