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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2023 12:22:23 GMT -5
Alignment means returning to your natural state of being, and that can only happen by letting go. And that is either NOW or never. Purification, OTOH, means running after some ideal (aka imaginary, unnatural) state of being and that can only happen thru effort, practice. And that is never NOW, but always tomorrow (which never comes). Once you realize that there is only NOW and that what you are actually after is your natural state (which just is, i.e. you can neither lose it nor earn it), you'll also realize that suffering as well as karma are actually optional. And I'd say the Shakyamuni story illustrates that rather clearly, that karma and suffering are optional. The moment you fully step into the NOW, you leave the realm of karma. The moment you step out of the NOW, you enter the realm of karma. It's that simple. That's what the Buddhist story about the tigers and the strawberries is all about. People make too much of this karma stuff. In Zen they call this a donkey-tying pole. Don't be a donkey!  On the flip side, I see thousands of 'alignment' seekers that don't spend much time in alignment, because there's purification work to be done. There's a shed load of people out there that struggle with anxiety and that physiologically cannot be in alignment, until they've addressed the anxiety in some way. I see a balance...a time to purify, and a time to return to the Now. A time to do the work, and a time to walk off the battlefield. And that's going to be different for each individual. But, it all depends on what we are fundamentally driven towards. There was a time when I would have looked at Tolle and wanted what he had. Now I'm okay with my own spiritual path. As long as we are talking about the relative context, i.e. becoming healthy, wealthy, happy and wise, purification is fine. No objections on my part. But when we are talking about liberation, purification and karma and practice have no place here. In short, there's some serious context mixing going on here. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2023 12:30:00 GMT -5
On the flip side, I see thousands of 'alignment' seekers that don't spend much time in alignment, because there's purification work to be done. There's a shed load of people out there that struggle with anxiety and that physiologically cannot be in alignment, until they've addressed the anxiety in some way. I see a balance...a time to purify, and a time to return to the Now. A time to do the work, and a time to walk off the battlefield. And that's going to be different for each individual. But, it all depends on what we are fundamentally driven towards. There was a time when I would have looked at Tolle and wanted what he had. Now I'm okay with my own spiritual path. There is a kind of disconnect I can't quite articulate. Trying to: This mind-body manifests certain qualities and characteristics, thoughts, feelings, actions. Now, whatever these characteristics are, is completely irrelevant, because there is a realization that ~I am not those characteristics~, I am the Whole of All That Is, there is no person here. There is only Source Sourcing. In fact, there is no responsibility here, as there is nobody here to be responsible. And, karma cannot exist, as there are no persons so nobody can be subject to karma. And, you can't understand all this unless you become a member of the club. That probably sounds disparaging, and I'm sure I will be told this is a misconception. Just trying to grasp the ungraspable. I don't wish to pollute ouroboros' thread, but ya know, donkeys poop as and where they please. always been your main mistake. Both the sage and the ignorant say: "I am the body." |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 4, 2023 12:41:15 GMT -5
A few of us here don't consider it quite so easy. I'd guess this represents at minimum five hours of time on the part of ouroboros, and years of study and effort, practice. Did you read in full? I read because of interest. I can see the blood, sweat and tears, quite literally. I could say a lot more, but not here, not now anyway. I'll have some more material, defense, elsewhere, parallel, soon, fly-removal. One of the primary "enemies"-obstacles is self-delusion. Recognizing the donkey is not so easy. The law of karma is just like the law of gravity, unavoidable. Consequences are always tied to actions. If you want to throw out cause and effect, you have moved away from Buddhism. Yes, read in full, twice. And from the relative, deliberate creation perspective, I agree that it is well-written and could be quite useful. However, from the absolute, liberation/SR/TPTPAU perspective, it is riddled with flawed premises. Which, to