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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 12:11:05 GMT -5
Experience moves up and low. When it goes too high, it comes down to anger rage, when it goes little high, then it comes down to irritation. It's a wave. Bipolarity is a disorder treated by doctors, but for many folks, it's entirely possible to bliss out in meditation for a while, without going into rage the next day. What a nonsense |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 12:12:52 GMT -5
You have been immersed in your belief. Ask a simple question, If you know nobody is responsible for what's happening, then why are you angry and for what? Would you go and stab the character who acted in the movie after completing the movie? Don't know that's scripted? There's momentum to our conditioning. If you find yourself getting angry with your wife or your daughter it doesn't mean that you haven't realized the existential truth about personhood, it just means that there is conditioning playing itself out. The realization is timeless, in an instant, and is of what can be pointed to as unconditioned. These human reactions are conditioning, and are time-bound. Yes, that conditioning is due to the belief that somebody over there has caused something. So that conditioning has to fade away followed by your realisation. Yes? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 12:15:51 GMT -5
Perfectness is right now and here, everything moves around according our inner nature. We are creating the world around us and people in it with our belief and the clarity. New clarity will remove certain people from lives . . But this "inner nature": ultimately there is no "inner", there is no "outer". You know that already. The question for you is, "what creates"? It's not the illusory false personal self, but then again, it's also undeniable that this "inner state" is not insignificant, once we start considering issues like anger. Yes, false is not creating the reality because that doesn't exist. Our being creates the reality. But it won't create properly when it believes something that's not true, for an example when it believes that permanent happiness can be attained. |
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Post by andrew on Jun 21, 2023 12:15:58 GMT -5
That's what I assumed you meant--fleeting with no carryover. Much like little children who get irritated with one another and five minutes later they're playing happily again. As an adult, no thoughts like "it shouldn't have happened," no thoughts about selfhood, just empty irritation that sometimes goes beyond a mild response. I was calling that stronger response "anger," but I guess we could find another word for it. One example that I vividly remember involved a concrete truck driver. A helper and I were pouring footings in hot weather, and what I assume was a poorly-trained driver was dumping too much concrete into the trenches, which required extraordinary effort to drag and level the stiff concrete (anyone who has dragged concrete with a come-along or a rake in hot weather will understand the issue--it makes you pull your guts out). We kept telling the guy to watch the grade stakes and not dump too much concrete as he moved forward, but he kept doing it. After twenty minutes of this, my helper and I got what I would call "angrier and angrier" because he was killing us, but he refused to slow the discharge rate or respond to what we kept telling him. Either that or he was so clueless that he didn't realize the amount of additional work he was making us do. Afterwards, I called the concrete company and told them to never send us that driver again. On that particular day we definitely blamed the guy for making us work ten times harder than would have been necessary if a good driver had been at the wheel of the truck. We went from being increasingly irritated to totally pissed off and exhausted by the time he left the site. I suppose someone sitting in an air-conditioned room thinking logically might conclude that our response was utterly unenlightened, but I would love to see such a person put in the same situation. Could things have been any different? No, because that's the driver that got sent to us, and that was how reality unfolded that day. There were no thoughts about how things should have been any different; it was simply, "Expletive! Expletive! Expletive! Stop killing us!" I call that response "anger," and I don't think it has a thing to do with how deeply realized someone is.  It is the best example of what I have been saying. If I were there, then I would get angry too. But that's where my important point lies. It's not about making your inner cool, and let the outer world be whatever way it is. That's not what we are saying. Everything that gets unfolded is one single story, It could have occurred differently, may be an efficient driver's arrival might have made you happy. So there lies the point. These emotions express a belief in lack on some level, and point to the potential for inner growth but I believe you are too idealistic about 'realization' and the mirage thing is just an analogy, and so is flawed. Enigma had stresses dealing with forest fires in the last year or two. Life reveals our shadow spots, but I think it's unreasonable to expect realization to dissolve or heal ALL these shadow spots. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 12:17:17 GMT -5
Too much to read, please write less next time. Ok. This is the boiled down version. 
"So long as discrete, individuals are experienced, experiential personal accountability.....personal agency is still to some degree." going to remain in play.
You are talking about when one believes himself to be a doer, yes? |
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Post by andrew on Jun 21, 2023 12:18:08 GMT -5
Bipolarity is a disorder treated by doctors, but for many folks, it's entirely possible to bliss out in meditation for a while, without going into rage the next day. What a nonsense Because it's not your personal experience, right? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 12:21:30 GMT -5
Experience moves up and low. When it goes too high, it comes down to anger rage, when it goes little high, then it comes down to irritation. It's a wave. The observation of patterns within experience can never move beyond just that; A mere observation of an apparent, experiential pattern. You cannot rely on those apparent patterns to try to arrive at fundamental "law"....."Truth" about the how's and why's of what appears/arises in experience.
