The Fat Conundrum

[stardustpilgrim]

I decided not to battle lolly on his nutrition thread, or "pollute" it further. He gives very good advice on nutrition. So I decided to post information I've come across and use. I've had this book for years, but never read it in full, Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubes, 2010. I used to battle my sister about weight loss theory, I was a proponent of calories in versus calories out. We went back and forth for years, she finally convinced me this was not the way to look at fat gain and fat loss. I argued it was simple, a calorie is a measure of energy, in physics. It took a long time to realize we're not dealing with physics, but with biology. I found another most excellent book which came two days ago, I've started it also, Why We Get Sick by Benjamin Bikman PhD, 2020. It's going to become my new Bible, but I'll get to it later. Additionally, I quit underlining books about 3 years ago. I used to underline for quick reference to go back to. But I realized I will not get to reading all the books I already have, so forget about reviewing past-reads. And, marked used books are considerably worth less than unmarked books. So this thread will be essentially my notes. Oh, one last thing, my first priority is to get to my final weight, that's losing 50 lbs, down to 176. (That means, 173-178, because your daily weight can fluctuate, and with a higher number, you shouldn't think, oh, no, I'm gaining weight!). I will incorporate eating nutritionally into losing the weight. I've been fasting since Sunday night about 9:00 PM. My guys are saying you can eat up to 500 calories on (24 hour) fast days. I've held to that so I can take my with-food supplements. Hunger has been no problem. I had planned to stop this fast Thursday morning, but I may continue as it has gone well. I just-like-to-eat, so after this fast I will go back to at maximum 16-8, 16 hours fasting with an 8 hour window eating, IF, daily. (I may thrown in 1 or 2 24 hour fast per week, this has gone so well. That really means 38 hours fasting, keeping to the pattern). I'm sure I can do this the rest of my life, as the benefits are extraordinary, outweigh my tongue. Most important, don't eat at least 3 hours before bedtime. Disclaimer, this isn't advice, just information. Where did I get the 3 & 1/2 days fasting? On a PBS TV program over ten years ago, it recommended doing that once a month. The first time I did it it was very hard, hunger the first day, very weak the last day. I remember, I didn't make it either, through the last day. I was working, doing a kitchen remodel, just me and the homeowners. They said, we're getting a pizza for lunch, you're welcome to some. I couldn't resist. Another benefit, food tastes so good after a fast. OK, one last thing, if you're going to fast more than one day, 24 hours, do some research, this info, here, is not enough to do a 3 & 1/2 day fast. OK, one last other thing, Taubes hardly mentions fasting, so that will come later, with the Why We Get Sick book. ~~~~~~~~ quotes following, I'll do direct quotes in "quotes" and otherwise no " ".

"I'm going to argue that this calories in/calories out paradigm of adiposity is nonsensical: that we don't get fat because we eat too much and move too little, and that we can't solve the problem or prevent it by consciously doing the opposite. The first part of the book will present the evidence against this hypothesis". ...He then says children and young adults HAVE to overeat, take in more calories that is expended, because this is how you grow. "There is every reason the believe that the growth of our fat tissue leading to overweight and obesity is also driven and controlled by hormones".

"What regulates fat accumulation? As it turns out, two factors will essentially determine how much fat we accumulate, both having to do with the hormone insulin". pgs 8,9

"First, when insulin levels are elevated, we accumulate fat in our fat tissue; when these levels fall, we liberate fat from the fat tissue and burn it as fuel. This has been known since the early 1960s and has never been controversial. Second, our insulin levels are effectively determined by the carbohydrates we eat - not entirely, but for all intents and purposes. 'Carbohydrate is driving insulin is driving fat', is how George Cahill (Harvard Medical School) recently described this to me.

