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Post by zazeniac on May 7, 2023 13:31:43 GMT -5
The story of Juzhi is quite relevant nowadays. Lots of folks holding up one finger.
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Post by zendancer on May 7, 2023 13:37:18 GMT -5
The story of Juzhi is quite relevant nowadays. Lots of folks holding up one finger. Gotta love that story! |
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Post by inavalan on May 7, 2023 16:46:21 GMT -5
The first reaction to the story might be to feel pity for the mischievous boy, and contempt for the cruel master ... A deeper interpretation: the deserved retribution for pretending to be a teacher. There is, there always was, there'll always be an abundance of pretending teachers and experts (in whatever field).   |
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Post by laughter on May 7, 2023 17:26:06 GMT -5
The story of Juzhi is quite relevant nowadays. Lots of folks holding up one finger. (** snip! **) |
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Post by zendancer on May 7, 2023 19:08:14 GMT -5
The story is most likely untrue (for several reasons), but it's a great koan. I used to hold up one finger in silence in response to any of my young daughter's "why" questions. It irritated her enormously, but one day 35 years later she suddenly penetrated the meaning of that gesture, and today we laugh about it a lot.
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Post by laughter on May 7, 2023 21:06:09 GMT -5
The story is most likely untrue (for several reasons), but it's a great koan. I used to hold up one finger in silence in response to any of my young daughter's "why" questions. It irritated her enormously, but one day 35 years later she suddenly penetrated the meaning of that gesture, and today we laugh about it a lot. Seems to me that sometimes, Zen people do resort to metaphor.  |
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Post by zazeniac on May 8, 2023 6:24:25 GMT -5
The story of Juzhi is quite relevant nowadays. Lots of folks holding up one finger. (** snip! **) Though I rarely hold up a finger with the exception of the middle one.😁 |
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Post by andrew on May 8, 2023 8:30:29 GMT -5
Though I rarely hold up a finger with the exception of the middle one.😁 haha honestly, I thought that was likely to have been the joke in your first message |
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Post by zazeniac on May 8, 2023 10:49:14 GMT -5
Though I rarely hold up a finger with the exception of the middle one.😁 haha honestly, I thought that was likely to have been the joke in your first message Interesting. Perhaps a Freudian thing on my part. I'll take it, but the original intent was to make a statement about parroting in nonduality. Squawk! Squawk! Speaking of which, have you ever tried listening to what you're saying as you speak. Funny how quickly we lose that focus and ramble on mindlessly. Not talking about you in particular, but about me and by extension folks in general. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 8, 2023 10:57:07 GMT -5
Though I rarely hold up a finger with the exception of the middle one.😁 haha honestly, I thought that was likely to have been the joke in your first message In shop in the 7th grade we had a beltline. So everybody wore the heaviest thickest belt you could find. 12 points got you the beltline. There was a list of rules that if broken got you points. Types of swearing got you points. God Damn got you 12 points. Sometimes when somebody had to run the beltline, they said GD, and the teacher said, OK, go again, now. I think F___ was the only other automatic 12 points. I don't remember all the rules, there were minor infractions. It took me all year to get 11 points, I never ran the beltline. You had to work on timing your swing, or else you could miss altogether. I'm sure somewhere between then and now beltlines are no more. ....But there was of course, the finger. It was a lot of points, but not 12. But there too, there was the disguised finger. It got you points too, but not as many as the finger. Maybe the boy did get his finger cut off, I wouldn't doubt it, small price to pay for enlightenment. ...But then, thereafter, he could only do a disguised finger. But somewhere between then and now, the Zen Masters probably decided cutting cats into 2 and cutting off fingers probably wasn't politically correct. |
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Post by andrew on May 8, 2023 12:34:55 GMT -5
haha honestly, I thought that was likely to have been the joke in your first message Interesting. Perhaps a Freudian thing on my part. I'll take it, but the original intent was to make a statement about parroting in nonduality. Squawk! Squawk! Speaking of which, have you ever tried listening to what you're saying as you speak. Funny how quickly we lose that focus and ramble on mindlessly. Not talking about you in particular, but about me and by extension folks in general. I'm not sure I can do it, I tested it and as soon as I bring attention to the words....I fall silent. A very good way to shut myself up lol But I have had the experience in the last few months of being on the phone to a friend, who has been struggling with a few things. He talks a lot, far more than me. But eventually I have something to say, and when it comes out, he tends to listen for about 30 seconds, and then I sense him zoning out, which is really fine. But as I sense him zoning, I become aware of myself prattling on and not being able to find a nice clean and tidy way of stopping the prattle, it's kind of funny. |
