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Post by zendancer on Dec 2, 2022 11:48:16 GMT -5
I'm throwing this out there for discussion, but I wonder if it would be worth distinguishing between the kind of effortless flow that occurs after SR and what might be called "deep flow?" Ramana once told a seeker, "Nirvikalpa samadhi is the deepest state but sahaja samadhi is the highest state." I pondered that statement for many months until Satch posted another quote from Ramana that seemed to suggest that sahaja samadhi was equivalent to what I was calling "flow." In this sense sahaja samadhi is a permanent state of flow versus intermittent states of flow/samadhi that most people fall into on a regular basis. The brick-laying guy is a good example of intermittent flow. He would lose himself in his work, and the sense of selfhood would only return after he finished work for the day and he started reflecting about what he had done. This kind of intermittent flow/samadhi is something most adults have a reference for, and the only reason the flow isn't permanent is because self-reflection along with the sense of being a SVP returns after one's focus or concentration on a particular activity ceases.
However, Ramana also referred to "nirvikalpa sahaja samadhi" when talking with seekers, and I wonder if he used that term to point to something slightly deeper than sahaja samadhi that might be distinguished as "deep flow?"
When Eckhart Tolle woke up the morning after falling into what he called "a vortex" (triggered by his suicidal despair and sudden thought that there couldn't be two of him), he woke up to a completely different world that some people have called "a living presence" and that some people have called "heaven on earth." He did not know what had happened to him, but he later realized that 80% of his thinking had ceased. During the next year or two he sat on a park bench in a state of bliss and people were automatically attracted to him. The same kind of thing happened to Satyam Nadeen, Helen Courtois, Bernadette Roberts, Ramana, and many other people. It appears to be a state that is quite common after big CC's. I have a reference for that state even though it only lasted for three days before the mind got cranked up again and self-referential thoughts returned.
What characterizes that state? First, the ordinary sense of selfhood has vanished. Second, there is almost no reflective thought. Third, there is a kind of current, as if one got plugged into some unseen electrical circuit. Fourth, other people can feel or sense something that attracts them to the one who is in that state--almost like a magnetic field. Fifth, one lives totally in the moment with no thought of past or future. Sixth, there is no desire for anything to be different than it is and no self concern at all. Ms. Courtois wrote that even her vision changed, and there are other strange phenomena that other people have written about.
Ramana is one of the few people who seemed to remain in that state of deep flow for the rest of his life, but that may be because he had spent years sitting in nirvikalpa samadhi. I assume that when Ramana subsequently talked about "killing the mind," he was pointing to a way of being in which the mind is substantially quiescent, and that may be necessary for remaining in a state of deep flow.
While thinking about this issue, I remembered that after ZM Seung Sahn was discharged from the Korean military (in which he had been a chaplain), he went to see Ko Bong, the ZM who had initially sanctioned his enlightenment. Ko Bong looked at ZMSS and said, "You have Army eyes; go spend a year in silence."
I'm curious whether anyone else thinks that a distinction between flow and deep-flow might be pointing to something significant? It may only be a pointer to what happens when the mind becomes extremely silent rather than relatively silent. Thoughts?
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Post by laughter on Dec 3, 2022 0:49:10 GMT -5
The way I described my experience in '09 a few months after it started to fade was of the same feeling I'd get from a day out on the slopes or a day up at the lake, but that it was persistent and uncaused. The most salient aspect of it was the absence of self-referential thought and emotion, and the word bliss is quite apt. It never faded completely, and there's a sort of a psychic/physiological bookmark there. Mind became informed soon after that this is what I had been chasing out on the slopes, and by other means.
The "current" is something I'd plugged into long before the sudden vanishing act, and I didn't attract any throngs but it did save my marriage. As far as living in the moment, I still had work to do day-to-day, but not getting caught up in the narratives of my clients made it far easier to do that work. So this brings me to a point of caution in my self-comparison, because anyone having a similar experience is going to be on their own arc, and what realizations come along for the ride seem (from what I've read of others, like you) to vary considerably. "Desiring things to be other than they are", in relative terms, can be a matter of degree, and mitigated quite successfully by any given people-peep in various ways, some along the lines of healthy human adulthood, others not. So the differential between that state before and after realizing the false sense of misconceived identity can be attenuated in relative terms, but as mind becomes informed, it's clear that the existential chasm is only bridged by grace.
