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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 2, 2023 13:11:07 GMT -5
I've been considering this thread for a while, today seemed the day. Yes, I get why "ND" considers no direct benefit from practice, SR is acausal. And, you can't practice yourself into what you already are. But even "ND" admits there is indirect benefit to practice, stating it makes one accident-prone. And, BTW, by practice I mean the use of attention and/or awareness, not anything concerned with thinking, feelings-emotions or bodily doing.
Maybe about 20 years ago someone recommended to me a book by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, The Crystal and the Way of Light, Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen. I had not heard of Dzogchen previously, not directly anyway. It was very good, so I looked for more. I ran across this small book, 100 pages, The Mirror, Advice on the Presence of Awareness by Norbu, in a used bookstore. It had a few markings, not that many, I thought I could find an unmarked copy for about the same price. Got home, searched Amazon, I was wrong. It was a very rare book with a very hefty price, so I went back to the bookstore and it was still there. First published in 1983, again 1989, again in 1996, it has never come back into print. Back cover: The text includes detailed instructions in discovering the "State" of Rig-pa both in sitting meditation and as it is practiced in Dzogchen, and integrating this awareness with all of one's activities. I'll start here, as Dzogchen is kind of a practice without practicing. It goes directly to the natural state, one name for pristine awareness (which is another name), or the primordial state or nature. I have subsequently read over 20 books on Dzogchen, I'd put it 2nd after Gurdjieff, I later found out why. Dzogchen essentially preexisted Buddhism in Tibet, Bon essentially already-had Dzogchen, previous to Padmasambhava traveling from India to Tibet bringing Dzogchen, he is the quintessential Dzogchen teacher, called the second Buddha. Comments welcome, I'll probably mostly do quotes, or responses.
"The Buddhas of the past have attained Enlightenment, just as will those of the future, by following the path of continuous presence with unwavering attention. And those attaining it at this time do so by grounding themselves in presence, because there is no other way of attaining Enlightenment. The recognition of our true State and the continuation of its presence really is the essence of all paths, the basis of all meditation, the conclusion of all practices, the pith of all the secret methods, and the key to all the deeper teachings. This is why it is vitally important that we seek out our way to maintain continuous presence without being pulled off.
This means: not hanging on to the past, not going after the future, and, without letting ourselves get involved in the illusory thoughts arising in the present moment, turning inwards and observing our own mind, leaving it in its true State beyond the limitations of past, present and future. Without letting ourselves be conditioned by contaminating conceptualization, without passing judgement on the State itself, whether indeed it even exists, whether it will turn out to be positive or negative, etc., we must stay focused in this authentic condition and not try to correct it.
Although the primordial State of total perfection is completely beyond the limits of past, present and future, one is not immediately aware of this and indeed has difficulty recognizing it when first starting to practice, and therefore it is important to be on the alert against distraction by thoughts of the "three times". Similarly, if, intent upon not letting one's attention be diverted, one tries to eliminate all thoughts, fixating on the idea of having to find a state of calm or of pleasure, it is essential to see that this is also a mistake, because such a fixation itself is nothing more than another thought". pages 32,33, The Mirror, Advice on the Presence of Awareness by Namkhai Norbu, 1996.
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Post by tenka on Jul 2, 2023 13:34:46 GMT -5
I've been considering this thread for a while, today seemed the day. Yes, I get why "ND" considers no direct benefit from practice, SR is acausal. And, you can't practice yourself into what you already are. But even "ND" admits there is indirect benefit to practice, stating it makes one accident-prone. And, BTW, by practice I mean the use of attention and/or awareness, not anything concerned with thinking, feelings-emotions or bodily doing. Just because we are what we are .. doesn't mean that there is the immediate realisation of this . There are billions that haven't realised what they are in this lifetime . So what are they to do? If they are ripe and ready to realise then perhaps there isn't much to do .. If they are unripe then there is lots to do . |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 0:36:59 GMT -5
I've been considering this thread for a while, today seemed the day. Yes, I get why "ND" considers no direct benefit from practice, SR is acausal. And, you can't practice yourself into what you already are. But even "ND" admits there is indirect benefit to practice, stating it makes one accident-prone. And, BTW, by practice I mean the use of attention and/or awareness, not anything concerned with thinking, feelings-emotions or bodily doing. Just because we are what we are .. doesn't mean that there is the immediate realisation of this . There are billions that haven't realised what they are in this lifetime . So what are they to do? If they are ripe and ready to realise then perhaps there isn't much to do .. If they are unripe then there is lots to do . Whenever I encounter one of those silly non-dualists who say what's the point of practicing because there is no one here, there is no one existing who could practice then I simply say well just pretend you're a person. Pretend you're a doer and just do the damned practice and see what the heck happens. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 0:50:03 GMT -5
