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Post by zendancer on Dec 21, 2023 8:18:38 GMT -5
If sitting in Zen is already enlightenment, then why did Dogen tell people that he woke up that day if he was already awake? There is no contradiction. Awareness is already the case, but becoming aware of Awareness, is an awakening. I suspect that Dogen was aware of awareness long before his spiritual search came to an end. If becoming aware of awareness were equivalent to enlightenment, then virtually every ND seeker would already be enlightened, and I doubt that many people would agree with that claim. The question is, "What did Dogen realize in China after many years of seeking that he had NOT realized prior to that time?" The language issue is that the word "awakening" in ND circles means something different than "waking up from being asleep." Everyone who can read these words is already awake, so the word "awakening" in ND is a synonym for "realization" or "insight" rather than "becoming aware of awareness."  |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 21, 2023 8:44:59 GMT -5
There is no contradiction. Awareness is already the case, but becoming aware of Awareness, is an awakening. I suspect that Dogen was aware of awareness long before his spiritual search came to an end. If becoming aware of awareness were equivalent to enlightenment, then virtually every ND seeker would already be enlightened, and I doubt that many people would agree with that claim. The question is, "What did Dogen realize in China after many years of seeking that he had NOT realized prior to that time?" The language issue is that the word "awakening" in ND circles means something different than "waking up from being asleep." Everyone who can read these words is already awake, so the word "awakening" in ND is a synonym for "realization" or "insight" rather than "becoming aware of awareness." Yes, it's hard to keep up with so many nuances of such terms, as they are used so differently by people, in studies, and in different interpretations of the context at hand. ND discussions are almost like code of sorts, and any attempt to get the point across the chasm and/or past the guard dogs of the mind is mostly futile, though who knows what becomes of the attempt. Interesting stuff. The Zen masters took the easy route and just sent seekers to the mats, and maybe thwack'em for the attempt.  I suspect they took the principle of "The Tao that can be spoken..." to heart, and emphasized the direct 'route' of meditation, like Stoicism on steroids. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 21, 2023 8:55:36 GMT -5
I always read about this koan and saw it as weirdly innappropriate. Nothing including humans "have" Buddha nature. This is plainly obvious. "To have" implies possession, very different than "to be." Plus the notion that anyone or anything is enlightened seems foreign. How can Buddha-nature be acausal if you don't have it then you do? Magic? Quantum particles, yes. I always interpreted "having Buddha Nature" as equivalent to saying "everything is an aspect of the absolute" or "everything is a part of God." FWIW, Buddha Nature is neither causal nor acausal; it is what it is beyond ideation. Only the realization of Buddha Nature, or THIS, is acausal. Yes, it's hard for most any conditioned mind to come to terms with acausality. A view of its impossibility seems to be formed by the unconscious beliefs obscuring even openness to the potentiality. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 21, 2023 9:52:20 GMT -5
"Mu" means "no" for those unfamiliar with this koan. In the Rinzai Zen tradition, the "Mu" koan is given to students interested in enlightenment. If s student answers the koan ("what is Mu?") correctly, s/he is often tested (to check if s/he was given the answer by someone else by being asked other related koans, such as: 1. The Buddha said that everything has Buddha Nature (is THIS), but Jo Ju said that a dog does NOT have Buddha Nature (is NOT THIS). Which master was correct? 2. Why did Jo Ju answer "Mu?" 3. If you met Mu at the train station on a Saturday morning, what would you say? 4. Does a dog actually have Buddha nature? If a student can answer these kinds of questions spontaneously, then his/her answer to the Mu koan is accepted as valid. FWIW, there are dozens of fascinating and humorous stories about various students who struggled with the Mu koan. I always read about this koan and saw it as weirdly innappropriate. Nothing including humans "have" Buddha nature. This is plainly obvious. "To have" implies possession, very different than "to be." Plus the notion that anyone or anything is enlightened seems foreign. How can Buddha-nature be acausal if you don't have it then you do? Magic? Quantum particles, yes. It's both a trick question as well as a misconceived question. There's more than one answer to it. If you, let's say, want to go the mental kungfu route, you first have to establish that there is something that is called 'dog' before you can consider if that 'dog' has or has not Buddha nature. |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 21, 2023 9:55:40 GMT -5