In short I'd say that deep flow as you've described it is yes, very distinguishable from relative flow, and I honestly can't imagine it happening free of a significant existential realization, but I wouldn't necessarily try to buttonhole that realization, conceptually, and would expect potential wide variation in the reports.
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Post by inavalan on Dec 3, 2022 2:01:40 GMT -5
I'm throwing this out there for discussion, but I wonder if it would be worth distinguishing between the kind of effortless flow that occurs after SR and what might be called "deep flow?" Ramana once told a seeker, " Nirvikalpa samadhi is the deepest state but sahaja samadhi is the highest state." ... I'm curious whether anyone else thinks that a distinction between flow and deep-flow might be pointing to something significant? It may only be a pointer to what happens when the mind becomes extremely silent rather than relatively silent. Thoughts? I can relate to your Ramana quote.. I get into a hypnotic trance for my psychic experiences that involve working with my subconscious. Trance is a multi-dimensional state, and not only light, medium, deep, as generally thought. It is a way of focusing on a narrower range of perception, tuning in, bypassing of the critical-factor, selective thinking. I ask my subconscious to optimize my trance for most mundane or psychic experiences I intend having: reading, working-out, driving, ..., but also regressions, psychic sensing, tapping into guidance and knowledge, healing, ... There is also an " expanded awareness" state, that I feel to somehow be in the opposite "direction" of the hypnotic trance. In this state I feel I reach anywhere both in the physical-reality, and "wherever" I can " ascend" in the non-physical-reality, with the same ease. Anyway, hypnotic trance states go deeper, and expanded awareness states go higher / wider / further (not in physical terms). Both kinds are inner states, but hypnotic states feel to be from the perspective of leaving behind the "here", while the expanding awareness feel to be from the perspective of expanding "there". The former are toward and through the subconscious, the latter are after and past the subconscious. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2022 2:07:57 GMT -5
I'm throwing this out there for discussion, but I wonder if it would be worth distinguishing between the kind of effortless flow that occurs after SR and what might be called "deep flow?" Ramana once told a seeker, "Nirvikalpa samadhi is the deepest state but sahaja samadhi is the highest state." I pondered that statement for many months until Satch posted another quote from Ramana that seemed to suggest that sahaja samadhi was equivalent to what I was calling "flow." In this sense sahaja samadhi is a permanent state of flow versus intermittent states of flow/samadhi that most people fall into on a regular basis. The brick-laying guy is a good example of intermittent flow. He would lose himself in his work, and the sense of selfhood would only return after he finished work for the day and he started reflecting about what he had done. This kind of intermittent flow/samadhi is something most adults have a reference for, and the only reason the flow isn't permanent is because self-reflection along with the sense of being a SVP returns after one's focus or concentration on a particular activity ceases. However, Ramana also referred to "nirvikalpa sahaja samadhi" when talking with seekers, and I wonder if he used that term to point to something slightly deeper than sahaja samadhi that might be distinguished as "deep flow?" When Eckhart Tolle woke up the morning after falling into what he called "a vortex" (triggered by his suicidal despair and sudden thought that there couldn't be two of him), he woke up to a completely different world that some people have called "a living presence" and that some people have called "heaven on earth." He did not know what had happened to him, but he later realized that 80% of his thinking had ceased. During the next year or two he sat on a park bench in a state of bliss and people were automatically attracted to him. The same kind of thing happened to Satyam Nadeen, Helen Courtois, Bernadette Roberts, Ramana, and many other people. It appears to be a state that is quite common after big CC's. I have a reference for that state even though it only lasted for three days before the mind got cranked up again and self-referential thoughts returned. What characterizes that state? First, the ordinary sense of selfhood has vanished. Second, there is almost no reflective thought. Third, there is a kind of current, as if one got plugged into some unseen electrical circuit. Fourth, other people can feel or sense something that attracts them to the one who is in that state--almost like a magnetic field. Fifth, one lives totally in the moment with no thought of past or future. Sixth, there is no desire for anything to be different than it is and no self concern at all. Ms. Courtois wrote that even her vision changed, and there are other strange phenomena that other people have written about. Ramana is one of the few people who seemed to remain in that state of deep flow for the rest of his life, but that may be because he had spent years sitting in nirvikalpa samadhi. I assume that when Ramana subsequently talked about "killing the mind," he