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Post by laughter on Aug 3, 2023 12:57:10 GMT -5
I observe feelings and thoughts etc, but only assume a self. The aggregates (feelings, thoughts etc) are undeniable because the experience of them is direct, but I have never experienced 'myself'. The was an occasion I did 'see myself' but I immediately knew it's a ghost and not actually me. In contrast, I was still there where I actually belong, in the driver's seat, as opposed to living as that horrid thing which is nothing but wound up impulses from craving and aversion. You don't assume a sense of self, you experience it. It's a visceral sense, it's tangible and it's not doing any craving. It's not changing or suffering. You will have the sense of self no matter what you are thinking or not thinking. You never say I'm not me today because I'm having some different thoughts. You are you no matter what. But that fundamental sense is entangled with egoity which does partake of craving and aversion. The driver's seat is that sense of self with no one in it. But most people prior to stream entry, if you want to use that particular categorization, can't tell the difference or disentangle the pure sense of self from changing phenomena which is why it's possible to say I'm not myself today. so they work on that which is external and that's a large part of modern-day Buddhist psychology which is nonsense. But go to the absorption states of the Jhanas and mindfulness and you're getting closer to what I believe Buddha would have taught. In the meantime I cannot take at face value a single word that is attributed to the Buddha since nothing was written down for a long time after his passing. Most of what people read today are commentaries. For me it's quite simple. If I read some Buddhist teaching and it's not my experience then I immediately dismiss it.  excellent dialog, very fun to read. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 3, 2023 13:02:09 GMT -5
Gotta go, my Taco Bell breakfast window is closing. “ The moral of "The Myth of Sisyphus" is that there is no greater meaning in life but what we give it. When we accept that the universe has no inherent meaning or reason, we can be free of artificial expectations and embrace the absurd.” The absence of false meaning is a great opportunity. It allows a space, but only if one doesn't make a meaning out of the absence of meaning. |
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Post by sharon on Aug 3, 2023 13:21:50 GMT -5
And yet it's Christianity that gave the world the idea that every human being has their own intrinsic value. And that human being with their own intrinsic value which is Individuality is required to know that: I and the Father are one” (John 10:30) Shiva as the absolute is continually losing itself in ignorance as Shakti so that it can re-discover it's transcendent nature. Shakti being the Mother. |
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Post by sharon on Aug 3, 2023 13:24:06 GMT -5
And yet it's Christianity that gave the world the idea that every human being has their own intrinsic value. The working-class melting pot aphorism I grew up with was "ya' gotta' take the good wit' the bad". I think they reversed the sense of it for the sake verbal rhythm.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 3, 2023 15:40:30 GMT -5
I observe feelings and thoughts etc, but only assume a self. The aggregates (feelings, thoughts etc) are undeniable because the experience of them is direct, but I have never experienced 'myself'. The was an occasion I did 'see myself' but I immediately knew it's a ghost and not actually me. In contrast, I was still there where I actually belong, in the driver's seat, as opposed to living as that horrid thing which is nothing but wound up impulses from craving and aversion. You don't assume a sense of self, you experience it. It's a visceral sense, it's tangible and it's not doing any craving. It's not changing or suffering. You will have the sense of self no matter what you are thinking or not thinking. You never say I'm not me today because I'm having some different thoughts. You are you no matter what. But that fundamental sense is entangled with egoity which does partake of craving and aversion. The driver's seat is that sense of self with no one in it. But most people prior to stream entry, if you want to use that particular categorization, can't tell the difference or disentangle the pure sense of self from changing phenomena which is why it's possible to say I'm not myself today. so they work on that which is external and that's a large part of modern-day Buddhist psychology which is nonsense. But go to the absorption states of the Jhanas and mindfulness and you're getting closer to what I believe Buddha would have taught. In the meantime I cannot take at face value a single word that is attributed to the Buddha since nothing was written down for a