me, makes it quite clear that he has no actual reference for any of that, i.e. he is just speculating. The main mistake is that he insists that liberation is conditional and so he places liberation firmly in the relative context. I just now wrapped up the quotes on the Yogacara thread. I finally got some support from historical Buddhism, Yogacara. The final post, rather long, shows a link between my view and your view, and why purification is necessary. I've always wanted to ask, here: Do you (plural) really believe [and here sdp always rolls eyes] that your SR is equal to that of the Buddha? Now I don't have to ask that question. I'll ~trust~ the view of Tagawa Shun'ei over yours. Of course I also know you will not. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2023 12:45:41 GMT -5
Nice. Hard subject to cover, and have to be well organised to do so without losing the plot. I think what reefs is missing is that the practice itself and the outcomes of practice aren't the same thing. IMO best to understand that 'letting go' is just the same as 'leaving it be as it is'. Indeed, if anything, the former of these imply agency rather than the latter. I like the explanation that says when you exert volition you produce a potential which inevitably manifests in conscious experience, only to pass away. Since this isn't linear, but better imagined as circular, it's called the kammic cycle. The cycle is something like, something happens, you react, reaction incites volition, a potential is produced, the potential manifests in experience, you react to it, volition, potential, manifest, react... in a loop. Meditation breaks the cycle at the reaction stage. Hence it isn't a practice of doing, but a practice of being conscious of what you already do unintentionally, and ceasing to do that. By ceasing to react you cease volition etc. and 'breaks' the kammic cycle. Even though the potentials of volition manifest immediately as subtle sensations in the body, the reactive tendency in itself is resistive, so the scope of the potential is left unrealised. Thus these potentials start to accumulate in the life form. The most obvious example is how unresolved trauma as a child can affect outcomes in adult life. These accumulations of potential are manifest in themselves and can be felt throughout the body as tensions, solidity, density, heaviness, tightness or similar feelings. Other body areas become numb as you become increasingly unconscious of the manifestation, which is probably quite a difficult one being avoided. This is why they say meditation is for purification. People accumulate gunk and reefs is correct in saying it has to be let go. However, I prefer to say don't let go, don't hold on, just know it as a fact and let it be as it is. It is better than imagining that there is 'someone' holding on that must now let go. I know 'this is how it is'. Period. There is no further step. The thing can go or it can stay (but it will inevitably change). The desire for it to go is an aversion that only adds to the accumulation. One needs objective neutrality to witness the truth, as experienced by you, with the indifference one who is not affected by it. You see how this breaks the cycle at the reaction link. Since the reactivity ceased, volition ceases, and therefore, new potentials are no longer generated. The old accumulation of potentials continue to manifest as conscious experience and pass away. It's likened to a fire which you keep fueling. When you cease to add new wood, the old wood will burn out in its own time. As such, the accumulated sankara will eventually expire - and this emptying out is referred to as 'purification'. Here's the nuance: The desire for purification is aversion toward impurity, and this reactive tendency only adds more fuel to the fire The reason this aspect is not 'now' is because the process unfolds in its own way in its own time, just as the fire doesn't die 'now', but dwindles from now on. The fire takes a while to go out, but it inevitably will. If everything came through right now all at once it'd overwhelm you so much you'd never come back. This is why 'let go' may sound right as a conventional wisdom, but it isn't really the thing. The meditator has limitations with regard to his equanimity and can let go to that degree, but in practice you will find there is a point at which you become overwhelmed. The practice is an exercise that strengthens equanimity, the enhancement of which enables you to take more that you could before. Thus the purification deepens and deep seated sankaras are unloosed, surface in the experience and pass away. The removal of these obstacles clears the channel so the pure love of the universe flows through for you to express itself in all aspects of your life. Even then, there's only so much a