I suspect that Dogen was aware of awareness long before his spiritual search came to an end. If becoming aware of awareness were equivalent to enlightenment, then virtually every ND seeker would already be enlightened, and I doubt that many people would agree with that claim. The question is, "What did Dogen realize in China after many years of seeking that he had NOT realized prior to that time?" The language issue is that the word "awakening" in ND circles means something different than "waking up from being asleep." Everyone who can read these words is already awake, so the word "awakening" in ND is a synonym for "realization" or "insight" rather than "becoming aware of awareness." Yes, it's hard to keep up with so many nuances of such terms, as they are used so differently by people, in studies, and in different interpretations of the context at hand. ND discussions are almost like code of sorts, and any attempt to get the point across the chasm and/or past the guard dogs of the mind is mostly futile, though who knows what becomes of the attempt. Interesting stuff. The Zen masters took the easy route and just sent seekers to the mats, and maybe thwack'em for the attempt. I suspect they took the principle of "The Tao that can be spoken..." to heart, and emphasized the direct 'route' of meditation, like Stoicism on steroids. Right, that's the difference between Zen and Chan. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 21, 2023 10:01:01 GMT -5
There is no contradiction. Awareness is already the case, but becoming aware of Awareness, is an awakening. I suspect that Dogen was aware of awareness long before his spiritual search came to an end. If becoming aware of awareness were equivalent to enlightenment, then virtually every ND seeker would already be enlightened, and I doubt that many people would agree with that claim. The question is, "What did Dogen realize in China after many years of seeking that he had NOT realized prior to that time?" The language issue is that the word "awakening" in ND circles means something different than "waking up from being asleep." Everyone who can read these words is already awake, so the word "awakening" in ND is a synonym for "realization" or "insight" rather than "becoming aware of awareness." What I am saying is the before Niz’s teacher told him he was God, and before Niz awakened to that reality, he was already God. Already enlightened. Already Awreness. Are you suggesting that a CC experience ( a face to face meeting with God) is the only way the search can come to an end? |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 21, 2023 10:03:31 GMT -5
Yes, it's hard to keep up with so many nuances of such terms, as they are used so differently by people, in studies, and in different interpretations of the context at hand. ND discussions are almost like code of sorts, and any attempt to get the point across the chasm and/or past the guard dogs of the mind is mostly futile, though who knows what becomes of the attempt. Interesting stuff. The Zen masters took the easy route and just sent seekers to the mats, and maybe thwack'em for the attempt. I suspect they took the principle of "The Tao that can be spoken..." to heart, and emphasized the direct 'route' of meditation, like Stoicism on steroids. Right, that's the difference between Zen and Chan. Agreed. |
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Post by zazeniac on Dec 21, 2023 10:13:36 GMT -5
There is no contradiction. Awareness is already the case, but becoming aware of Awareness, is an awakening. I suspect that Dogen was aware of awareness long before his spiritual search came to an end. If becoming aware of awareness were equivalent to enlightenment, then virtually every ND seeker would already be enlightened, and I doubt that many people would agree with that claim. The question is, "What did Dogen realize in China after many years of seeking that he had NOT realized prior to that time?" The language issue is that the word "awakening" in ND circles means something different than "waking up from being asleep." Everyone who can read these words is already awake, so the word "awakening" in ND is a synonym for "realization" or "insight" rather than "becoming aware of awareness." As RM might say every seeker is enlightened, but for the thought/ belief that they are a separate self. Don't really know much about Dogen other than he was the founder of the Soto school of Zen. Thusly, he promoted the notion of gradual awakening. I would call it inadvertent awakening where the focus is the grindstone not the eventual sharpened knife. RM also speaks of savikalpa samadhi in ever increasing episodes eventually becoming permanent. Whether there's a big event instance seems to be exceptional in my view. Not discounting it, obviously RM had such an event. It is described in great detail. In Soto, the present is paramount, as Hedderman might call it, "what's happening" versus "whats not happening." Ignorance is characterized by the incessant need to escape the present. Usually there is discomfort that we choose to avoid. The vehicle that allows us to escape the present is the ego or mind, the fuel for that that vehicle are thoughts. Zazen practice is pretty much geared around depriving that vehicle of its fuel, very much like RM's version of surrender which in my view is no different than SI. At first that practice is formal and structured, but eventually there are indications that it does not have to be encapsulated in structured sessions, that it can pervade every moment even those off the cushion. Funny, but Lolly speaks of focusing on the sensations of his hands to anchor him to the present. Very much like the breath does in zazen. You speak of it also in ATA. All these deprive the ego of its fuel. To Dogen the top of the mountain is not relevant, only the next step. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 21, 2023 11:11:02 GMT -5