long time after his passing. Most of what people read today are commentaries. For me it's quite simple. If I read some Buddhist teaching and it's not my experience then I immediately dismiss it. I'm no longer sure what you mean by having a sense of self, the ordinary self. I understand what ZD means. ZD experiences a flesh and blood body, sweat and tears. But for ZD there is no 'animating' self. I used to think that satch did consider that there was an animating self, that that's what you meant by self. Now it's pretty clear you are closer to the view of ZD. So it seems you have a completely different ~framework~ than lolly or ouroboros or zazeniac or sdp. For myself, I take responsibility for what the body does. Now, it's complicated, the source and reasons for thoughts and feelings and actions, but I'm a "The buck stops here" person. Now, I don't think sdp is in any sense separate from what you-all mean by All That Is, but there is a *person* here, flesh and blood. Volition is problematic. I basically concur that all our thoughts and feelings and actions arise from conditioning and programming, "garbage in, garbage out". Volition only enters as ~being-aware-of~ thoughts, feelings and actions, or ~being-attentive-to~ thoughts, feelings and actions. But, despite this, sdp is still responsible. My actions are filtered through the physiology of my brain-mind-body, the senses and the neurophysiology, not a direct ~outflowing~ of All That Is. Purification, is about dealing with all these parameters. If one does not know the law, of karma, this is not a cause for one to feel innocent if one ~commits a crime~, that is, subjects oneself to the law of karma. Thus, sdp is responsible. But the problem is, cause and effect occurs in a *whirlwind* of subconscious processing, and so day by day activities seem untied to my self. But everything that happens to you is from the principle of LOA. IOW, actions always have consequences. I presume this is not how satch sees the universe operating. |
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Post by sharon on Aug 3, 2023 15:48:56 GMT -5
You don't assume a sense of self, you experience it. It's a visceral sense, it's tangible and it's not doing any craving. It's not changing or suffering. You will have the sense of self no matter what you are thinking or not thinking. You never say I'm not me today because I'm having some different thoughts. You are you no matter what. But that fundamental sense is entangled with egoity which does partake of craving and aversion. The driver's seat is that sense of self with no one in it. But most people prior to stream entry, if you want to use that particular categorization, can't tell the difference or disentangle the pure sense of self from changing phenomena which is why it's possible to say I'm not myself today. so they work on that which is external and that's a large part of modern-day Buddhist psychology which is nonsense. But go to the absorption states of the Jhanas and mindfulness and you're getting closer to what I believe Buddha would have taught. In the meantime I cannot take at face value a single word that is attributed to the Buddha since nothing was written down for a long time after his passing. Most of what people read today are commentaries. For me it's quite simple. If I read some Buddhist teaching and it's not my experience then I immediately dismiss it. I'm no longer sure what you mean by having a sense of self, the ordinary self. I understand what ZD means. ZD experiences a flesh and blood body, sweat and tears. But for ZD there is no 'animating' self. I used to think that satch did consider that there was an animating self, that that's what you meant by self. Now it's pretty clear you are closer to the view of ZD. So it seems you have a completely different ~framework~ than lolly or ouroboros or zazeniac or sdp. For myself, I take responsibility for what the body does. Now, it's complicated, the source and reasons for thoughts and feelings and actions, but I'm a "The buck stops here" person. Now, I don't think sdp is in any sense separate from what you-all mean by All That Is, but there is a *person* here, flesh and blood. Volition is problematic. I basically concur that all our thoughts and feelings and actions arise from conditioning and programming, "garbage in, garbage out". Volition only enters as ~being-aware-of~ thoughts, feelings and actions, or ~being-attentive-to~ thoughts, feelings and actions. But, despite this, sdp is still responsible. My actions are filtered through the physiology of my brain-mind-body, the senses and the neurophysiology, not a direct ~outflowing~ of All That Is. Purification, is about dealing with all these parameters. If one does not know the law, of karma, this is not a cause for one to feel innocent if one ~commits a crime~, that is, subjects oneself to the law of karma. Thus, sdp is responsible. But the problem is, cause and effect occurs in a *whirlwind* of subconscious processing, and so day by day activities seem untied to my self. But everything that happens to you is from the principle of LOA. IOW, actions always have consequences. Did you write this post using such a method? |