I do agree, experiential, relatively speaking, my life experience to date, has indeed been observed as moving in thoe 'waves'....where some stuff is liked/preferred, other stuff, not so much....emotions feelings experienced are on the upper part of the emotional scale, and then they move downwards, an ongoing dance of sorts, and all without 'problem,' so long as there is no judgment heaped upon that experiential dance/movement.
My experience does not support that necessity for a very 'high' feeling/emotion to then extend very 'low.' It's only the lower depths that dissolve in the absence of an SVP. Joy.....awe....bliss...whatever label you give to strongly positive, loving feelings are abundant, and absent an inevitable movement down into depths of deep discord.
Liking and disliking is not about rollercoaster. It's the movement of feeling in your life. The story which brings that emotion could be anything. If you force yourself to experience to much happiness, then downside of the rollercoaster can't be avoided, the depth can't be avoided |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 12:22:57 GMT -5
Recognizing that life is a rollercoaster ride marks the initial stage of the human game. Without this realization, one remains at the starting line, yet to embark on the game of life. It is indeed a very basic seeing that the happenings of life are going to dance up and down between liked/disliked to some degree, regardless of what's been realized.
So yes, I think I am in agreement with what you're saying there.
It's a hallmark of the imagined separate person to try to fight against that movement between polarities of human judgment/likes/dislikes re: what appears in experience. The SVP wants to try to control that wave so that only the upper echelons of the scale are experienced....the SVP does not accept the 'dancing/moving/constantly changing' nature of feelings emotions and that's largely what 'suffering' is all about.
yes. But I dislike the word like dislike |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 12:24:17 GMT -5
You are creating people with certain characteristic to express certain aspect in you. If you remove that expression through your new clarity, then those people who are needed for that expression would be removed as well. Is this realization based seeing/knowing? If so, by what means have you realized it? Truth is not revealed by experiential content and what you are describing above there, IS very much 'experiential content.'
Just because you have reference for experience (perhaps many experiences) whereby you came to a certain clarity and then a certain person dropped from your life, does not mean that clarity is actually/Absolutely 'causal/creative' to the ensuing disappearance of that person from your life.
Cause/effect, time, while indeed remaining facets of the ongoing story, post SR, are now seen to ultimately be illusory/inferred. The clarity, the disappearance of the specific person, the perception/observation of that happening, the arrival at the conclusion that the "clarity" created/caused the disappearance, ALL OF IT, in the dream content....an appearance....cannot be relied upon to tell you the Absolute/existential Truth.
You are free to reject me here if you wish. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 12:27:40 GMT -5
Enigma is another person whom you have interacted with. He claims to be lost anger when he attains the clarity. He did describe at times "expressing" what may have appeared to an onlooker to be anger....a recall a story of some incident regarding his ex, where to get her to leave him alone, he felt compelled to raise his voice...yell....but he described it as a sort of "faux anger," whereby he remained completely conscious and aware of what was happening.
That's very much something I can relate to, specifically re: my pet mess story...there was the "holy shit" response....and isn't this inconvenient and crazy, but there was also simultaneously, or very quickly on the heels of that response, an ability to laugh and see the lighter side....so very much an absence of 'immersion' in the expressed resistant response.
I think it's important to listen to ZD as he describes what is 'absent' in those experiences he's sharing.....he seems to be quite clear in his last response that there is no stickiness....no lasting impression. I think it was Satchi who used a really metaphor for this....the sand/foot-print that immediately gets smoothed out as the next wave rides up to wash it.
That faux anger Enigma describe is not an anger at all. Anger is all about how you feel towards the given situation it's not about how you change your outward appearaance. |
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Post by figrebirth on Jun 21, 2023 12:28:54 GMT -5
No, it could not have happened any differently. How do I know that without a doubt? Because it didn't. I enjoy telling people that it's impossible to make a mistake because there is no alternative to whatever actually happens except in imagination. The reason I enjoy telling people interested in ND this is because it can put their minds at ease about what a "correct approach" to waking up might be. People think about what appear to be choices in the past and they think, "I had a choice between A and B, and I mistakenly chose B when I should have chosen A." They imagine that there was an alternative course of action, but that idea is solely a product of imagination. Reality unfolds however it unfolds, and there is no SVP doing anything. Whatever happens happens in whatever way it happens. End of story. Around age 10 my daughter's motto in the face of someone's expressed regret became; There is no 'other' world/life/experience where things could have gone any different than how they went, so stop fretting about what you should have done....what might have been....what happened was the only way it could go, because that's how it DID go. Very similar to what you're sayin' there, to which I do very much agree. That said, relatively speaking, it's accurate to say that observing and analyzing responses/approaches and making adjustments in future stimilar circumstance, does remain part and parcel of experience, even after realizing that ultimately, all unfolds in perfection. This sounds like a context mix to me. The "roller-coaster" is purely a descriptor of the 'dancing' nature of feelings/emotions. There obviously WAS some degree of reflective thought, relatively, psychologically speaking in your judgment of the cement pour and then your arrival at the thought that you did not want this person to be