was pointing to a way of being in which the mind is substantially quiescent, and that may be necessary for remaining in a state of deep flow. While thinking about this issue, I remembered that after ZM Seung Sahn was discharged from the Korean military (in which he had been a chaplain), he went to see Ko Bong, the ZM who had initially sanctioned his enlightenment. Ko Bong looked at ZMSS and said, "You have Army eyes; go spend a year in silence." I'm curious whether anyone else thinks that a distinction between flow and deep-flow might be pointing to something significant? It may only be a pointer to what happens when the mind becomes extremely silent rather than relatively silent. Thoughts? Universe always creates something new! Natural flow includes that creation. You always find yourself creating something new, it could be a new building, or it could be a new software. It always wants to create something new. If you find yourself creating something new, then you are perfectly in the flow. You will find a joy while you are creating. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 3, 2022 4:12:49 GMT -5
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Post by zendancer on Dec 3, 2022 5:03:13 GMT -5
The way I described my experience in '09 a few months after it started to fade was of the same feeling I'd get from a day out on the slopes or a day up at the lake, but that it was persistent and uncaused. The most salient aspect of it was the absence of self-referential thought and emotion, and the word bliss is quite apt. It never faded completely, and there's a sort of a psychic/physiological bookmark there. Mind became informed soon after that this is what I had been chasing out on the slopes, and by other means. The "current" is something I'd plugged into long before the sudden vanishing act, and I didn't attract any throngs but it did save my marriage. As far as living in the moment, I still had work to do day-to-day, but not getting caught up in the narratives of my clients made it far easier to do that work. So this brings me to a point of caution in my self-comparison, because anyone having a similar experience is going to be on their own arc, and what realizations come along for the ride seem (from what I've read of others, like you) to vary considerably. "Desiring things to be other than they are", in relative terms, can be a matter of degree, and mitigated quite successfully by any given people-peep in various ways, some along the lines of healthy human adulthood, others not. So the differential between that state before and after realizing the false sense of misconceived identity can be attenuated in relative terms, but as mind becomes informed, it's clear that the existential chasm is only bridged by grace. In short I'd say that deep flow as you've described it is yes, very distinguishable from relative flow, and I honestly can't imagine it happening free of a significant existential realization, but I wouldn't necessarily try to buttonhole that realization, conceptually, and would expect potential wide variation in the reports.Yes, that seems to be the case. In every description of deep flow that I've read about it occurs after a CC or significant realization, and the duration varies with the individual from several days to several years. In some rare cases, such as Ramana and perhaps the Buddha, it was apparently permanent. Like you, I had a demanding small business to operate (with ten employees and multiple construction projects) when that happened, so sitting on a park bench doing nothing for two years or more was not in the cards.  My marriage was saved by the "pouring concrete realization" that occurred several years later. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 3, 2022 5:06:36 GMT -5
Thanks. I had recently looked for that quote but had been unable to find it. |
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Post by shadowplay on Dec 3, 2022 8:31:01 GMT -5
I'm curious whether anyone else thinks that a distinction between flow and deep-flow might be pointing to something significant? It may only be a pointer to what happens when the mind becomes extremely silent rather than relatively silent. Thoughts? In a typical day I can recognise three prominent states. I’m a musician, if sit and play the piano for an hour, as with your task oriented builder, self-referencing ceases and thought takes a back seat. Then there’s the ordinary waking-dream state of drifting into reflection. Thirdly, there is the realisation of the happening of the moment - which is a state of present flow or unfolding. The difference between the first and third state is present yet absorbed as opposed to present and open. There is a less frequent fourth state. It’s a deeper version of present flow and coincides with your description of deep flow. It has followed kensho events and other ‘breakthroughs’ and significant insights. But it doesn’t stick around. After a while the intensity of this state fades and it becomes the more everyday ‘happening of the moment’ state. I tend to think of it as more of a spiritual lollipop rather than something that would be feasibly ongoing - and I’m not interested in chasing it. But maybe it sticks around for some - I should imagine that it is rare. I think you may be onto something with your ‘extremely silent’ and ‘relatively silent’ analysis. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 3, 2022 14:28:25 GMT -5