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Post by inavalan on Aug 3, 2023 15:58:18 GMT -5
... I basically concur that all our thoughts and feelings and actions arise from conditioning and programming, "garbage in, garbage out". ... Did you write this post using such a method? That's a partial self-realization ... A good one. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 3, 2023 16:04:02 GMT -5
I'm no longer sure what you mean by having a sense of self, the ordinary self. I understand what ZD means. ZD experiences a flesh and blood body, sweat and tears. But for ZD there is no 'animating' self. I used to think that satch did consider that there was an animating self, that that's what you meant by self. Now it's pretty clear you are closer to the view of ZD. So it seems you have a completely different ~framework~ than lolly or ouroboros or zazeniac or sdp. For myself, I take responsibility for what the body does. Now, it's complicated, the source and reasons for thoughts and feelings and actions, but I'm a "The buck stops here" person. Now, I don't think sdp is in any sense separate from what you-all mean by All That Is, but there is a *person* here, flesh and blood. Volition is problematic. I basically concur that all our thoughts and feelings and actions arise from conditioning and programming, "garbage in, garbage out". Volition only enters as ~being-aware-of~ thoughts, feelings and actions, or ~being-attentive-to~ thoughts, feelings and actions. But, despite this, sdp is still responsible. My actions are filtered through the physiology of my brain-mind-body, the senses and the neurophysiology, not a direct ~outflowing~ of All That Is. Purification, is about dealing with all these parameters. If one does not know the law, of karma, this is not a cause for one to feel innocent if one ~commits a crime~, that is, subjects oneself to the law of karma. Thus, sdp is responsible. But the problem is, cause and effect occurs in a *whirlwind* of subconscious processing, and so day by day activities seem untied to my self. But everything that happens to you is from the principle of LOA. IOW, actions always have consequences. Did you write this post using such a method? I presume you mean the bold. Yes, of course, it's not really a method, it's just what occurs. Even though I consider ~we all~ have the possibility of *freedom*, a better word, liberation, this is immeasurably difficult to achieve. So, here, now, in all situations and in all circumstances, in all thoughts, feelings and actions, everything happens in the only way it can happen. When I find a particularly pertinent quote, I change my signature. I chanced upon the Norbu quote recently (I've read him pretty extensively, but don't recall this quote). We are just little birds in a cage. I will eventually get to some pertinent quotes on the Yogacara thread, relevant. |
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Post by inavalan on Aug 3, 2023 16:08:32 GMT -5
Gotta go, my Taco Bell breakfast window is closing. Taco Bell breakfast ... Let me guess ... a medium apple, half a cup of just cooked thick-cut oatmeal, half an ounce of 72%+ dark chocolate, vitamins, supplements, unsweetened whey protein, fish oil? |
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Post by sharon on Aug 3, 2023 16:25:15 GMT -5
Did you write this post using such a method? That's a partial self-realization ... A good one. Even though I consider ~we all~ have the possibility of *freedom*, a better word, liberation, this is immeasurably difficult to achieve. And this is a self-limiting belief. A powerful one. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 3, 2023 16:34:30 GMT -5
Gotta go, my Taco Bell breakfast window is closing. Taco Bell breakfast ... Let me guess ... a medium apple, half a cup of just cooked thick-cut oatmeal, half an ounce of 72%+ dark chocolate, vitamins, supplements, unsweetened whey protein, fish oil? Most excellent. Taco Bell is a treat about twice a week. I never otherwise eat breakfast, intermittent fasting. I have a greens mix and my without-food supplements 'for breakfast'. This easily gets me to noon with no hunger. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 3, 2023 16:38:28 GMT -5
That's a partial self-realization ... A good one. Even though I consider ~we all~ have the possibility of *freedom*, a better word, liberation, this is immeasurably difficult to achieve. And this is a self-limiting belief. A powerful one. Do you want to explore this? Liberation means, first, liberation from one's own thoughts, feelings/negative emotions, derogatory actions. Most people, probably 95%, don't even know they are ~caged~. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 3, 2023 17:04:55 GMT -5
