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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 10, 2023 21:24:31 GMT -5
Many people who write about realizing the existential truth often speak and write about it in ways that are quite varied. This reflects the incredibly vast possible breadth of human experience, despite the singular commonality of that truth. Now, the one common denominator I've ever read by folks who write about significant existential realization is an end to the fear of death. To be clear, this is not the end of the self-preservation instinct, nor is it the end of engagement with life. It's not that you don't care if you die, nor is it just an acceptance of the inevitability. It is also not the embrace of the promise of some sort of continuation, some sort of afterlife. It is, rather, a felt understanding that death is not the end of existence. I'll indulge myself in a personal anecdote to illustrate. Beautiful reflections. Although I'm not sure one could really come up with any rule about the contents of the mind that are compatible or incompatible with self-realization. Christ himself on the cross cries out "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Might that be interpreted as the fear of death? Perhaps -- in a view from the outside. And is there ever any other view? Most of what Jesus said on the cross, he was quoting scripture. This is found in Psalm 22:1 But when it came to describing Jesus’ death scene itself, another text was particularly important: Psalm 22. In addition to showing how Jesus dies “according to the scriptures, ” it also is an eloquent presentation of the suffering of an innocent one who suffers precisely because of his faithfulness to God’s will, and of someone who is ultimately vindicated by God. “And they crucified him, and divided his clothes among them, casting lots to decide what each should take ” (Mark 15:24; Matthew 27:35) recalls Psalm 22:18, “They divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots. “ “Those who passed by derided him, shaking their heads and saying” (Mark 15:29; Matthew 27:39) recalls Psalm 22:7, “All who see me mock me‚ they shake their heads. “ “Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ‘Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?’ which is translated, ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’ ” (Mark 15:34; Matthew 27:46) is a direct quotation from Psalm 22:1. Ever hear Paul Harvey, "And now you know, the rest of the story". Maybe Jesus was just saying: Read Psalm 22. |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 11, 2023 9:00:11 GMT -5
Many years ago, I had a conversation with an Islamist, many years before 9/11. We were discussing Israel and the Palestinians. I told him that I understood going after military targets, the IDF. But I didn't understand killing children. I mentioned the Ma'alot Massacre. His response was that children are born with Islam in their hearts, but their parents corrupt them, so by killing them, they're spared hell. This is the grim reality. When you let hate harden you to madness, this is the kind of reasoning that blossoms. Peace.
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Post by laughter on Oct 11, 2023 13:50:09 GMT -5
I'd file that one under the limits of the distinction between pain and suffering, as he'd been up there for three hours at that point. He didn't show any fear at Gethsemane after all. While what you say may be outside of my current capacity of imagination, I've (re-)learned not to dismiss any notion on that basis alone.  Interesting what you say about Gethsemane. Here's Matthew 26:36-46 on his time there: 36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to his disciples, “Sit here, while I go over there and pray.” 37 And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me.” 39 And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” 40 And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping. And he said to Peter, “So, could you not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 42 Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.” 43 And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44 So, leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words again. 45 Then he came to the disciples and said to them, “Sleep and take your rest later on. See, the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us be going; see, my betrayer is at hand.”