koala can bear, and as it flows, you still hit limitations that you can't currently surpass. At that stage the tendency for desire is so strong you keep getting misled by temptations with the delusion that your motive is pure. Hence the practice remains consistent: neutral awareness with balance of mind as one who remains unaffected. I guess I'll end there, because it starts with pure motive, and it also ends there. Again, what you are proposing is all good and useful in the relative, deliberate creation context. And this is even better written (and especially more concise!) than what Ouros presented. But the fact remains, you both remain fixated on behaviorism. And as long as you do that, you make liberation conditional which means you remain stuck in the relative realm. And then liberation is not liberation, but just another level of identity poker. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 4, 2023 12:47:17 GMT -5
I don't think we will get very far with this. First, I would not equate the word belief with self-imposed limitation, IOW, beliefs are not self-imposed limitations. I would say a belief means a kind of shortcut of pre-processed evaluation for "rules" for daily living, so you don't have to evaluate every tiny decision from scratch. Self-imposed limitations are mostly subconscious, that is, we are not aware of them. We think we live in wide open spaces, that is, consciously, but in fact, we live in a tiny cage. The tiny cage is constructed from unconscious self-imposed limitations. The sentence that started this dialogue was from blood, sweat and tears experience, not subconscious assumptions AKA self-imposed limitations. I have my own demons, I know them well. I don't talk about practices or [inner] experiences, anywhere. When I've talked about my past, that's because it has passed. So I'm mostly a closed book, personally, here, necessarily. Basically, all I've ever written about here is about self-imposed limitations, impersonally and theoretically.Is it time to go beyond them yet? I meant other people's self-imposed limitations, guess that wasn't clear. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2023 12:54:56 GMT -5
Okay, that was a great read. Loads and loads I rez with. I appreciate the level of contemplation that was obviously required to get to a point where you could express all that so clearly. By way of conversation....a couple of thoughts/questions that occurred to me 1) What you call 'purifying', I call 'transmuting'. It's a new age thing. I believe higher vibration energy transmutes lower vibration energy. So I think about the movement of negative thoughts, feelings etc in terms of energy movements. 2) My experience is that the light of awareness and becoming/being conscious is useful and powerful, but often isn't enough. My experience is that a positive powerful feeling is the transmuting agent of conditioning....it might be love, joy, compassion. Even sadness has been useful on my path, because within sadness, there can be extremely powerful love. Forgiveness has also been a useful tool for same reason. Faster EFT is also a super useful tool. Ho'oponopono also. This is just how it is for me obviously. 3) Like Laughter, I am unclear about the ultimate goal. What do you see as the benefit of no more rebirth? Why is that a good thing? Obviously dukkha sucks (by definition of what it is), but still....I'm not clear what is beyond that in Buddhism? Is there a sort of 'eternal formless bliss' or something like that? Well said. The vibrational context makes sense, and transmuting and transformational are quite descriptive of the experience. Indeed the subtler perceptions of the body are more like vibrations, waves,flows or another dynamic experience (as opposed to the normal perception of dense solidity). The issue is by hearing about this kind of experience, the novice starts to crave, 'I want that experience for myself', and despair, 'why won't that happen to me'. There are any number of me, my, mine, I anxieties such as this, and there's more to realise in recognition of that desire than there is in the attainment of the pleasure itself. The practice in such a case would be the awareness 'I can see this desire and its associated discontent'. One might expect I'll now give the solution to that, but nope. that's all it is. Of the course the volition is immediate as you desist in being aware of 'as it is' as you writhe in making it 'as I want to be' (note which of those statements is self referential). The potential of that volition manifests immediately as a sensation in the body, and creates a density, tension or dischord as the reactive mind teeters on its balance point and agitates your pool of serenity. That is at the nexus where mind creates matter for the senses (and matter creates the mind).