In other words, the science itself makes clear that hormones, enzymes and growth factors regulate our fat tissue, just as they do everything else in the human body, and that we do not get fat because we overeat; we get fat because the carbohydrates in our diet make us fat. The science tells us that obesity is ultimately the result of a hormonal imbalance, not a calorie one - specifically, the stimulation of insulin secretion caused by eating easily digestible, carbohydrate-rich foods: refined carbohydrates, including flour and cereal grains, starchy vegetables such as potatoes and sugars, like sucrose (table sugar) and high-fructose corn syrup. These carbohydrates literally make us fat, and by driving us to accumulate fat, they make us hungrier and they make us sedentary. This is the fundamental reality of why we fatten... This is certainly not a new message. Until the 1960s it was a conventional wisdom". pgs 10,11

[inavalan]

Keep it simple: at every meal eat only half to three quarters of it, and you'll lose weight at a good rate.

Do some moderate physical activity 30-60 minutes everyday.

There are so many opinions, books, gurus on weight-loss and health (like in any field), and still people get fatter and fatter, less and less healthy. I believe that the reason for this is that people create their own reality psychologically. You have to trust that you'll succeed, so you need to find a reason to really trust that you'll succeed.

In my case, that reason was: 3,500 calories ~= 1 lb of fat. Having an engineering / scientific formation, this formula made sense to me, I trusted it, I applied it, and lost 135 lbs over 13 months, at a constant rate.


This reminds the not so funny story of a very religious man's home getting surrounded by the high waters of a flood. He climbs on the roof of the house, and confidently starts praying to God for help. A boat stops offering to pick him up, but the man refuses: he trusts that God'll help him. Some time later a chopper approaches and offers to pick him up, and again the man refuses: he's confident that God'll help him for he always worshiped Him. The level of the water reaches the roof, the man drowns, and he meets God. Confused, and a little upset, the man asks why God didn't help him. Paternally, God replies: "I helped you repeatedly to avoid the flood, and then I even sent you a boat, then a chopper to take you away from danger ..."

[inavalan]

Also, to control my appetite, I ate every about 1.5-2 hours small meals, which meant 6-7 times a day. When I ate socially I just explained "I'm dieting" and chose dishes and quantities that didn't significantly deviate from my diet.

These days I eat a little every time I feel like eating, excepting a breakfast and a dinner when eat more, but decently. When I eat socially I still eat only what makes sense to me, without explanations to others: "no, thank you "

Usually, I workout before breakfast, and walk before dinner.

[zendancer]

I never had a weight problem, but at the age of about 40 bloodwork revealed very high triglycerides and elevated cholesterol for the first time. The doc asked me about my diet and I proudly told him that I ate lots of cashew nuts as a healthy snack! haha. He informed me that cashews in volume are not healthy and probably accounted for the high levels of "bad" blood components. I eliminated cashews and changed my diet, but still had a hard time getting back to normal bloodwork numbers. I tried low-fat diets and ultra-exercise, but still had difficulty lowering LDL cholesterol and triglycerides. After many years I finally discovered that carbs were the issue and I switched to a Mediterranean diet and that did the trick. With that diet I dropped from 175 pounds to 153 pounds and have stayed at exactly that weight for at least the last 20 or 30 years. We eat our biggest meal at lunch and only eat a few snacks in the afternoon or evening (things like hummus and rice crackers). If we go to dinner with friends, we go early and eat between 4:30 and 5:30 and usually eat things like salmon, asparagus, Brussel sprouts, salads, a baked potato, etc and we never eat fried foods or desserts. We both like to exercise, and we've noticed that our appetites have decreased steadily with age. Last week to celebrate an 80th bday, I climbed a fourteener in CO and clocked 20,000 steps, 9.5 miles, and several thousand feet of elevation gain. I was definitely hammered at the end of the day, but it was still fun. Most of our healthy friends also eat either a Mediterranean diet or a MIND diet and we all stay away from processed foods and sweets. Walking is the preferred exercise for most of our healthy friends, and all of us try to clock between 7000 and 10,000 steps per day.

[lolly]

Weight gain is a function of consuming more calories than you burn, and the hormone hypothesis is well and truly debunked in science. Diet gurus take a hormonal function, which is true, and then make claims about it which are untrue. Hence the general nutrition discourse we have available is mostly bollocks. It's no surprise that the The OP is bollocks when that's the statistical likelihood.