I suspect that Dogen was aware of awareness long before his spiritual search came to an end. If becoming aware of awareness were equivalent to enlightenment, then virtually every ND seeker would already be enlightened, and I doubt that many people would agree with that claim. The question is, "What did Dogen realize in China after many years of seeking that he had NOT realized prior to that time?" The language issue is that the word "awakening" in ND circles means something different than "waking up from being asleep." Everyone who can read these words is already awake, so the word "awakening" in ND is a synonym for "realization" or "insight" rather than "becoming aware of awareness." What I am saying is the before Niz’s teacher told him he was God, and before Niz awakened to that reality, he was already God. Already enlightened. Already Awreness. Are you suggesting that a CC experience ( a face to face meeting with God) is the only way the search can come to an end? No, not at all. What I'm saying is that there's a difference between being THIS and realizing THIS. Everyone and everything is already THIS, but it usually isn't realized. When it's realized, all efforting and inner turmoil ceases because THIS, in the form of a human, has discovered the source of all phenomena, and there's no separate volitional entity involved in doing anything. All experiences, even CC's, are transient, but the realization of THIS reveals what is NOT transient. Many seekers 100% intellectually understand that the SVP is a cognitive illusion, but until a realization occurs that internalizes that understanding so that it's felt "in one's bones," so to speak, seeking usually continues. The seeking continues until the false seeker vanishes/is seen through. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 21, 2023 11:36:18 GMT -5
I suspect that Dogen was aware of awareness long before his spiritual search came to an end. If becoming aware of awareness were equivalent to enlightenment, then virtually every ND seeker would already be enlightened, and I doubt that many people would agree with that claim. The question is, "What did Dogen realize in China after many years of seeking that he had NOT realized prior to that time?" The language issue is that the word "awakening" in ND circles means something different than "waking up from being asleep." Everyone who can read these words is already awake, so the word "awakening" in ND is a synonym for "realization" or "insight" rather than "becoming aware of awareness." As RM might say every seeker is enlightened, but for the thought/ belief that they are a separate self. Don't really know much about Dogen other than he was the founder of the Soto school of Zen. Thusly, he promoted the notion of gradual awakening. I would call it inadvertent awakening where the focus is the grindstone not the eventual sharpened knife. RM also speaks of savikalpa samadhi in ever increasing episodes eventually becoming permanent. Whether there's a big event instance seems to be exceptional in my view. Not discounting it, obviously RM had such an event. It is described in great detail. In Soto, the present is paramount, as Hedderman might call it, "what's happening" versus "whats not happening." Ignorance is characterized by the incessant need to escape the present. Usually there is discomfort that we choose to avoid. The vehicle that allows us to escape the present is the ego or mind, the fuel for that that vehicle are thoughts. Zazen practice is pretty much geared around depriving that vehicle of its fuel, very much like RM's version of surrender which in my view is no different than SI. At first that practice is formal and structured, but eventually there are indications that it does not have to be encapsulated in structured sessions, that it can pervade every moment even those off the cushion. Funny, but Lolly speaks of focusing on the sensations of his hands to anchor him to the present. Very much like the breath does in zazen. You speak of it also in ATA. All these deprive the ego of its fuel. Agreed. During the time period of Dogen Zen was characterized by Zen Masters who responded to seekers in all kinds of outrageous ways--by striking them, yelling at them, twisting their nose, etc. They did this because these kinds of radical responses to seekers and their questions were sometimes astonishingly effective. After Dogen's big realization, however, he emphasized "just sitting" rather than anything dramatic because he knew that everything and everyone is already THIS. That's why he said, "Zazen is enlightenment and enlightenment is zazen." He knew that there's no way to practice being what one already IS, so his approach was "Sit down and become silent until the truth becomes obvious." It is simply a different approach that can lead to the discovery of THIS. Consider the story of Rinzai in contrast. Rinzai did zazen for about two years, and the head monk told him that he ought to go express his understanding to the master of the monastery. Rinzai went to see the ZM, expressed his understanding, and the ZM beat him up and threw him out of his room! Rinzai concluded that he, himself, must be a pathetic Zen student. He told the head monk what had happened, and the head monk told him that he had probably misunderstood. He encouraged him to go back to the ZM and explain himself better. Rinzai made a second attempt and, again, the ZM beat him up and threw him out. Thoroughly discouraged, Rinzai told