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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 23, 2022 13:30:30 GMT -5
God, I hope so. 😵  🥴  .. I've never had a full-blown optical field dissolution or sudden and dramatic change of scenery, although I've read about them and have been close to two people who had that happen but it was considered a pathology. But I have experienced a few sudden ** shifts ** that would be very difficult to describe, and came with various energy-release and informings of mind. Perception can be a rather curious thing.  But yeah, I've played with such visuals most of my life. Earlier memories of doing so take me back to farm life during the summers, hanging out in the breeze of the barn. Nah, the visuals are a bit more like scenery that pops up spontaneously, but with a little shifts in pre-verbal mentation, can be manipulated and/or just gone with. The beauty of them rank up there with those one might see on psychedelics, I suppose. Oddly, too much poking at it tends to make the activity just disappear altogether. Considering what I've read about some of the Tibetan stuff, there's likely a way to improve upon the willful aspect of it, but I've never pursued them to any extent. I'd never really considered it a siddhi, but more like a gift of time-out. It does give rise to dropping off worldly baggage though, so that's nice enough. |
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Post by japhy on Jan 15, 2023 1:03:22 GMT -5
.. I've never had a full-blown optical field dissolution or sudden and dramatic change of scenery, although I've read about them and have been close to two people who had that happen but it was considered a pathology. But I have experienced a few sudden ** shifts ** that would be very difficult to describe, and came with various energy-release and informings of mind. Perception can be a rather curious thing. I did not know the term "optical field dissolution" but it hits the nail on the head. It can be scary at first. What used to freak me out were changes in scenery but with the perception of people. That and strong energy-releases and my heart beating at maximum rate during sitting meditation. Nowadays everything is pretty calm. Did your friends require treatment or did it pass by itself if I may ask? |
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Post by laughter on Jan 15, 2023 3:28:26 GMT -5
.. I've never had a full-blown optical field dissolution or sudden and dramatic change of scenery, although I've read about them and have been close to two people who had that happen but it was considered a pathology. But I have experienced a few sudden ** shifts ** that would be very difficult to describe, and came with various energy-release and informings of mind. Perception can be a rather curious thing. I did not know the term "optical field dissolution" but it hits the nail on the head. It can be scary at first. What used to freak me out were changes in scenery but with the perception of people. That and strong energy-releases and my heart beating at maximum rate during sitting meditation. Nowadays everything is pretty calm. Did your friends require treatment or did it pass by itself if I may ask? Hey japhy, great to see you 'round again. As I said the only people I've actually met who had this happen to them got snarled in the medical system. They viewed the altered states as something to be medicated, they'd come and go. All I can say beyond that is I wish I'd known then what I know now. I hope you know enough to let these energies flow through, and if you hit a really weird patch, you can always attend the actual, right? |
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Post by japhy on Jan 15, 2023 16:56:36 GMT -5
Hey japhy, great to see you 'round again. As I said the only people I've actually met who had this happen to them got snarled in the medical system. They viewed the altered states as something to be medicated, they'd come and go. All I can say beyond that is I wish I'd known then what I know now. I hope you know enough to let these energies flow through, and if you hit a really weird patch, you can always attend the actual, right? Hi Laughter, thank you for your kind words means a lot to the japhy persona. Walking and gardening are always great when dealing with such experiences. I have to say that I have lived with the energies for more than 10 years now. The first ~three years were more challenging and maybe some episodes later, but lately it's more like another sense I can tune into if I wish to. The body hum as you call it. If I start sitting a lot the processes might get more intense and some of the visual stuff might appear again. I do not have many people to talk to about it and then it's always a bit of a taboo since it's more of a side track (when talking about SR). But having accepted that I think it's good for me to talk about it. Nothing to go after, but then it's part of my experience. It was quite interesting for me to read about the high heart rate in the Three pillars of Zen recently several years after having that experience myself (for the first time). And now you talking about visual field dissolution and I immedialty knew what you are talking about. Or the change of scenery. With people it's the perception of their face that can change from moment to moment. Interesting that some people seem to be more likely to experience such whereas others do not. |