And he prays that way three times. Not precisely fear perhaps, of the prospect of his imminent death... but not quite what anyone might call serene indifference either, no? Or, in song  : " ... ♪ before I change my mind ♫.. " Aces! Personal anecdote: Mom took me to this when it first came out. They'd kept me out of church. Got baptized, but that was it. So Webber's musical (the movie) was my first exposure, and I had no idea at the time (I was about 10) the context or significance of it. The movie was also my only childhood exposure. I was a little heathen savage I was. Kant thank you enough for posting this and engaging dude! "The flesh is weak", but he did know what was coming, went willingly, and didn't flinch at the trial and he didn't help Pilates attempt at an off ramp. He certainly was quite human, after all. Crucifixion is a gruesome way to go and from what I've read/viewed it usually took many long hours, because the cause of death was suffocation. They were egging him on to perform a miracle while he hung there, and God answered his call to end the pain. Not much of a wonder that this story has endured all this time, even if one were to discount what can be found in  prayer. Given current events, figure I'll just put the 'mounty sermon thingy here just for grins ... Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Oct 11, 2023 13:59:31 GMT -5
Many years ago, I had a conversation with an Islamist, many years before 9/11. We were discussing Israel and the Palestinians. I told him that I understood going after military targets, the IDF. But I didn't understand killing children. I mentioned the Ma'alot Massacre. His response was that children are born with Islam in their hearts, but their parents corrupt them, so by killing them, they're spared hell. This is the grim reality. When you let hate harden you to madness, this is the kind of reasoning that blossoms. Peace.  |
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Post by laughter on Oct 11, 2023 14:18:47 GMT -5
Many years ago, I had a conversation with an Islamist, many years before 9/11. We were discussing Israel and the Palestinians. I told him that I understood going after military targets, the IDF. But I didn't understand killing children. I mentioned the Ma'alot Massacre. His response was that children are born with Islam in their hearts, but their parents corrupt them, so by killing them, they're spared hell. This is the grim reality. When you let hate harden you to madness, this is the kind of reasoning that blossoms. Peace. And while I can't speak for anyone else I can definitely say but for the grace of God I'd have gone the way of hate just like that guy. To riff off of what reefs wrote here, there certainly is no shortage of calls for our attention to focus on outrage, self-righteousness and retribution. This has always been the case to some extent, but seems to me quite amplified in a ramp-up that stretches back quite a few years now. I call it the "dark magicians". But just looking away, just ignoring it, this is not the way. It's actually quite easy and effortless to attend to the hate without returning it on the far side of the gateless gate, once one has realized, in existential terms, what the source of that hatred is. |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 12, 2023 9:34:21 GMT -5
Many years ago, I had a conversation with an Islamist, many years before 9/11. We were discussing Israel and the Palestinians. I told him that I understood going after military targets, the IDF. But I didn't understand killing children. I mentioned the Ma'alot Massacre. His response was that children are born with Islam in their hearts, but their parents corrupt them, so by killing them, they're spared hell. This is the grim reality. When you let hate harden you to madness, this is the kind of reasoning that blossoms. Peace. And while I can't speak for anyone else I can definitely say but for the grace of God I'd have gone the way of hate just like that guy. To riff off of what reefs wrote here, there certainly is no shortage of calls for our attention to focus on outrage, self-righteousness and retribution. This has always been the case to some extent, but seems to me quite amplified in a ramp-up that stretches back quite a few years now. I call it the "dark magicians". But just looking away, just ignoring it, this is not the way. It's actually quite easy and effortless to attend to the hate without returning it on the far side of the gateless gate, once one has realized, in existential terms, what the source of that hatred is. Our assessment of the socio-political landscape is quite different. I won't go into it to avoid becoming embroiled in an argument. The only dark magician I care about is in the mirror. My view is if and when I'm to act in that regard it'll happen effortlessly. I think I've said this before, I got involved in local politics here and my body quite literally rebelled. I took the hint and disengaged. Needless to say, even in local politics, the level of vitriol and racism is daunting. Folks threatened my life. I keep a low profile now in that regard. Not out of fear, but because I recognize it's not something I'm meant to do. My focus is solely on cultivating the little flame of love spawned by my shift in focus away from objects. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 13, 2023 8:57:21 GMT -5
And while I can't speak for anyone else I can definitely say but for the grace of God I'd have gone the way of hate just like that guy. To riff off of what reefs wrote here, there certainly is no shortage of calls for our attention to focus on outrage, self-righteousness and retribution. This has always been the case to some extent, but seems to me quite amplified in a ramp-up that stretches back quite a few years now. I call it the "dark magicians". But just looking away, just ignoring it, this is not the way. It's actually quite easy and effortless to attend to the hate without returning it on the far side of the gateless gate, once one has realized, in existential terms, what the source of that hatred is. Our assessment of the socio-political landscape is quite different. I won't go into it to avoid becoming embroiled in an argument. The only dark magician I care about is in the mirror. My view is if and when I'm to act in that regard it'll happen effortlessly. I think I've said this before, I got involved in local politics here and my body quite literally rebelled. I took the hint and disengaged. Needless to say, even in local politics, the level of vitriol and racism is daunting. Folks threatened my life. I keep a low profile now in that regard. Not out of fear, but because I recognize it's not something I'm meant to do. My focus is solely on cultivating the little flame of love spawned by my shift in focus away from objects. It might not be as different as you think. To my eye every war the U.S. has fought in my lifetime was precipitated by the dark magicians. That's not to say that an adult outlook on the circumstances and results in terms of nuance isn't also possible. But, in my view, the big picture is entirely corrupt and relatively causative of massive and uncountable suffering. That's wild about the threats. FWIW, I find that beyond reprehensible, regardless of whatever your policy views might have been. |
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prayer. 