the head monk what had happened, and the head monk advised Rinzai to go see another ZM at another monastery. Rinzai took that advice and went to see the neighboring ZM. That ZM asked him why he had come to see him. Rinzai explained everything that had happened, and the ZM responded, in essence, "You miserable punk! Your wonderful grandmotherly ZM was trying to wake you up and you're so dam* clueless that you didn't understand!" Upon saying this, the ZM pummeled Rinzai, and as soon as Rinzai felt the blows, he finally understood what was going on, laughed loudly, and shoved the ZM away. He then returned to his own monastery where the monks and the ZM were hoeing in a garden. The ZM saw Rinzai and said something like, "What is this stupid fellow doing back here?" Rinzai then slugged the ZM and knocked him on his butt. This act astonished and horrified the head monk, but the ZM got up and said, in essence, "Give Rinzai a place at the head of the table" because he realized that Rinzai had discovered THIS. Two different approaches. Sitting in silence for twenty years often results in realization, but so does getting knocked on your butt! |
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Post by laughter on Dec 21, 2023 13:33:57 GMT -5
I always read about this koan and saw it as weirdly innappropriate. Nothing including humans "have" Buddha nature. This is plainly obvious. "To have" implies possession, very different than "to be." Plus the notion that anyone or anything is enlightened seems foreign. How can Buddha-nature be acausal if you don't have it then you do? Magic? Quantum particles, yes. was basically Dogen's question. (If we already have Buddha-nature, why do we have to practice and meditate and work to realize it?) He went around asking everyone, wtf people? He eventually even went to China, still asking. Just when he was about to give up, he found his teacher (who had the answer). When his teacher died within a couple of years, he went back to Japan to teach. What he found? Zazen is enlightenment, enlightenment is zazen. No if this, then that, no cause and effect. Just do zazen. Gudo Nishijima ~believed~ Dogen *reverse engineered* Buddhism to find the original teaching of Buddha. He ~believed~ Nagarjuna did the same thing. IOW, most Buddhists have gotten the 4 Noble Truths, wrong, according to Nishijima. (That's kind of tipping my toes into the waters, starting a new thread, sometime). It's possible to both practice and at the same time know that there is nowhere to go, nothing to do, and nothing new to learn or acquire. This is the head in the tigers mouth. I get nostalgic, thinking about it. |
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Post by laughter on Dec 21, 2023 13:45:29 GMT -5
I suspect that Dogen was aware of awareness long before his spiritual search came to an end. If becoming aware of awareness were equivalent to enlightenment, then virtually every ND seeker would already be enlightened, and I doubt that many people would agree with that claim. The question is, "What did Dogen realize in China after many years of seeking that he had NOT realized prior to that time?" The language issue is that the word "awakening" in ND circles means something different than "waking up from being asleep." Everyone who can read these words is already awake, so the word "awakening" in ND is a synonym for "realization" or "insight" rather than "becoming aware of awareness." As RM might say every seeker is enlightened, but for the thought/ belief that they are a separate self. Don't really know much about Dogen other than he was the founder of the Soto school of Zen. Thusly, he promoted the notion of gradual awakening. I would call it inadvertent awakening where the focus is the grindstone not the eventual sharpened knife. RM also speaks of savikalpa samadhi in ever increasing episodes eventually becoming permanent. Whether there's a big event instance seems to be exceptional in my view. Not discounting it, obviously RM had such an event. It is described in great detail. In Soto, the present is paramount, as Hedderman might call it, "what's happening" versus "whats not happening." Ignorance is characterized by the incessant need to escape the present. Usually there is discomfort that we choose to avoid. The vehicle that allows us to escape the present is the ego or mind, the fuel for that that vehicle are thoughts. Zazen practice is pretty much geared around depriving that vehicle of its fuel, very much like RM's version of surrender which in my view is no different than SI. At first that practice is formal and structured, but eventually there are indications that it does not have to be encapsulated in structured sessions, that it can pervade every moment even those off the cushion. Funny, but Lolly speaks of focusing on the sensations of his hands to anchor him to the present. Very much like the breath does in zazen. You speak of it also in ATA. All these deprive the ego of its fuel. To Dogen the top of the mountain is not relevant, only the next step. . |
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Post by justlikeyou on Dec 23, 2023 19:40:40 GMT -5
I suspect that Dogen was aware of awareness long before his spiritual search came to an end. In what way was Dogen aware of awareness before his spiritual search ended? |
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I suspect they took the principle of "The Tao that can be spoken..." to heart, and emphasized the direct 'route' of meditation, like Stoicism on steroids.