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Post by japhy on Jan 15, 2023 16:58:37 GMT -5
All I can say beyond that is I wish I'd known then what I know now. For the people you know we can just wish the best |
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Post by laughter on Jan 16, 2023 1:30:30 GMT -5
Hey japhy, great to see you 'round again. As I said the only people I've actually met who had this happen to them got snarled in the medical system. They viewed the altered states as something to be medicated, they'd come and go. All I can say beyond that is I wish I'd known then what I know now. I hope you know enough to let these energies flow through, and if you hit a really weird patch, you can always attend the actual, right? Hi Laughter, thank you for your kind words means a lot to the japhy persona. Walking and gardening are always great when dealing with such experiences. I have to say that I have lived with the energies for more than 10 years now. The first ~three years were more challenging and maybe some episodes later, but lately it's more like another sense I can tune into if I wish to. The body hum as you call it. If I start sitting a lot the processes might get more intense and some of the visual stuff might appear again. I do not have many people to talk to about it and then it's always a bit of a taboo since it's more of a side track (when talking about SR). But having accepted that I think it's good for me to talk about it. Nothing to go after, but then it's part of my experience. It was quite interesting for me to read about the high heart rate in the Three pillars of Zen recently several years after having that experience myself (for the first time). And now you talking about visual field dissolution and I immedialty knew what you are talking about. Or the change of scenery. With people it's the perception of their face that can change from moment to moment. Interesting that some people seem to be more likely to experience such whereas others do not. Ah, gardening .. a literial grounding of oneself, excellent! Sharon is a gardener as well. When you say it happens more often if you start sitting, do you mean, sitting meditation? We all talk some out-there stuff on this forum, so no worries there, but someone is bound to come along and offer you unsolicited advice.  .. jest take it with a pound 'o salt. One thing I notice that almost always happens if I get into an interval of meditating frequently and for time (which for me isn't very long, like 20 min) is .. synchronicity. It's like Buzz Lightyear whispering in my ear .. "coincidences! coincidences ... EVERYWHERE!". But, of course, that's not the only "siddi" I've had happen. In mechanistic terms, human perception can be a very fascinating topic. If we abstract our perceptual field as a dynamic flow of information gathered by our sensory organs, we can come to understand the nature of commercial magic and optical illusions, like this one: Some of us (and I mean, all of humanity) have an interest in exploring the nature of reality. For some of us it's sort of a natural inclination, and even for some other's who don't know they're interested in it, they might be prone to the types of shifts in perspective that can happen when that exploration is conducted. The conventional sense of reality is quite structured, rigid, even. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 23, 2023 21:39:09 GMT -5
That bad, eh? ** imagines SN in disheveled sadhu outfit ** Nah, I wore comfortable cottons (baggy pajama-like pants/shirt and lungies) in the cities/villages when there, but mostly minimally geared up for treks/camping. It was more about the intensity with which I was on the move and/or some less-than-desirable habits she might have frowned upon. She had been living with her missionary sister/brother-in-law family in Uzbekistan when we met, and I was still coming to terms with the implosion. She was never really a good Christian, but the conditioned responses were there. Good thing she loved nature, trekking, art, and simple living more, so it has been a wonderful dance since we met, though not without its bumps. someNOTHING, this is the post I was referring to. It's possible I (later) deleted my reply. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 24, 2023 8:18:48 GMT -5
Nah, I wore comfortable cottons (baggy pajama-like pants/shirt and lungies) in the cities/villages when there, but mostly minimally geared up for treks/camping. It was more about the intensity with which I was on the move and/or some less-than-desirable habits she might have frowned upon. She had been living with her missionary sister/brother-in-law family in Uzbekistan when we met, and I was still coming to terms with the implosion. She was never really a good Christian, but the conditioned responses were there. Good thing she loved nature, trekking, art, and simple living more, so it has been a wonderful dance since we met, though not without its bumps. someNOTHING, this is the post I was referring to. It's possible I (later) deleted my reply. Thank you. I will peruse the G material a bit more after the season. I'm in festive and support mode with loved ones and my personal Pachamama. Until then, what have you discovered in the 'know thyself' exploration? You've given some very nice story lines that dripped with a certain almost movie-like nostalgia, which I thought was very cool, btw. But, I'm curious of what you discovered as the general walls and boundaries that you might consider universal to people peeps' sense of self (i.e., knowledge of self), and what you found to be useful to transcend such obstacles in the way of genuine expansion beyond/'ascension above' previous held beliefs. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 24, 2023 9:13:02 GMT -5