Okay cool. I'm happy to take a chance on my mind making a dog's dinner of it lol. Where I come from, the releasing of all suffering must inevitably be reflected/expressed in the world around them. It's why I resonate (from the little bit that I know if it) with the idea of 'Bodhisattva'. I cannot see a homeless person and say that there's no suffering within me. I don't always give to homeless folks, sometimes it doesn't feel like 'right action', but I can't pretend that I walk by without a pang. And that's just one example. Animal suffering can trigger me even more. I can relate to all that. No I don't think we can control what arises. Although to my mind, due to the nature of kamma that isn't entirely random … and that is to say that, contrary to popular opinion there is some responsibility borne for our current predicament, whatever that may be, even though ultimately there is non-one per se to bear it. In any event it's transmuted in the now, which is what it means to say that, that is where the point of power is. You're right that otoh judgement should ideally be left to G-d, which incidentally is a poetic way of describing kamma in action, but that otoh value judgment tends to happen quite naturally anyway as part n parcel of the expression of life. As to that being part of the problem, I don't necessarily think value judgement is all bad, on the contrary. And doubtlessly the more pure, i.e.the more present, the more spontaneously 'good' any action will be. Right, (although to be clear I consider that some way down the line in terms of successive rebirths for everyone here and that 'formless bliss' will almost certainly currently be misconscieved from the current vantage point). But "where your heart" lies is a noble enough sentiment, and realistic goal, and it's auspicious that you're conscious of it. And the good news is that, that very desire will result in renewed becoming/rebirth both momentarily and more broadly speaking after the death of the current individuated expression in due course. So you don't need to concerning yourself too much with 'formless bliss' anytime soon. I don't mean that at all sarcastically, in case it comes across that way (fwiw I put myself in a similar category). I would just suggest to perhaps be aware that an interest in the bodhisattva ideal could easily be tinged with measure of avoidance too. I mean literally just to be aware ….. of that potential. Cool, thanks for the thoughtful reply, it made sense to me, I don't have much to say....maybe I'm just not feeling chatty today. Only thing I will clarify is that for me, the 'Boddhisatva' thing isn't a path I feel I consciously choose, it's not something I consider 'noble'. It's really just....'That guy just kicked that dog and I don't like the feeling of that, nor do I like the feeling of not liking the feeling, so I'm going to heal that overall perception and transmute that vibration'. It's quite selfish really lol. Along with that, I also can't deny the sense of 'inner purpose' that is present within me sometimes, though again I can't say I chose that. It exists within me, and I have to live with that. It's as much my cross to bear as it is my blessing. |
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Post by inavalan on Aug 3, 2023 17:07:13 GMT -5
That's a partial self-realization ... A good one. Even though I consider ~we all~ have the possibility of *freedom*, a better word, liberation, this is immeasurably difficult to achieve. And this is a self-limiting belief. A powerful one. I agree. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 3, 2023 17:08:51 GMT -5
P.S Have you read ''The After Life Of Billy Fingers''? It's not a deep book that takes concentration, but I found it absorbing. The truth is I don't remember the last time I read a book, and I wasn't familiar with that title but just perused the synopsis. Interesting and most assuredly death is not the end. It's just where winter transitions into spring. That death is no end is one of the few things I'm supremely confident about and one day I might get around to waxing lyrical about some 'between life' memories I think I might have. Although don't expect a lot, hehe. Anyway, I'll definitely put that book on my list for the next time I travel (which is when I tend to read, if ever). I like that it doesn't sound too strenuous.  Trust me, it's an easy read....I don't read either, but in lockdown December 2020, the situation was a little unusual. I read that book and played the piano for the first time in 20 odd years. Haven't done either since. I'm interested in your between life memories if you want to share sometime. Like you it is something I am sure about, though I do believe that the options beyond death are wide (I don't mean the Christian 'heaven and hell' thing) |
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excellent dialog, very fun to read.