Yes, I get why "ND" considers no direct benefit from practice, SR is acausal. Really? I don't know where that would come from. Take for instance the Ramakrishna order which is totally steeped in Advaita Vedanta. They all meditate. There's a YouTube video somewhere of Swami Sarvapriyananda talking about when he was given his mantra. And of course there's Ramana Maharshi who advocated self inquiry and Nisargadatta Maharaj who spoke about the meditation of being with the I am principle which was his practice given to him by his Guru and which he practiced intensely for 3 years before Self-realizing. Both of those sages are firmly rooted in the tradition of non-duality. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 3, 2023 7:26:59 GMT -5
Yes, I get why "ND" considers no direct benefit from practice, SR is acausal. Really? I don't know where that would come from. Take for instance the Ramakrishna order which is totally steeped in Advaita Vedanta. They all meditate. There's a YouTube video somewhere of Swami Sarvapriyananda talking about when he was given his mantra. And of course there's Ramana Maharshi who advocated self inquiry and Nisargadatta Maharaj who spoke about the meditation of being with the I am principle which was his practice given to him by his Guru and which he practiced intensely for 3 years before Self-realizing. Both of those sages are firmly rooted in the tradition of non-duality. Yes, sorry, you are absolutely correct. Thus, I put "ND" in quotes, air quotes. I should have specified the ND view mostly advocated here on ST's, it's an off brand. I don't buy this view that practice makes one accident prone. Practice is the ticket. And that's why I've started this thread. Thanks. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 7:33:02 GMT -5
Yes, sorry, you are absolutely correct. Thus, I put "ND" in quotes, air quotes. I should have specified the ND view mostly advocated here on ST's, it's an off brand. I don't buy this view that practice makes one accident prone. Practice is the ticket. And that's why I've started this thread. Thanks. Ok understood. That's what confused me. I always took you to be pro practice. So you ain't no slimy neo advaitin. 😃 |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 3, 2023 7:45:18 GMT -5
Just because we are what we are .. doesn't mean that there is the immediate realisation of this . There are billions that haven't realised what they are in this lifetime . So what are they to do? If they are ripe and ready to realise then perhaps there isn't much to do .. If they are unripe then there is lots to do . Whenever I encounter one of those silly non-dualists who say what's the point of practicing because there is no one here, there is no one existing who could practice then I simply say well just pretend you're a person. Pretend you're a doer and just do the damned practice and see what the heck happens. That's why the ND view expressed here needs some tweaking. I get that there is a self we thought we were, but are not. That fits perfectly in ~my paradigm~. And here it is also even admitted that there is an actual individuation. For sdp, that's what practices. It's nonsense to say that ATA-T just happens in this body. It's not nonsense, but why not just admit that the individuality is practicing, because you're correct, it's happening in an individual body. But these are just words on the screen, everybody has to figure this out. But that's why I say essence (what one was born with or born as) is the true individuality. It is a self, but not the self we thought we were (which is yes, imaginary). It is a (temporary) wave in the ocean, which is a bad metaphor, a wave has no comparison to the complexity of a human. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 3, 2023 7:48:01 GMT -5
Yes, sorry, you are absolutely correct. Thus, I put "ND" in quotes, air quotes. I should have specified the ND view mostly advocated here on ST's, it's an off brand. I don't buy this view that practice makes one accident prone. Practice is the ticket. And that's why I've started this thread. Thanks. Ok understood. That's what confused me. I always took you to be pro practice. So you ain't no slimy neo advaitin. 😃 No, I ain't no slimy neo advaitin (and that's a nod to maxprophet).  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 7:52:20 GMT -5
Whenever I encounter one of those silly non-dualists who say what's the point of practicing because there is no one here, there is no one existing who could practice then I simply say well just pretend you're a person. Pretend you're a doer and just do the damned practice and see what the heck happens. That's why the ND view expressed here needs some tweaking. I get that there is a self we thought we were, but are not. That fits perfectly in ~my paradigm~. And here it is also even admitted that there is an actual individuation. For sdp, that's what practices. It's nonsense to say that ATA-T just happens in this body. It's not nonsense, but why not just admit that the individuality is practicing, because you're correct, it's happening in an individual body. But these are just words on the screen, everybody has to figure this out. But that's why I say essence (what one was born with or born as) is the true individuality. It is a self, but not the self we thought we were (which is yes, imaginary). It is a (temporary) wave in the ocean, which is a bad metaphor, a wave has no comparison to the complexity of a human. There isn't just one kind of non-duality. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 3, 2023 10:48:30 GMT -5