Hey japhy, great to see you 'round again. As I said the only people I've actually met who had this happen to them got snarled in the medical system. They viewed the altered states as something to be medicated, they'd come and go. All I can say beyond that is I wish I'd known then what I know now. I hope you know enough to let these energies flow through, and if you hit a really weird patch, you can always attend the actual, right? Hi Laughter, thank you for your kind words means a lot to the japhy persona. Walking and gardening are always great when dealing with such experiences. I have to say that I have lived with the energies for more than 10 years now. The first ~three years were more challenging and maybe some episodes later, but lately it's more like another sense I can tune into if I wish to. The body hum as you call it. If I start sitting a lot the processes might get more intense and some of the visual stuff might appear again. I do not have many people to talk to about it and then it's always a bit of a taboo since it's more of a side track (when talking about SR). But having accepted that I think it's good for me to talk about it. Nothing to go after, but then it's part of my experience. It was quite interesting for me to read about the high heart rate in the Three pillars of Zen recently several years after having that experience myself (for the first time). And now you talking about visual field dissolution and I immedialty knew what you are talking about. Or the change of scenery. With people it's the perception of their face that can change from moment to moment. Interesting that some people seem to be more likely to experience such whereas others do not. Oh, this posting brings back memories--both the heart thing and reading about it in "The Three Pillars of Zen." Human organisms can experience all kinds of unusual stuff on the pathless path. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 24, 2023 9:51:01 GMT -5
someNOTHING, this is the post I was referring to. It's possible I (later) deleted my reply. Thank you. I will peruse the G material a bit more after the season. I'm in festive and support mode with loved ones and my personal Pachamama. Until then, what have you discovered in the 'know thyself' exploration? You've given some very nice story lines that dripped with a certain almost movie-like nostalgia, which I thought was very cool, btw. But, I'm curious of what you discovered as the general walls and boundaries that you might consider universal to people peeps' sense of self (i.e., knowledge of self), and what you found to be useful to transcend such obstacles in the way of genuine expansion beyond/'ascension above' previous held beliefs. Hey, what came to mind just now upon reading this is chief feature. Chief feature is our ultimate blind spot. It's called chief feature because our whole psychology is built around it, we are blind to it because it's negative, it's difficult to see what we're really like, the warts. There are several general categories, think of, generally, the seven deadly sins, greed/avarice, sloth (laziness), gluttony, pride, jealousy/envy, have to look up the rest, wrath, lust. Now, fine tune one of the categories for each individual person. Fine tuned, because there are 7 billion+ chief features on Earth. It is almost impossible to see our own chief feature. Even with years of self-study and self-observation it's difficult to begin to get even a glimpse our chief feature. Think of an anchor for the self, think of a wheel where all of the spokes go back to the center, chief feature. And then when we find our chief feature, that's where our real work is, it's like a black hole that just sucks all our energy. For over the last 30 years, going back to the beginning, I considered mine had to do with either fear or laziness. Then maybe about ten years started to get a glimpse, a direction to look in. I guess you know what a *floater* is? Well, I figured out long ago it's a blood vessel in your own eye. It's hard to look at a floater because when you look at it it jumps away. Seeing chief feature is like that, you try to look at it and it jumps away. But basically your whole life is centered around your chief feature, it's everywhere and in everything. Your wife is more likely to know what your chief feature is than you are, or a close friend, a long friend, a BFF. And when you start to get a real glimpse, it's like s**t, Oh, wow, can't belief that, can't believe I never saw that before. It's like walking into a dark room, and turning a dimmer on low. As time passes, weeks, months, years, you see more and more, and begin to fine tune your chief feature. I pretty-much see my chief feature, now. Nasty, the worst, how could anybody have a worst chief feature? But you must permit me not to share that, what it is. So, you all are full of **i*. You're all deluded if think there is no imaginary self. The imaginary self is very real in and as the connections in the neural structure, tough as an old leather shoe. I say all that with all kindness, and with a dash of pity, and a pinch of humor.  If you truly have no self, then you know what your chief feature used-to-be, that's inevitable. Chief feature is a tyrant, it rules your whole *****n* life. Seeing it, is like this, to yourself, the first, of many: |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 24, 2023 11:02:18 GMT -5