I'm throwing this out there. Thoughts? The difficulty in approaching the exploration you have put forth is that it seems like the discussion is actually to agree upon what the different samadhi states refer to in comparison with flow and deep flow. I do not have a running definition of the samadhi states, but it does seem you’ve shared them before. I’ll search back sometime, or maybe someone can point me to a link to them. It seems that either one of the states is always immediately available and/or explorable via meditation, where the subtle engagements with mind-body are more recognizably nuanced. But, in general, it seems that in either of those deeper states and/or shortly thereafter, one is prone to what are called siddhis. The instances of “no reflective thought”, “unseen electrical circuit”, “magnetic field”, “in the moment with no thought of past or future”, “no desire for anything to be different than it is and no self concern at all”, and other strange phenomena purddy much all refer to the 20 some odd number of these siddhis that Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras describes. All of them were broken down into three main categories: types of clairvoyance, types of psychokinesis, and types of mind-body control. At the same time, even though there’s a certain science to how they are nurtured and/or applied, he also warns against the pursuit of these siddhis at the expense of realizing Self (he stated as the most important, and I’d agree), because they typically would reinforce the sense of a separate self due to the pride, arrogance, and inflated ego. I had heard some version of this caution in different conversations while doing me own walkabout through the universe and, for whatever reason, took it to heart. I can identify 4-5-6 of the siddhis did show up for me, and I might even use them as tools on occasion, but not for egotistical purposes, which would be somewhat divisive of flow in how I regard it. With respect to flow and deeper flow, I suppose they refer to how much one is aware of and in conscious command of the context at hand and/or any sense of self that may or may not be lingering (brick layer versus some revered teacher). The different teachers mentioned were operating within a context of being possessors of some otherworldly knowledge that others were seeking, many of which were in a receptive mode for what they were expressing. In such a situation, the seekers had chosen to be there, to be open to the message, and to sometimes pay homage in the form of service or money to the community that formed around said teacher, for better or worse. In such a situation, the teacher would not really be all that challenged by context as long as their message and means of teaching resonated with the group. I think that makes sense. As such, one’s state of flow would likely depend on the context, which can grow exceptionally complex, depending on any number of factors. In some of them, it might require one to more heavily rely on mind (knowledge, memory, intuition, etc) to make certain adaptations to nurture one’s flow; whereas in others, it might be better to approach it from a deeper degree of emptiness, coming naked to the endeavor, tapping into an informative silence (nice one, Laffy). A meditative context can be a nice form of purposefully tapping into such an informative deeper flow, but there are occasions that arise when consciously sensing a similar flow in an almost dreamlike way in ordinary actions of life, though relatively less ‘deep’ due to the demands of the context. I assume it would be similar for even the greatest of teachers, depending on their familiarity with the context. But again, I’m not sure how the deep flow/samahdi is being defined. In my experience, it is nice to have a clearer understanding of the experiential mind and its limitations AND an appreciation for the vastness prior to it/them, which is why honesty and the potential for SR might be considered of higher value. Having the immediately available option of starting from a place of existential gratitude, nakedness, and fearlessness is always nice. Maybe, just maybe, I haven’t babbled to much for ya. Maybe I can follow up with something a little more on target if this doesn’t add any value. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 3, 2022 15:52:02 GMT -5
I'm throwing this out there. Thoughts? The difficulty in approaching the exploration you have put forth is that it seems like the discussion is actually to agree upon what the different samadhi states refer to in comparison with flow and deep flow. I do not have a running definition of the samadhi states, but it does seem you’ve shared them before. I’ll search back sometime, or maybe someone can point me to a link to them. It seems that either one of the states is always immediately available and/or explorable via meditation, where the subtle engagements with mind-body are more recognizably nuanced. But, in general, it seems that in either of those deeper states and/or shortly thereafter, one is prone to what are called siddhis. The instances of “no reflective thought”, “unseen electrical circuit”, “magnetic field”, “in the moment with no thought of past or future”, “no desire for anything to be different than it is and no self concern at all”, and other strange phenomena purddy much all refer to the 20 some odd number of these siddhis that Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras describes. All of them were broken down into three main categories: types of clairvoyance, types of psychokinesis, and types of mind-body control. At the same time, even though there’s a certain science to how they are nurtured and/or applied, he also warns against the pursuit of these siddhis at the expense of realizing Self (he stated as the most important, and I’d agree), because they typically would reinforce the sense of a separate self due to the pride, arrogance, and inflated ego. I had heard some version of this caution in different conversations while doing me own walkabout through the universe and, for whatever reason, took it to heart. I can identify 4-5-6 of the siddhis did show up for me, and I might even use them as tools on occasion, but not for egotistical purposes, which would be somewhat divisive of flow in how I regard it. With respect to flow and deeper flow, I suppose they refer to how much one is aware of and in conscious command of the context at hand and/or any sense of self that may or may not be lingering (brick layer versus some revered teacher). The different teachers mentioned were operating within a context of being possessors of some otherworldly knowledge that others were seeking, many of which were in a receptive mode for what they were expressing. In such a situation, the seekers had chosen to be there, to be open to the message, and to sometimes pay homage in the form of service or money to the community that formed around said teacher, for better or worse. In such a situation, the teacher would not really be all that challenged by context as long as their message and means of teaching resonated with the group. I think that makes sense. As such, one’s state of flow would likely depend on the context, which can grow exceptionally complex, depending on any number of factors. In some of them, it might require one to more heavily rely on mind (knowledge, memory, intuition, etc) to make certain adaptations to nurture one’s flow; whereas in others, it might be better to approach it from a deeper degree of emptiness, coming naked to the endeavor, tapping into an informative silence (nice one, Laffy). A meditative context can be a nice form of purposefully tapping into such an informative deeper flow, but there are occasions that arise when consciously sensing a similar flow in an almost dreamlike way in ordinary actions of life, though relatively less ‘deep’ due to the demands of the context. I assume it would be similar for even the greatest of teachers, depending on their familiarity with the context. But again, I’m not sure how the deep flow/samahdi is being defined. In my experience, it is nice to have a clearer understanding of the experiential mind and its limitations AND an appreciation for the vastness prior to it/them, which is why honesty and the potential for SR might be considered of higher value. Having the immediately available option of starting from a place of existential gratitude, nakedness, and fearlessness is always nice. Maybe, just maybe, I haven’t babbled to much for ya. Maybe I can follow up with something a little more on target if this doesn’t add any value. Your babbling is always appreciated! My post was prompted by a discussion with someone who objected to a comment I made that was pointing to what I considered a "distinguishable difference" between the effortless state of flow following SR and what I remembered as a somewhat "deeper" state of flow immediately following a CC. His response could be summarized as, "There is nothing deeper than THIS." I agree with his response 100%, but ATST I suspect that the reported statement of Jesus in the NT, "In my Father's house are many mansions," may have been pointing to what I was pointing to. As one example, some people wake up from the consensus paradigm and never directly apprehend/encounter what the word "God" points to whereas other people do. What they apprehend cannot be captured in words, but "a shining effulgent darkness" (written by a Christian mystic) is one way someone attempted to point to it. THIS unfolds however it unfolds, but different human manifestations of THIS have widely varying experiences and realizations in the process of that unfolding. I hesitated to use the word "deep flow" because it implies that deep is better than "ordinary everyday flow," but I couldn't think of any words that accurately apply to what I was attempting to point to. I haven't read much about siddhis, and I would certainly not suggest that anyone chase after special experiences, powers, CC's, etc because such chasing would be a movement in the wrong direction and would enhance the sense of being a SVP seeking to go from point A to point B (when most of us would probably agree that there is no point B). I simply noticed in the spiritual literature that many people have written about distinct kinds of phenomena following kensho events that seemed noteworthy. I have also personally met many sages/teachers/whateverwewanttocallgthem who seemed extraordinarily clear following a powerful kensho event and attracted lots of followers who later fell back into the mind, got attached to various questionable ideas, and lost all of their followers. Initially they were "in the current" to use Ramana's words, but later they seemed to have lost that connection to Source. Various Advaita sages have a