Just because we are what we are .. doesn't mean that there is the immediate realisation of this . There are billions that haven't realised what they are in this lifetime . So what are they to do? If they are ripe and ready to realise then perhaps there isn't much to do .. If they are unripe then there is lots to do . Whenever I encounter one of those silly non-dualists who say what's the point of practicing because there is no one here, there is no one existing who could practice then I simply say well just pretend you're a person. Pretend you're a doer and just do the damned practice and see what the heck happens.  From what little I've read that's the approach of traditionalists like Schwartz or that orange guy from L.A. .. a "provisional sense of 'I'", or something along those lines. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 10:51:25 GMT -5
Whenever I encounter one of those silly non-dualists who say what's the point of practicing because there is no one here, there is no one existing who could practice then I simply say well just pretend you're a person. Pretend you're a doer and just do the damned practice and see what the heck happens. From what little I've read that's the approach of traditionalists like Schwartz or that orange guy from L.A. .. a "provisional sense of 'I'", or something along those lines. Lol. There's nothing provisional about the sense of I. You just referred to yourself as I. |
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Post by laughter on Jul 3, 2023 10:59:11 GMT -5
From what little I've read that's the approach of traditionalists like Schwartz or that orange guy from L.A. .. a "provisional sense of 'I'", or something along those lines. Lol. There's nothing provisional about the sense of I. You just referred to yourself as I. tee hee sure, but what anyone ever means by anything they write is always subject to the possibility of misinterpretation by the reader.  .. ( .. noticing the pun will cut to the chase ..) |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 3, 2023 13:09:20 GMT -5
Really? I don't know where that would come from. Take for instance the Ramakrishna order which is totally steeped in Advaita Vedanta. They all meditate. There's a YouTube video somewhere of Swami Sarvapriyananda talking about when he was given his mantra. And of course there's Ramana Maharshi who advocated self inquiry and Nisargadatta Maharaj who spoke about the meditation of being with the I am principle which was his practice given to him by his Guru and which he practiced intensely for 3 years before Self-realizing. Both of those sages are firmly rooted in the tradition of non-duality. Yes, sorry, you are absolutely correct. Thus, I put "ND" in quotes, air quotes. I should have specified the ND view mostly advocated here on ST's, it's an off brand. I don't buy this view that practice makes one accident prone. Practice is the ticket. And that's why I've started this thread. Thanks. What this phrase points to a correlation between meditative activities and realizations. I've pointed this out before, but a British website in the past asked people to send in their accounts of major spiritual experiences (they didn't differentiate between experiences and realizations in the way that we do, but it doesn't really matter). They asked those people to report on what they were doing immediately prior to whatever happened or their psychological condition. The number one reported condition was abject despair. Tolle would be one well-known example of this as well as people like Satyam Nadeem. Obviously a sage can't tell people to feel abject despair if they don't already feel that, so that would be a ridiculous pointer. However, the next three most reported activities were: meditation, being alone in nature, and reading spiritual literature. I sometimes laughingly tell people if they want to increase their odds, they should meditate alone in nature with an inspiring spiritual book. In the newly-published book "The Varieties of Spiritual Experience," by Yaden and Newberg, which is an update of William James' classic book, "The Varieties of Religious Experience," chapter six is titled "Origins, Triggers of spiritual experience." The triggers for spiritual experiences that those scientists have listed include: Prayer Nature Grief Meditation Church service Depression Solidtude etc. Although none of these things might be considered causal, it seems obvious that they are certainly correlated, and all but one individual I know who has attained SR meditated or contemplated what they wanted to know on a regular basis. Until SR occurs, it will seem as if there is a "me" choosing to meditate, and perhaps even making a big effort to do so, but afterwards this will be seen to have been nothing more than a huge cognitive illusion predicated upon the idea of being a SVP. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 3, 2023 14:42:59 GMT -5