Thank you. I will peruse the G material a bit more after the season. I'm in festive and support mode with loved ones and my personal Pachamama. Until then, what have you discovered in the 'know thyself' exploration? You've given some very nice story lines that dripped with a certain almost movie-like nostalgia, which I thought was very cool, btw. But, I'm curious of what you discovered as the general walls and boundaries that you might consider universal to people peeps' sense of self (i.e., knowledge of self), and what you found to be useful to transcend such obstacles in the way of genuine expansion beyond/'ascension above' previous held beliefs. Hey, what came to mind just now upon reading this is chief feature. Chief feature is our ultimate blind spot. It's called chief feature because our whole psychology is built around it, we are blind to it because it's negative, it's difficult to see what we're really like, the warts. There are several general categories, think of, generally, the seven deadly sins, greed/avarice, sloth (laziness), gluttony, pride, jealousy/envy, have to look up the rest, wrath, lust. Now, fine tune one of the categories for each individual person. Fine tuned, because there are 7 billion+ chief features on Earth. It is almost impossible to see our own chief feature. Even with years of self-study and self-observation it's difficult to begin to get even a glimpse our chief feature. Think of an anchor for the self, think of a wheel where all of the spokes go back to the center, chief feature. And then when we find our chief feature, that's where our real work is, it's like a black hole that just sucks all our energy. For over the last 30 years, going back to the beginning, I considered mine had to do with either fear or laziness. Then maybe about ten years started to get a glimpse, a direction to look in. I guess you know what a *floater* is? Well, I figured out long ago it's a blood vessel in your own eye. It's hard to look at a floater because when you look at it it jumps away. Seeing chief feature is like that, you try to look at it and it jumps away. But basically your whole life is centered around your chief feature, it's everywhere and in everything. Your wife is more likely to know what your chief feature is than you are, or a close friend, a long friend, a BFF. And when you start to get a real glimpse, it's like s**t, Oh, wow, can't belief that, can't believe I never saw that before. It's like walking into a dark room, and turning a dimmer on low. As time passes, weeks, months, years, you see more and more, and begin to fine tune your chief feature. I pretty-much see my chief feature, now. Nasty, the worst, how could anybody have a worst chief feature? But you must permit me not to share that, what it is. So, you all are full of **i*. You're all deluded if think there is no imaginary self. The imaginary self is very real in and as the connections in the neural structure, tough as an old leather shoe. I say all that with all kindness, and with a dash of pity, and a pinch of humor. If you truly have no self, then you know what your chief feature used-to-be, that's inevitable. Seeing it, is like this, to yourself, the first, of many: I'm happy to see a bit more intensity and openness in how you feel. When I first read 'floater', my mind went to thinking about toilets. But, yes, the blind spot is a good example of something that is profound to wake up to. Even the blind spot in one's vision is 'filled in by the mind' in order to make an appearance of a 'whole' field of vision. An interesting thing to contemplate in the search. My massive wake up to which you are referring (and perhaps assuming hasn't happened to 'others' here) happened in about 1992, and it was a brutal wake up call, even though there had been some existential shifts prior to it. The breakdown was gloriously intense. So, yes, I am conscious of my features, and my wife of 23 glorious years gives me the wink on occasion. She also tells me she enjoys the sense of space when we are together as one (our Rada-Krishna story unfolds within). On the other hand, some of my loved ones think I'm odd or peculiar, edgy and sometimes an ass, adventurous, intense but laid-back, confusing but content (maybe deluded), uncompromising on some things while completely carefree on others, etc. It goes on, no doubt. All Good. Speaking of potential blind spots, would Gurdji regurgitate something along these lines (see visual, red print is mine) to his flock? If so, would he be pointing to ND? Just something to consider or contemplate. My additions are just something I'm playing with (as explained to Tenka), so they're subject to change.  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 24, 2023 11:46:24 GMT -5