We already know how people accumulate fat. Too many calories and sede3ntary lifestyles. We know how to partition nutrients so that weight gained is lean tissue and weight lost is fat. Thus body builders get shredded, boxers make their fighting weight, lifters achieve their competition weight. Why? Because we know how to do it.

That's good news because a vast array of different diets all work to the same effect and accommodate individual preferences/tendencies, cultural norms and social lives with no difference in outcomes. Diets then work because individuals can sustain them.

I'm sorry if the facts don't affirm your beliefs, but the authors you turn to do that are misleading you

[lolly]

I'd never heard of Taubes until now, so I did a bit of a background check - he's an idiot.

[stardustpilgrim]

Sept 28, 2023 3:18:16 GMT -5 lolly said:

Weight gain is a function of consuming more calories than you burn, and the hormone hypothesis is well and truly debunked in science. Diet gurus take a hormonal function, which is true, and then make claims about it which are untrue. Hence the general nutrition discourse we have available is mostly bollocks. It's no surprise that the The OP is bollocks when that's the statistical likelihood.

We already know how people accumulate fat. Too many calories and sede3ntary lifestyles. We know how to partition nutrients so that weight gained is lean tissue and weight lost is fat. Thus body builders get shredded, boxers make their fighting weight, lifters achieve their competition weight. Why? Because we know how to do it.

That's good news because a vast array of different diets all work to the same effect and accommodate individual preferences/tendencies, cultural norms and social lives with no difference in outcomes. Diets then work because individuals can sustain them.

I'm sorry if the facts don't affirm your beliefs, but the authors you turn to do that are misleading you

The question is, why do people eat too much? 50%-70% of Americans are overweight. I weighed 226.4 pounds this morning, that's being 'cleaned out', so any weight I lose from now on is from fat loss, on the way to 176. I said on the other thread, I'm writing for people like me. Do you work with any people who are fat, say 35+ pounds overweight? Have you ever had someone, (just) eating less, exercising more, come to you and say, I've hit a wall, I can't lose anymore, that for 3-4 weeks, 2 months? When I had high blood glucose about 5 years ago, researched, I knew I had insulin resistance. I fixed my glucose problem in a week, don't ever plan to go there again. You have very most excellent insulin sensitivity. Hope you always have it.

[stardustpilgrim]

Sept 28, 2023 4:07:14 GMT -5 lolly said:

I'd never heard of Taubes until now, so I did a bit of a background check - he's an idiot.

You found his first book on fat loss. It disagrees with your view. The first book is more technical, Good Calories, Bad Calories, full of the science, full of scientific-paper-data. People kept asking him for a streamlined book. That became Why We Get Fat. The Fat Conundrum isn't a physics problem. You gave me one research paper with 20 people (from your video), and it wasn't even about weight loss in particular. I'll probably get to Why We Get Sick, sooner.

[zazeniac]

With exercise and food, I only do things I could sustain for the rest of my life. I eat around 2 or 3 pm each day. It's an indulgent meal, whatever I want, except soda. Then in the evening I eat a light meal around 7 pm. Yogurt, fruit, a protein drink, a handful of nuts. I fast 16 or 17 hours til the next day, then feast again. Fast and feast. Been doing this forever. My bmi is high as hell
, but I can do 50 push-ups without stopping so according to some study I read about I should outlive the skinny guys like sree, poor sree. I miss the dude.

I weight train 2 to 4 times a week depending on how much tennis I play. I'm in a tennis league now so down to 2 times. I weigh 205. Met an old lifter in his 80's at my gym, he told me "don't let them(docs)talk you into dropping below 200. I did and they f'd me up." I took his advice.

For recovery from all the exercise, I do yoga and Tai Chi, but only 15 or 20 minutes. Almost daily.

You have to have fun. You'd like weight training, real technical. Read a few books. My favorite author is Stuart McRobert. Just some ideas. Doing over reading, though. But take it easy if it gets too tedious, you won't enjoy it and you'll stop. The one thing that'll give you the most bang is weight training, but go easy.