fairly agreed-upon list of definitions regarding different forms of samadhi, and I have a reference for most of them, but one or two of them make me wonder exactly what's being pointed to. For example, what's the difference between sahaja samadhi and sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi? I use the phrase "everyday samadhi" to refer to the state of flow represented by the brick-laying guy. Artists and musicians, particularly, seem aware that when they get totally involved in their artwork, time, space, and selfhood disappear altogether for a while even if they know nothing about deeper meditative states of samadhi, such as nirvikalpa. "Being in the zone," for certain people, such as mountain climbers, is a state of unity consciousness that is often regarded as mystical in retrospect because they were able to do things that were seemingly impossible. As one mountain climber stated with considerable awe after summiting a sheer wall, "Something else took over and climbed that rock face because it was far beyond my capability. If THAT had not taken over, I would have peeled off the face and fallen to my death because I had reached a point in my free climb where I couldn't move in any direction and had no idea how I could save myself." That may not be an exact quote, but it's pretty close. AAR, flow is an interesting topic and one that perhaps other people can provide additional insights about. |
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Post by inavalan on Dec 3, 2022 16:36:03 GMT -5
The difficulty in approaching the exploration you have put forth is that it seems like the discussion is actually to agree upon what the different samadhi states refer to in comparison with flow and deep flow. I do not have a running definition of the samadhi states, but it does seem you’ve shared them before. I’ll search back sometime, or maybe someone can point me to a link to them.... Your babbling is always appreciated! My post was prompted by a discussion with someone who objected to a comment I made that was pointing to what I considered a "distinguishable difference" between the effortless state of flow following SR and what I remembered as a somewhat "deeper" state of flow immediately following a CC. ... Have you experienced "lucid dreaming", "astral projection", "out-of-body-experience", "age regression", "life-between-lives regression", or other projections of awareness in the physical or non-physical? |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 3, 2022 18:03:57 GMT -5
Your babbling is always appreciated! My post was prompted by a discussion with someone who objected to a comment I made that was pointing to what I considered a "distinguishable difference" between the effortless state of flow following SR and what I remembered as a somewhat "deeper" state of flow immediately following a CC. ... Have you experienced "lucid dreaming", "astral projection", "out-of-body-experience", "age regression", "life-between-lives regression", or other projections of awareness in the physical or non-physical? I know what it's like to have an OOBE because that occurred during a CC (awareness seemed to be looking from a point that was above and in front of the body's head for several moments), but none of the rest. I've read accounts about astral projection, and several people on this forum have written about their experiences of lucid dreaming, but those things are simply not in my wheelhouse.  |
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Post by laughter on Dec 3, 2022 20:34:55 GMT -5
The way I described my experience in '09 a few months after it started to fade was of the same feeling I'd get from a day out on the slopes or a day up at the lake, but that it was persistent and uncaused. The most salient aspect of it was the absence of self-referential thought and emotion, and the word bliss is quite apt. It never faded completely, and there's a sort of a psychic/physiological bookmark there. Mind became informed soon after that this is what I had been chasing out on the slopes, and by other means. The "current" is something I'd plugged into long before the sudden vanishing act, and I didn't attract any throngs but it did save my marriage. As far as living in the moment, I still had work to do day-to-day, but not getting caught up in the narratives of my clients made it far easier to do that work. So this brings me to a point of caution in my self-comparison, because anyone having a similar experience is going to be on their own arc, and what realizations come along for the ride seem (from what I've read of others, like you) to vary considerably. "Desiring things to be other than they are", in relative terms, can be a matter of degree, and mitigated quite successfully by any given people-peep in various ways, some along the lines of healthy human adulthood, others not. So the differential between that state before and after realizing the false sense of misconceived identity can be attenuated in relative terms, but as mind becomes informed, it's clear that the existential chasm is only bridged by grace. In short I'd say that deep flow as you've described it is yes, very distinguishable from relative flow, and I honestly can't imagine it happening free of a significant existential realization, but I wouldn't necessarily try to buttonhole that realization, conceptually, and would expect potential wide variation in the reports.Yes, that seems to be the case. In every description of deep flow that I've read about it occurs after a CC or significant realization, and the duration varies with the individual from several days to several years. In some rare cases, such as Ramana and perhaps the Buddha, it was apparently permanent. Like you, I had a demanding small business to operate (with ten employees and multiple construction projects) when that happened, so sitting on a park bench doing nothing for two years or more was not in the cards. My marriage was saved by the "pouring concrete realization" that occurred several years later. Ah, that clicks the story for sure, and I can't imagine wanting to give away the company to the employees was good for marital bliss either. |