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Post by andrew on May 8, 2023 12:45:36 GMT -5
haha honestly, I thought that was likely to have been the joke in your first message In shop in the 7th grade we had a beltline. So everybody wore the heaviest thickest belt you could find. 12 points got you the beltline. There was a list of rules that if broken got you points. Types of swearing got you points. God Damn got you 12 points. Sometimes when somebody had to run the beltline, they said GD, and the teacher said, OK, go again, now. I think F___ was the only other automatic 12 points. I don't remember all the rules, there were minor infractions. It took me all year to get 11 points, I never ran the beltline. You had to work on timing your swing, or else you could miss altogether. I'm sure somewhere between then and now beltlines are no more. ....But there was of course, the finger. It was a lot of points, but not 12. But there too, there was the disguised finger. It got you points too, but not as many as the finger. Maybe the boy did get his finger cut off, I wouldn't doubt it, small price to pay for enlightenment. ...But then, thereafter, he could only do a disguised finger. But somewhere between then and now, the Zen Masters probably decided cutting cats into 2 and cutting off fingers probably wasn't politically correct. LOL yes, in Britain we had the 'V' sign....has the same meaning....and same as you, we had to come up with innovative disguised ways of giving it.. ''I was only scratching my cheek Mrs Johnson!''  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on May 8, 2023 12:56:52 GMT -5
In shop in the 7th grade we had a beltline. So everybody wore the heaviest thickest belt you could find. 12 points got you the beltline. There was a list of rules that if broken got you points. Types of swearing got you points. God Damn got you 12 points. Sometimes when somebody had to run the beltline, they said GD, and the teacher said, OK, go again, now. I think F___ was the only other automatic 12 points. I don't remember all the rules, there were minor infractions. It took me all year to get 11 points, I never ran the beltline. You had to work on timing your swing, or else you could miss altogether. I'm sure somewhere between then and now beltlines are no more. ....But there was of course, the finger. It was a lot of points, but not 12. But there too, there was the disguised finger. It got you points too, but not as many as the finger. Maybe the boy did get his finger cut off, I wouldn't doubt it, small price to pay for enlightenment. ...But then, thereafter, he could only do a disguised finger. But somewhere between then and now, the Zen Masters probably decided cutting cats into 2 and cutting off fingers probably wasn't politically correct. LOL yes, in Britain we had the 'V' sign....has the same meaning....and same as you, we had to come up with innovative disguised ways of giving it.. ''I was only scratching my cheek Mrs Johnson!''  My oldest daughter's (now former) husband is in the Navy. There is a story, I think I have this right. But they were stationed in Spain twice (Rota), almost six years. So my grandson was there from about 2-8, my granddaughter from (almost)0-6. Well, here you point with your index finger. In Spain it seems that they point with the middle finger. So when they came back to the states, stationed at Jacksonville, Fla., daughter, caught him in the act, had to tell son, no, no, no..you can't point with that finger in the states.  |
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Post by zazeniac on May 9, 2023 9:28:16 GMT -5
The finger raised as opposed to mental gyrations. Still it doesn't do it, Zen, justice. Juzhi didn't cut off the finger to punish. I invite you NOT to think about it. It's like the punchline in a joke. If you have to explain it, then it's not a joke.
Not that thinking isn't fun. It is. It's taking it, and therefore yourself, seriously. Hullabaloo made grandiose.
I was thinking in Taoism opposites are complements. Quite different than advaita, I think.
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Post by zendancer on May 9, 2023 9:53:54 GMT -5
The finger raised as opposed to mental gyrations. Still it doesn't do it, Zen, justice. Juzhi didn't cut off the finger to punish. I invite you NOT to think about it. It's like the punchline in a joke. If you have to explain it, then it's not a joke. Not that thinking isn't fun. It is. It's taking it, and therefore yourself, seriously. Hullabaloo made grandiose. I was thinking in Taoism opposites are complements. Quite different than advaita, I think. I think I mentioned what happened on the day that I penetrated the Juzhi one-finger koan. I had read that koan many times and didn't have a clue about it. I went for a Zen interview and the teacher handed me a book of koans turned to that particular koan. As soon as I glanced at it, I said, "I'm familiar with this koan, but I have no idea what the answer is." The teacher replied, "First, hit!" In the Quan Um School of Zen slapping the floor with an open hand is considered a broad initial answer to any koan. I stopped thinking and just slapped the floor, and the moment I did so, the answer to the koan suddenly became obvious. I then responded with what must have been an amazed look on my face. Apparently, by slapping the floor the intellect was bypassed for a moment and the answer then became obvious. |
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