Hey, what came to mind just now upon reading this is chief feature. Chief feature is our ultimate blind spot. It's called chief feature because our whole psychology is built around it, we are blind to it because it's negative, it's difficult to see what we're really like, the warts. There are several general categories, think of, generally, the seven deadly sins, greed/avarice, sloth (laziness), gluttony, pride, jealousy/envy, have to look up the rest, wrath, lust. Now, fine tune one of the categories for each individual person. Fine tuned, because there are 7 billion+ chief features on Earth. It is almost impossible to see our own chief feature. Even with years of self-study and self-observation it's difficult to begin to get even a glimpse our chief feature. Think of an anchor for the self, think of a wheel where all of the spokes go back to the center, chief feature. And then when we find our chief feature, that's where our real work is, it's like a black hole that just sucks all our energy. For over the last 30 years, going back to the beginning, I considered mine had to do with either fear or laziness. Then maybe about ten years started to get a glimpse, a direction to look in. I guess you know what a *floater* is? Well, I figured out long ago it's a blood vessel in your own eye. It's hard to look at a floater because when you look at it it jumps away. Seeing chief feature is like that, you try to look at it and it jumps away. But basically your whole life is centered around your chief feature, it's everywhere and in everything. Your wife is more likely to know what your chief feature is than you are, or a close friend, a long friend, a BFF. And when you start to get a real glimpse, it's like s**t, Oh, wow, can't belief that, can't believe I never saw that before. It's like walking into a dark room, and turning a dimmer on low. As time passes, weeks, months, years, you see more and more, and begin to fine tune your chief feature. I pretty-much see my chief feature, now. Nasty, the worst, how could anybody have a worst chief feature? But you must permit me not to share that, what it is. So, you all are full of **i*. You're all deluded if think there is no imaginary self. The imaginary self is very real in and as the connections in the neural structure, tough as an old leather shoe. I say all that with all kindness, and with a dash of pity, and a pinch of humor. If you truly have no self, then you know what your chief feature used-to-be, that's inevitable. Seeing it, is like this, to yourself, the first, of many: I'm happy to see a bit more intensity and openness in how you feel. When I first read 'floater', my mind went to thinking about toilets. But, yes, the blind spot is a good example of something that is profound to wake up to. Even the blind spot in one's vision is 'filled in by the mind' in order to make an appearance of a 'whole' field of vision. An interesting thing to contemplate in the search. My massive wake up to which you are referring (and perhaps assuming hasn't happened to 'others' here) happened in about 1992, and it was a brutal wake up call, even though there has been some existential shifts prior to it. The breakdown was gloriously intense. So, yes, I know my features, and my wife of 23 glorious years gives me the wink on occasion. She also tells me she enjoys the sense of space when we are together as one (our Rada-Krishna story unfolds within). On the other hand, some of my loved ones think I'm odd or peculiar, edgy and sometimes an ass, adventurous, intense but laid-back, confusing but content (maybe deluded), uncompromising on some things while completely carefree on others, etc. It goes on, no doubt. All Good. Speaking of potential blind spots, would Gurdji regurgitate something along these lines (see visual, red print is mine) to his flock? If so, would he be pointing to ND? Just something to consider or contemplate. My additions are just something I'm playing with (as explained to Tenka), so they're subject to change. , very much so. The left side, emanation, basically would equal involution, the outward path, the right side transcendence would roughly mean {conscious} evolution, the return path. The Noetic circle would be an empty category, moving downward. It is *~filled in~* in the movement back upward. The top, the Absolute would be Everything. The bottom would be Nothing. But as in an octave, do, re, me, fa, sol, la {si(ti)} Do, Everything and Nothing connect, do and Do. The path down is Do [Everything], si/ti, la, sol, fa, me, re, Do-[Nothing], a descending octave, then back up (transcendence) do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si/ti Do, an ascending octave. Of course this is also Ouroboros. Moving downward, the Noetic circle would include two higher centers, the Higher Intellectual Center and the Higher Emotional Center, but we presently have no means to connect with them (it's basically as-if they don't exist). It's possible to have a temporary connection with the Higher Intellectual Center (it's just a name), a rare occurrence. This would be Big Mind in Buddhism, or generally, CC (in Burke's sense of CC), it's an obliterated glimpse. Nice. Those are my first thoughts. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 24, 2023 11:59:44 GMT -5