[andrew]

Sept 28, 2023 7:19:54 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Sept 28, 2023 3:18:16 GMT -5 lolly said:

Weight gain is a function of consuming more calories than you burn, and the hormone hypothesis is well and truly debunked in science. Diet gurus take a hormonal function, which is true, and then make claims about it which are untrue. Hence the general nutrition discourse we have available is mostly bollocks. It's no surprise that the The OP is bollocks when that's the statistical likelihood.

We already know how people accumulate fat. Too many calories and sede3ntary lifestyles. We know how to partition nutrients so that weight gained is lean tissue and weight lost is fat. Thus body builders get shredded, boxers make their fighting weight, lifters achieve their competition weight. Why? Because we know how to do it.

That's good news because a vast array of different diets all work to the same effect and accommodate individual preferences/tendencies, cultural norms and social lives with no difference in outcomes. Diets then work because individuals can sustain them.

I'm sorry if the facts don't affirm your beliefs, but the authors you turn to do that are misleading you

The question is, why do people eat too much? 50%-70% of Americans are overweight. I weighed 226.4 pounds this morning, that's being 'cleaned out', so any weight I lose from now on is from fat loss, on the way to 176. I said on the other thread, I'm writing for people like me. Do you work with any people who are fat, say 35+ pounds overweight? Have you ever had someone, (just) eating less, exercising more, come to you and say, I've hit a wall, I can't lose anymore, that for 3-4 weeks, 2 months? When I had high blood glucose about 5 years ago, researched, I knew I had insulin resistance. I fixed my glucose problem in a week, don't ever plan to go there again. You have very most excellent insulin sensitivity. Hope you always have it.

I've asked myself this question in the last 3 months in America. I weigh about 145 pounds and sometimes become a little aware of my skinny adult status here.

1) vegetables and fruit are insanely expensive here (at least compared to the UK). I don't know why that is, but Americans are being ripped off on vegetables. Simple marinara pasta sauce is twice the price of the UK. Hummus is about three times the price in America. Unbelievably, even meat is more expensive in America. It's cheap and easy to get a deal at a fast food place, but if you want to eat healthily, then you have to pay for it. Edit: Potatoes.. In the UK, I ate fresh potatoes maybe 4 times a week...could be roasted, mashed, baked, boiled. I could pick up a decent bag of potatoes for about £1 (sometimes less at the end of each day, on discount). In America....usually at least $4 for a roughly equivalent size bag (though I just got some for under $3 from Aldi which is good by US standards). What's going on?

2) Culturally, I feel that home cooking is not an integral part of the culture here. Everyone seems busy all the time, errands to run, jobs to do etc. I've stayed in several people's houses here, and although they have ingredients in their cupboard, they rarely cook at home.

3) The sense of individualism is strong in America, and while...in one way... I appreciate the sovereignty of that, I think it creates adrenaline and stress. When people are stressed, they might reach for comfort food.

4) I also have a slightly controversial speculation that many people experience a subtle but deep sense of dislocation in many states. Put bluntly, I'm not sure white people naturally and physiologically belong in hot and humid states. Maybe the bulk of America 'belongs' to the native Indians. Maybe American patriotism is a sort of 'cover up' for a subtle sense of dislocation. I've speculated that people stuff food in themselves to give themselves a sense of weight, to make them feel like their feet do belong on the ground here. Again, this is obviously just a speculation, I don't give it weight (pun).

[zendancer]

Sept 28, 2023 12:55:52 GMT -5 andrew said:

Sept 28, 2023 7:19:54 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

The question is, why do people eat too much? 50%-70% of Americans are overweight. I weighed 226.4 pounds this morning, that's being 'cleaned out', so any weight I lose from now on is from fat loss, on the way to 176. I said on the other thread, I'm writing for people like me. Do you work with any people who are fat, say 35+ pounds overweight? Have you ever had someone, (just) eating less, exercising more, come to you and say, I've hit a wall, I can't lose anymore, that for 3-4 weeks, 2 months? When I had high blood glucose about 5 years ago, researched, I knew I had insulin resistance. I fixed my glucose problem in a week, don't ever plan to go there again. You have very most excellent insulin sensitivity. Hope you always have it.