part of your future cement projects/pours, no? Realizing fundamental perfection does not mean that negative judgments re: appearing conditions will therefore cease all together. As I see it, it simply means the "depth" of judgments only extends so far....no longer is there "fundamental" judgment in play as there is when the SVP is imagined. Again, the roller-coaster is simply a reference to relative experiential content. To deny that feelings move up and down is to adopt the brown-bear position where experiential content is denied. No need for that. It's okay that feelings continue to express in an up/down dance where certain conditions are personally liked....others not so much. That's all just a facet of the story/dream. "Equanimity" as you're using it there, I think then, references a more fundamental contentment that abides even as a temporary moment of irritation/frustration arises...? It's important not to deny the fact that feelings/emotions still continue to arise and move up/down, post SR. Many have the erroneous idea that a sage no longer feels anything other than abject joy/bliss all the time...no frustration/irritation ever.....a dude dumping cement will-nilly all over a job site will be met with love and appreciation, kind of thing.... Last week hubs had a run in with a power hedge trimmer.  Thought he'd cut all his fingers off.....they were able to save all four, may lose the top of his index as he sawed right through the bone.  He's in remarkable good spirits about it all....already tackling renos at the condo we're moving into....although he says he's taking the incident as a reminder to slow down...yeah right... To be fair though, you DID, relatively, experientially speaking have expectations about how the concrete dude should pour the concrete. Again, this seems to be a bit of a context mix. No 'desires' for life to fundamentally be different than what it is is something different than a relative preference/liking for how a concrete pour will go. To say there are no longer "any expectations" simply does not jibe with an arising of irritation/frustration when a concrete pour goes different to how you prefer it to go. It's important that we continue to acknowledge that personality, likes/disliked, relative, experiential personal judgments do to some degree, continue to arise, even post SR/awakening. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 12:29:02 GMT -5
I do read, don't worry. The funny thing in your teaching is, you claims that personal self-hood is illusion which means you know no one is responsible for what's happening and you still say yet you get angry on them. Does that make any sense? Will you fetch water when you realize that what you perceive ahead is not a pool of water but a mirage? It's really important in this 'anger' convo to pay attention to precisely how someone is defining that word....what they actually mean. Otherwise, you're talking apples and the other may be talking oranges. I know what he is saying eventhough I am not a native speaker of English while ZD is the native English speaker. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 12:30:15 GMT -5
It is the best example of what I have been saying. If I were there, then I would get angry too. But that's where my important point lies. It's not about making your inner cool, and let the outer world be whatever way it is. That's not what we are saying. Everything that gets unfolded is one single story, It could have occurred differently, may be an efficient driver's arrival might have made you happy. So there lies the point. You are positing then an experience that is only filled with stuff that the person judges to be wanted/positive/liked. That's not what it means to be awake. The personality complete with likes/dislikes continues on post awakening. And experience...the appearing world, complete with distinction, polarities, continues to arise.
You've said yourself that the wave/movement, up/down nature of feeling/emotion is a natural facet of experience, haven't you? What you are positing is the end of that up/down movement....where only 'liked' content arises. That would mean the complete end of personal judgment and so long as a me character continues to appear, that's nothing more than an erroneous idea.
I have never written something like that |
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Post by figrebirth on Jun 21, 2023 12:30:52 GMT -5
You have been immersed in your belief. Ask a simple question, If you know nobody is responsible for what's happening, then why are you angry and for what? Would you go and stab the character who acted in the movie after completing the movie? Don't know that's scripted? There's momentum to our conditioning. If you find yourself getting angry with your wife or your daughter it doesn't mean that you haven't realized the existential truth about personhood, it just means that there is conditioning playing itself out. The realization is timeless, in an instant, and is of what can be pointed to as unconditioned. These human reactions are conditioning, and are time-bound. Totally agree, but it's also so that realization does impact that conditioning. Specifically to what degree though and specifically how, obviously cannot be said. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 12:32:14 GMT -5
It is the best example of what I have been saying. If I were there, then I would get angry too. But that's where my important point lies. It's not about making your inner cool, and let the outer world be whatever way it is. That's not what we are saying. Everything that gets unfolded is one single story, It could have occurred differently, may be an efficient driver's arrival might have made you happy. So there lies the point. These emotions express a belief in lack on some level, and point to the potential for inner growth but I believe you are too idealistic about 'realization' and the mirage thing is just an analogy, and so is flawed. Enigma had stresses dealing with forest fires in the last year or two. Life reveals our shadow spots, but I think it's unreasonable to expect realization to dissolve or heal ALL these shadow spots. Forests fire enigma faces collapse what he has been saying ? |
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Thought he'd cut all his fingers off.....they were able to save all four, may lose the top of his index as he sawed right through the bone. 
He's in remarkable good spirits about it all....already tackling renos at the condo we're moving into....although he says he's taking the incident as a reminder to slow down...yeah right...