Quiet contentment with 'this', just as it is, regardless of solidity or lightness, pleasure or discomfort, is the aim of the game. We think the adept is so peaceful because he is suffused with pleasure, as he may be, but it's just as likely that he is only enjoying his discomfort. As far as he's concerned, it is as it is and it'll change inevitably all by itself. Spirituality usually wants the solution, 'what should i do about it', and most teachers offer something, but that's actually coming from aversion toward one experience and the craving for something else. My view is, change is already the nature of experience, and as reefs might say, best be aligned with nature's way. Because the essence of being is the outpouring of love, the purification entails a lot of pleasure, which is great, and indeed, when a dense blockage moves through you like thick tar and dissolves in pure conscious awareness, healing light floods the space the blockage occupied, and it feels great. It's a holy experience, but it comes with temptation, the craving for more is exciting, but also puts you off track. Understanding on a deeper level, that happened, it's good, I'm transformed, but it's over and experience doesn't last. At least you learned the means by which it was enabled and can remain on that path rather than chasing the next special experience. When you come again to the discomfort of solid density, you do not become perturbed with aversion toward the ache nor craven for another transformative experience, but remain in the truth of 'this is how it is'. The irony is, indifference toward that which arises and passes away enables the experience, whereas desiring the same experience is a hinderance.
In practice it's a bit more nuanced as bringing light into the room then requires a bit or aftercare or acclimatisation to let it get established
After a time in a blissful flow there are new levels of intensity, and what you initially wanted more of starts to push the limits of what you can tolerate. It becomes very uncomfortable and it can be unrelenting so you just wish it would stop. I think that experience really teaches you that pleasure makes no difference. Pleasure and pain are really just the same. It's the same continuum of change, and by virtue of impermanence and the bedfellows desire and aversion, there's no real difference.
That doesn't mean pleasure, love, joy, or bliss isn't instrumental in transmutation. It is. It just means there's a risk of craving tempting you onto the 'wrong path'. I'd say remain steadfast on the truth rather than follow temptation.
This does sound a bit like Tzuth. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2023 12:56:17 GMT -5
Alignment means returning to your natural state of being, and that can only happen by letting go. And that is either NOW or never. Purification, OTOH, means running after some ideal (aka imaginary, unnatural) state of being and that can only happen thru effort, practice. And that is never NOW, but always tomorrow (which never comes). Once you realize that there is only NOW and that what you are actually after is your natural state (which just is, i.e. you can neither lose it nor earn it), you'll also realize that suffering as well as karma are actually optional. And I'd say the Shakyamuni story illustrates that rather clearly, that karma and suffering are optional. The moment you fully step into the NOW, you leave the realm of karma. The moment you step out of the NOW, you enter the realm of karma. It's that simple. That's what the Buddhist story about the tigers and the strawberries is all about. People make too much of this karma stuff. In Zen they call this a donkey-tying pole. Don't be a donkey! Parts of that are just a rather simplistic way of saying what I said, which is fine enough. Other bits strike me as just expressions of ongoing ignorance/delusion about the fact that kamma is still actually happening there. Either that or misguided complacency about that fact. ESA much?  |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2023 13:02:10 GMT -5
A few of us here don't consider it quite so easy. I'd guess this represents at minimum five hours of time on the part of ouroboros, and years of study and effort, practice. Did you read in full? I read because of interest. I can see the blood, sweat and tears, quite literally. I could say a lot more, but not here, not now anyway. I'll have some more material, defense, elsewhere, parallel, soon, fly-removal. One of the primary "enemies"-obstacles is self-delusion. Recognizing the donkey is not so easy. The law of karma is just like the law of gravity, unavoidable. Consequences are always tied to actions. If you want to throw out cause and effect, you have moved away from Buddhism. Karma is only for those who believe in birth and death. Karma theory is a misunderstanding of LOA. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2023 13:14:39 GMT -5