I'm happy to see a bit more intensity and openness in how you feel. When I first read 'floater', my mind went to thinking about toilets. But, yes, the blind spot is a good example of something that is profound to wake up to. Even the blind spot in one's vision is 'filled in by the mind' in order to make an appearance of a 'whole' field of vision. An interesting thing to contemplate in the search. My massive wake up to which you are referring (and perhaps assuming hasn't happened to 'others' here) happened in about 1992, and it was a brutal wake up call, even though there has been some existential shifts prior to it. The breakdown was gloriously intense. So, yes, I know my features, and my wife of 23 glorious years gives me the wink on occasion. She also tells me she enjoys the sense of space when we are together as one (our Rada-Krishna story unfolds within). On the other hand, some of my loved ones think I'm odd or peculiar, edgy and sometimes an ass, adventurous, intense but laid-back, confusing but content (maybe deluded), uncompromising on some things while completely carefree on others, etc. It goes on, no doubt. All Good. Speaking of potential blind spots, would Gurdji regurgitate something along these lines (see visual, red print is mine) to his flock? If so, would he be pointing to ND? Just something to consider or contemplate. My additions are just something I'm playing with (as explained to Tenka), so they're subject to change. , very much so. The left side, emanation, basically would equal involution, the outward path, the right side transcendence would roughly mean {conscious} evolution, the return path. The Noetic circle would be an empty category, moving downward. It is *~filled in~* in the movement back upward. The top, the Absolute would be Everything. The bottom would be Nothing. But as in an octave, do, re, me, fa, sol, la {si(ti)} Do, Everything and Nothing connect, do and Do. The path down is Do [Everything], si/ti, la, sol, fa, me, re, Do-[Nothing], a descending octave, then back up (transcendence) do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si/ti Do, an ascending octave. Of course this is also Ouroboros. Moving downward, the Noetic circle would include two higher centers, the Higher Intellectual Center and the Higher Emotional Center, but we presently have no means to connect with them (it's basically as-if they don't exist). It's possible to have a temporary connection with the Higher Intellectual Center (it's just a name), a rare occurrence. This would be Big Mind in Buddhism, or generally, CC (in Burke's sense of CC), it's an obliterated glimpse. Nice. Those are my first thoughts. So, you hate your self for being some loathsome, delusional 'non-dualist'?  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 24, 2023 12:03:07 GMT -5
Yes, very much so. The left side, emanation, basically would equal involution, the outward path, the right side transcendence would roughly mean {conscious} evolution, the return path. The Noetic circle would be an empty category, moving downward. It is *~filled in~* in the movement back upward. The top, the Absolute would be Everything. The bottom would be Nothing. But as in an octave, do, re, me, fa, sol, la {si(ti)} Do, Everything and Nothing connect, do and Do. The path down is Do [Everything], si/ti, la, sol, fa, me, re, Do-[Nothing], a descending octave, then back up (transcendence) do, re, mi, fa, sol, la, si/ti Do, an ascending octave. Of course this is also Ouroboros. Moving downward, the Noetic circle would include two higher centers, the Higher Intellectual Center and the Higher Emotional Center, but we presently have no means to connect with them (it's basically as-if they don't exist). It's possible to have a temporary connection with the Higher Intellectual Center (it's just a name), a rare occurrence. This would be Big Mind in Buddhism, or generally, CC (in Burke's sense of CC), it's an obliterated glimpse. Nice. Those are my first thoughts. So, you hate your self for being some loathsome, delusional 'non-dualist'? No. [  ]  It's complicated. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 24, 2023 12:06:31 GMT -5
So, you hate your self for being some loathsome, delusional 'non-dualist'? No. [ ] It's complicated. |
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.. I've never had a full-blown optical field dissolution or sudden and dramatic change of scenery, although I've read about them and have been close to two people who had that happen but it was considered a pathology. But I have experienced a few sudden ** shifts ** that would be very difficult to describe, and came with various energy-release and informings of mind. Perception can be a rather curious thing. 
.. jest take it with a pound 'o salt. One thing I notice that almost always happens if I get into an interval of meditating frequently and for time (which for me isn't very long, like 20 min) is .. synchronicity. It's like Buzz Lightyear whispering in my ear .. "coincidences! coincidences ... EVERYWHERE!". But, of course, that's not the only "siddi" I've had happen. 
If you truly have no self, then you know what your chief feature used-to-be, that's inevitable.
] 