I've asked myself this question in the last 3 months in America. I weigh about 145 pounds and sometimes become a little aware of my skinny adult status here.

1) vegetables and fruit are insanely expensive here (at least compared to the UK). I don't know why that is, but Americans are being ripped off on vegetables. Simple marinara pasta sauce is twice the price of the UK. Hummus is about three times the price in America. Unbelievably, even meat is more expensive in America. It's cheap and easy to get a deal at a fast food place, but if you want to eat healthily, then you have to pay for it. Edit: Potatoes.. In the UK, I ate fresh potatoes maybe 4 times a week...could be roasted, mashed, baked, boiled. I could pick up a decent bag of potatoes for about £1 (sometimes less at the end of each day, on discount). In America....usually at least $4 for a roughly equivalent size bag (though I just got some for under $3 from Aldi which is good by US standards). What's going on?

2) Culturally, I feel that home cooking is not an integral part of the culture here. Everyone seems busy all the time, errands to run, jobs to do etc. I've stayed in several people's houses here, and although they have ingredients in their cupboard, they rarely cook at home.

3) The sense of individualism is strong in America, and while...in one way... I appreciate the sovereignty of that, I think it creates adrenaline and stress. When people are stressed, they might reach for comfort food.

4) I also have a slightly controversial speculation that many people experience a subtle but deep sense of dislocation in many states. Put bluntly, I'm not sure white people naturally and physiologically belong in hot and humid states. Maybe the bulk of America 'belongs' to the native Indians. Maybe American patriotism is a sort of 'cover up' for a subtle sense of dislocation. I've speculated that people stuff food in themselves to give themselves a sense of weight, to make them feel like their feet do belong on the ground here. Again, this is obviously just a speculation, I don't give it weight (pun).

I think these three speculations are spot on, but have my doubts about #4. A lot of companies have artificially jacked up their prices by blaming it on inflation, but a recent report revealed that many of the price increases have nothing to do with inflation; it's just a way to take advantage of the inflation story.

FWIW, there are still many good deals for people interested in healthy foods. Organic bananas, for example, are ridiculously cheap, and there are other similar foods that are economical if one takes the time shop around and find the bargains. Some of the generic brands are half the price of the big-name brands.

[tenka]

There are for sure relatively cheapish foods that are good for you. I mean liver is cheap as chips (pun) Sardines, etc .. I noticed today that stuff is just going up and up .. a decent bottle of proper olive oil nearly a tenner in the uk ..

I think peeps get seduced by the nicer flavoured foods, rather than what is good for you .. I have a mixture of cider vinegar, cayenne peppers, spirulina, garlic, when I take my yeast and other vits. It tastes like shit butt I don't care .

My body tends to like less food nowadays .. Like Z I can go from an evening meal to an evening meal having a handful of nuts or seeds in-between and then exercise ..

I touched upon it in the other nutrition thread about keeping certain food groups together. There is lots of info on this, but as there are different views in non duality there are in regards to nutrition .

I mean one day eggs are good for you and the next they contribute to heart disease .

[andrew]

Sept 28, 2023 14:13:30 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Sept 28, 2023 12:55:52 GMT -5 andrew said:

I've asked myself this question in the last 3 months in America. I weigh about 145 pounds and sometimes become a little aware of my skinny adult status here.

1) vegetables and fruit are insanely expensive here (at least compared to the UK). I don't know why that is, but Americans are being ripped off on vegetables. Simple marinara pasta sauce is twice the price of the UK. Hummus is about three times the price in America. Unbelievably, even meat is more expensive in America. It's cheap and easy to get a deal at a fast food place, but if you want to eat healthily, then you have to pay for it. Edit: Potatoes.. In the UK, I ate fresh potatoes maybe 4 times a week...could be roasted, mashed, baked, boiled. I could pick up a decent bag of potatoes for about £1 (sometimes less at the end of each day, on discount). In America....usually at least $4 for a roughly equivalent size bag (though I just got some for under $3 from Aldi which is good by US standards). What's going on?