I couldn't help but notice that talking to our karma-practice-chameleons is a bit like talking to our solipsists - the logic is fine and usually flawless, but the basic premise to which the logic is applied to is, unfortunately, false. That's all I wanted to point out. Because if you start with a flawed premise, it can only get wronger and not righter the more logic you apply, no matter how flawless your logic. And so what has been proposed here is all hopelessly flawed and donkey-backwards, even though it can be backed up by personal experience, scriptures and logic. This is mainly because the issue is approached exclusively from the personal perspective, not the impersonal perspective. People here, with their strong focus on how to get 'there', don't seem to realize that there's no 'there' there, that there is no actual difference between missing TPTPAU by a mile or missing it by a hair. You either passed thru the gateless gate or you didn't. The personal perspective remains the personal perspective and is not the impersonal perspective, no matter how pure or polished. Only from the impersonal perspective can this karma and practice topic be put to rest. From the personal perspective it will forever remain speculation, a mind game. I see it as part of an unavoidable paradox to the human condition. The 'Now' is theoretically always available. Practically and realistically, it isn't. If it was, everyone would already be in it. In one way, the 'Now' happens TO us, so when it's not coming, what we can do is release our blocks to receiving it. It's not working to GET something, it's working to release our need to be in the way of it. So if one finds themselves generally struggling to be in the 'Now', or is struggling with anxiety and depression, use a damn tool. I don't see the paradox. You can't enter the NOW as a person. The person belongs to the realm of past, present and future. The NOW is prior to past, present and future. So you can't struggle your way into the NOW, only into the present. Simple. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2023 13:17:54 GMT -5
I couldn't help but notice that talking to our karma-practice-chameleons is a bit like talking to our solipsists - the logic is fine and usually flawless, but the basic premise to which the logic is applied to is, unfortunately, false. That's all I wanted to point out. Because if you start with a flawed premise, it can only get wronger and not righter the more logic you apply, no matter how flawless your logic. And so what has been proposed here is all hopelessly flawed and donkey-backwards, even though it can be backed up by personal experience, scriptures and logic. This is mainly because the issue is approached exclusively from the personal perspective, not the impersonal perspective. People here, with their strong focus on how to get 'there', don't seem to realize that there's no 'there' there, that there is no actual difference between missing TPTPAU by a mile or missing it by a hair. You either passed thru the gateless gate or you didn't. The personal perspective remains the personal perspective and is not the impersonal perspective, no matter how pure or polished. And only from the impersonal perspective can this karma and practice topic be put to rest. From the personal perspective it will forever remain speculation, a mind game. Is the impersonal perspective where Tsu lives? You mean Tzu? Tzu lives in the still mind. And a still mind is not the ticket to the impersonal. If it would, we could produce enlightened beings on an assembly line. But that obviously isn't happening and apparently has never happened and will never happen. |
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Post by inavalan on Aug 4, 2023 13:19:14 GMT -5
Karma is only for those who believe in birth and death. Karma theory is a misunderstanding of LOA. In the "the present is the point of power" context, karma is the law of " creating a past to explain the present according to one's beliefs".  |
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Post by inavalan on Aug 4, 2023 13:26:33 GMT -5
My Internet Security blocked the first link. It was written before the pandemic, but thanks for the impetus to find a source. It was posted mid "pandemic", after the second round of vaccinations.