Yes, sorry, you are absolutely correct. Thus, I put "ND" in quotes, air quotes. I should have specified the ND view mostly advocated here on ST's, it's an off brand. I don't buy this view that practice makes one accident prone. Practice is the ticket. And that's why I've started this thread. Thanks. What this phrase points to a correlation between meditative activities and realizations. I've pointed this out before, but a British website in the past asked people to send in their accounts of major spiritual experiences (they didn't differentiate between experiences and realizations in the way that we do, but it doesn't really matter). They asked those people to report on what they were doing immediately prior to whatever happened or their psychological condition. The number one reported condition was abject despair. Tolle would be one well-known example of this as well as people like Satyam Nadeem. Obviously a sage can't tell people to feel abject despair if they don't already feel that, so that would be a ridiculous pointer. However, the next three most reported activities were: meditation, being alone in nature, and reading spiritual literature. I sometimes laughingly tell people if they want to increase their odds, they should meditate alone in nature with an inspiring spiritual book. In the newly-published book "The Varieties of Spiritual Experience," by Yaden and Newberg, which is an update of William James' classic book, "The Varieties of Religious Experience," chapter six is titled "Origins, Triggers of spiritual experience." The triggers for spiritual experiences that those scientists have listed include: Prayer Nature Grief Meditation Church service Depression Solidtude etc. Although none of these things might be considered causal, it seems obvious that they are certainly correlated, and all but one individual I know who has attained SR meditated or contemplated what they wanted to know on a regular basis. Until SR occurs, it will seem as if there is a "me" choosing to meditate, and perhaps even making a big effort to do so, but afterwards this will be seen to have been nothing more than a huge cognitive illusion predicated upon the idea of being a SVP. I agree with you, I've said many times the 'cognitive illusion' consists of just copies of information, stored in the neural structure. Do you deny that such information exists? But that is not who we are. We are, at minimum, the body, attention, awareness, and I will continue to say that's the true individuation, our uniqueness. The so-called SVP can't practice because it consists of mere copies, and copies of copies. If you lay a book on a table, it surely can't practice. The same. However, the living breathing edge, is practice itself. That's what Dzogchen teaches, it's their way to experience the natural state, our primordial nature. It fit my view, I didn't derive my view from Dzogchen. I don't do SR. I'm more of a pragmatic-experience nuts & bolts guy. So I say there is a direct relationship between practice and Truth-finding. And that's what this thread is about. But that's what ND is lacking, you say that what ~inhabits-is-the-body~ is All That Is. I call the individuation-uniqueness-Itsselfness living edge, essence. Do you deny ZD is unique? All that is not complicated for sdp. And, I was a despair guy, I've written a pretty good deal about that. Some time ago Sree drew more of that out of me, I guess about a year ago. I just started a thread for Sree if he should come back, it's speculation on my part, if the video relates to him. I chanced on that video this morning. it pretty well explained me from about 12-24, increasingly, and off and on at times afterwards. I wanted not to exist. A seeing that reincarnation was part of how the universe worked showed me suicide wasn't a legitimate way out, I'd just be passing the problem to the future. When I read Tolle, I understood his dilemma clearly. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 20:17:26 GMT -5
Yes, sorry, you are absolutely correct. Thus, I put "ND" in quotes, air quotes. I should have specified the ND view mostly advocated here on ST's, it's an off brand. I don't buy this view that practice makes one accident prone. Practice is the ticket. And that's why I've started this thread. Thanks. What this phrase points to a correlation between meditative activities and realizations. I've pointed this out before, but a British website in the past asked people to send in their accounts of major spiritual experiences (they didn't differentiate between experiences and realizations in the way that we do, but it doesn't really matter). They asked those people to report on what they were doing immediately prior to whatever happened or their psychological condition. The number one reported condition was abject despair. Tolle would be one well-known example of this as well as people like Satyam Nadeem. Obviously a sage can't tell people to feel abject despair if they don't already feel that, so that would be a ridiculous pointer. However, the next three most reported activities were: meditation, being alone in nature, and reading spiritual literature. I sometimes laughingly tell people if they want to increase their odds, they should meditate alone in nature with an inspiring spiritual book. In the newly-published book "The Varieties of Spiritual Experience," by Yaden and Newberg, which is an update of William James' classic book, "The Varieties of Religious Experience," chapter six is titled "Origins, Triggers of spiritual experience." The triggers for spiritual experiences that those scientists have listed include: Prayer Nature Grief Meditation Church service Depression Solidtude etc. Although none of these things might be considered causal, it seems obvious that they are certainly correlated, and all but one individual I know who has attained SR meditated or contemplated what they wanted to know on a regular basis. Until SR occurs, it will seem as if there is a "me" choosing to meditate, and perhaps even making a big effort to do so, but afterwards this will be seen to have been nothing more than a huge cognitive illusion predicated upon the idea of being a SVP. You have to be prepared to go along with the cosmic joke that a me is required to meditate, only to discover from the meditation practice itself that there is no me. |
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From what little I've read that's the approach of traditionalists like Schwartz or that orange guy from L.A. .. a "provisional sense of 'I'", or something along those lines.
.. ( .. noticing the pun will cut to the chase ..)