2) Culturally, I feel that home cooking is not an integral part of the culture here. Everyone seems busy all the time, errands to run, jobs to do etc. I've stayed in several people's houses here, and although they have ingredients in their cupboard, they rarely cook at home.

3) The sense of individualism is strong in America, and while...in one way... I appreciate the sovereignty of that, I think it creates adrenaline and stress. When people are stressed, they might reach for comfort food.

4) I also have a slightly controversial speculation that many people experience a subtle but deep sense of dislocation in many states. Put bluntly, I'm not sure white people naturally and physiologically belong in hot and humid states. Maybe the bulk of America 'belongs' to the native Indians. Maybe American patriotism is a sort of 'cover up' for a subtle sense of dislocation. I've speculated that people stuff food in themselves to give themselves a sense of weight, to make them feel like their feet do belong on the ground here. Again, this is obviously just a speculation, I don't give it weight (pun).

I think these three speculations are spot on, but have my doubts about #4. A lot of companies have artificially jacked up their prices by blaming it on inflation, but a recent report revealed that many of the price increases have nothing to do with inflation; it's just a way to take advantage of the inflation story.

FWIW, there are still many good deals for people interested in healthy foods. Organic bananas, for example, are ridiculously cheap, and there are other similar foods that are economical if one takes the time shop around and find the bargains. Some of the generic brands are half the price of the big-name brands.

Yes, bananas are same price here as in UK which is good. I also popped into an Amish shop last week and got a massive bag of apples for 2 dollars which is great. As I'm on the move a lot, I carry a box of cupboard supplies with me, and there are salvage food shops scattered around which offer great deals, if folks are okay to eat 'expiry date' store cupboard food (I am fine with that).

Eating healthily and on a budget can be done....but it's not easy. I have time to do it, but i imagine that for working families and people with regular lives that have financial constraints....it's a tough situation right now.

[andrew]

Sept 28, 2023 14:24:02 GMT -5 tenka said:

There are for sure relatively cheapish foods that are good for you. I mean liver is cheap as chips (pun) Sardines, etc .. I noticed today that stuff is just going up and up .. a decent bottle of proper olive oil nearly a tenner in the uk ..

I think peeps get seduced by the nicer flavoured foods, rather than what is good for you .. I have a mixture of cider vinegar, cayenne peppers, spirulina, garlic, when I take my yeast and other vits. It tastes like shit butt I don't care .

My body tends to like less food nowadays .. Like Z I can go from an evening meal to an evening meal having a handful of nuts or seeds in-between and then exercise ..

I touched upon it in the other nutrition thread about keeping certain food groups together. There is lots of info on this, but as there are different views in non duality there are in regards to nutrition .

I mean one day eggs are good for you and the next they contribute to heart disease .

Yeah I'm not a nutrition expert at all, just try and eat intuitively and decently. I love a donut and don't deny myself the unhealthy stuff.

Yeah, it's the basics in the UK that were still cheap 3 months ago....the sardines, tuna, beans, porridge oats, hummous. Bran Flakes from Aldi in UK are about 70p. Here more like $2.50...in Aldi!

What's interesting is the way my conditioning is shifting though. I notice in certain ways how my brain is slowly becoming American 😳😁

[inavalan]

Sept 28, 2023 12:55:52 GMT -5 andrew said:

Sept 28, 2023 7:19:54 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

The question is, why do people eat too much? 50%-70% of Americans are overweight. ...

I've asked myself this question in the last 3 months in America. ...

I believe that we have to look at this as being a symptom, a manifestation of a psychic mass characteristic of this people. Everywhere on Earth, the specific mass characteristics of the people manifest in some specific way, according to the specific conditions: health, poverty, unrest, war, natural catastrophies, ... Maybe, this health issue is one of the local mass manifestation of choice caused by the underlying psychic climate that results from the same negative emotions (anger, hate, fear, ...) as in other parts of the world, where it manifests differently. US hasn't seen war on its land for much longer than elsewhere, for example. The religious background can be said to be overall less antagonistic. The overall wealth (of resources to) and development are at higher levels.