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2023 13:35:45 GMT -5
I couldn't help but notice that talking to our karma-practice-chameleons is a bit like talking to our solipsists - the logic is fine and usually flawless, but the basic premise to which the logic is applied to is, unfortunately, false. That's all I wanted to point out. Because if you start with a flawed premise, it can only get wronger and not righter the more logic you apply, no matter how flawless your logic. And so what has been proposed here is all hopelessly flawed and donkey-backwards, even though it can be backed up by personal experience, scriptures and logic. This is mainly because the issue is approached exclusively from the personal perspective, not the impersonal perspective. People here, with their strong focus on how to get 'there', don't seem to realize that there's no 'there' there, that there is no actual difference between missing TPTPAU by a mile or missing it by a hair. You either passed thru the gateless gate or you didn't. The personal perspective remains the personal perspective and is not the impersonal perspective, no matter how pure or polished. And only from the impersonal perspective can this karma and practice topic be put to rest. From the personal perspective it will forever remain speculation, a mind game. This is for satch also. On the Yogacara thread Tagawa Shun'ei makes the point there is a something that presents continuity, from yesterday to today. He even says this something is fictitious. But he doesn't say it doesn't exist. There is undeniably a something, or you and satch couldn't keep a dialogue going with those here. The question is, what is the nature of that something. You and satch and ZD and others here, say the self is illusory. But I will say all day every day for a million years, that that self exists as information in your own particular brain. Now, Tagawa also says the very nature of this something, is that it has the capability of distorting everything, it's very nature IS distortion. Our only ~hope~ is that the distortions are not absolutely irrevocably distorting, everyone has available buddha-nature. If you guys no longer suffer, all I can do is accept you are being honest that you never suffer. But sdp doesn't trust sdp, the distorting factors. Now, Tagawa doesn't describe precisely my path, but it's close enough to be able to communicate truth, with others. Basically, it does not compute for sdp how Reefs or satch or others ~wears-the-persona-of-a-person~, and can say ATST there isn't a self-person present. I just don't buy this idea of contexts. I'd rather have truth that is true in any and all contexts. And I don't buy this business of, Oh, once you are SR, it will all make sense. IOW, I can't honestly say who is deluded, You (plural) or sdp. And sdp sort of has some skin in the game. These words are just rolling out, but from years of trying to consider your views. I have to follow my path, no amount of words you throw at me can alter it. This is probably biased, but zazeniac and ouroboros and lolly and andrew and sharon (and I'm sure there are others) have more integrity than all of you put together. Self-delusion is one of the attributes Tagawa Shun'ei discusses. Get that? Understand, that? Why it just might be a problem? What are ~you~, telling me there is no ~you~? I've been fishing (the bait hides the hook), I've been scammed (never bigly). Scam is the word of the day. I'd rather not ever be scammed, again, concerning anything. ...This probably does it for me for today...for now anyway... attitude gets you nowhere, because your situation is that you are mistaking the rope in your dark room for a snake. You have to switch on the light to see clearly that it is actually a rope and not a snake what you are looking at. If you don't switch on the light because you got so used to the dark, you will never see clearly. You will just cling to the devil you know in fear of the devil you don't know. That's not a satisfying situation. Hence your level of frustration. Usually, only when people have suffered enough, they finally give up and are willing to hear me. Your defiant stance does indicate that you are not there yet. And so there's no point in wasting words on ears that can't hear. |
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Post by andrew on Aug 4, 2023 13:38:44 GMT -5
Trust me, it's an easy read....I don't read either, but in lockdown December 2020, the situation was a little unusual. I read that book and played the piano for the first time in 20 odd years. Haven't done either since. I'm interested in your between life memories if you want to share sometime. Like you it is something I am sure about, though I do believe that the options beyond death are wide (I don't mean the Christian 'heaven and hell' thing) Sure, the movement to talk about that may arise at some stage.
Whilst we're at it I've got a recommendation for a very easy read some might find interesting. It's called 'The Celestine Prophecy' by James Redfield. I read it many years ago when I was travelling actually. It wouldn't surprise me if you're already familiar.
Yep I read it...gosh...maybe the early 2000s. It's a classic really. My spirituality also accelerated a lot while travelling around that time. |
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Post by Reefs on Aug 4, 2023 13:40:57 GMT -5
I see it as part of an unavoidable paradox to the human condition. The 'Now' is theoretically always available. Practically and realistically, it isn't. If it was, everyone would already be in it. In one way, the 'Now' happens TO us, so when it's not coming, what we can do is release our blocks to receiving it. It's not working to GET something, it's working to release our need to be in the way of it. So if one finds themselves generally struggling to be in the 'Now', or is struggling with anxiety and depression, use a damn tool. Now is all there ever is Bingo. |
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