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Post by zendancer on Dec 4, 2022 8:19:02 GMT -5
Yes, that seems to be the case. In every description of deep flow that I've read about it occurs after a CC or significant realization, and the duration varies with the individual from several days to several years. In some rare cases, such as Ramana and perhaps the Buddha, it was apparently permanent. Like you, I had a demanding small business to operate (with ten employees and multiple construction projects) when that happened, so sitting on a park bench doing nothing for two years or more was not in the cards. My marriage was saved by the "pouring concrete realization" that occurred several years later. Ah, that clicks the story for sure, and I can't imagine wanting to give away the company to the employees was good for marital bliss either. That and wanting to give away our house as well! It was a rather severe threat to any sense of security |
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Post by Reefs on Dec 4, 2022 9:33:43 GMT -5
I'm throwing this out there for discussion, but I wonder if it would be worth distinguishing between the kind of effortless flow that occurs after SR and what might be called "deep flow?" Ramana once told a seeker, "Nirvikalpa samadhi is the deepest state but sahaja samadhi is the highest state." I pondered that statement for many months until Satch posted another quote from Ramana that seemed to suggest that sahaja samadhi was equivalent to what I was calling "flow." In this sense sahaja samadhi is a permanent state of flow versus intermittent states of flow/samadhi that most people fall into on a regular basis. The brick-laying guy is a good example of intermittent flow. He would lose himself in his work, and the sense of selfhood would only return after he finished work for the day and he started reflecting about what he had done. This kind of intermittent flow/samadhi is something most adults have a reference for, and the only reason the flow isn't permanent is because self-reflection along with the sense of being a SVP returns after one's focus or concentration on a particular activity ceases. However, Ramana also referred to "nirvikalpa sahaja samadhi" when talking with seekers, and I wonder if he used that term to point to something slightly deeper than sahaja samadhi that might be distinguished as "deep flow?" When Eckhart Tolle woke up the morning after falling into what he called "a vortex" (triggered by his suicidal despair and sudden thought that there couldn't be two of him), he woke up to a completely different world that some people have called "a living presence" and that some people have called "heaven on earth." He did not know what had happened to him, but he later realized that 80% of his thinking had ceased. During the next year or two he sat on a park bench in a state of bliss and people were automatically attracted to him. The same kind of thing happened to Satyam Nadeen, Helen Courtois, Bernadette Roberts, Ramana, and many other people. It appears to be a state that is quite common after big CC's. I have a reference for that state even though it only lasted for three days before the mind got cranked up again and self-referential thoughts returned. What characterizes that state? First, the ordinary sense of selfhood has vanished. Second, there is almost no reflective thought. Third, there is a kind of current, as if one got plugged into some unseen electrical circuit. Fourth, other people can feel or sense something that attracts them to the one who is in that state--almost like a magnetic field. Fifth, one lives totally in the moment with no thought of past or future. Sixth, there is no desire for anything to be different than it is and no self concern at all. Ms. Courtois wrote that even her vision changed, and there are other strange phenomena that other people have written about. Ramana is one of the few people who seemed to remain in that state of deep flow for the rest of his life, but that may be because he had spent years sitting in nirvikalpa samadhi. I assume that when Ramana subsequently talked about "killing the mind," he was pointing to a way of being in which the mind is substantially quiescent, and that may be necessary for remaining in a state of deep flow. While thinking about this issue, I remembered that after ZM Seung Sahn was discharged from the Korean military (in which he had been a chaplain), he went to see Ko Bong, the ZM who had initially sanctioned his enlightenment. Ko Bong looked at ZMSS and said, "You have Army eyes; go spend a year in silence." I'm curious whether anyone else thinks that a distinction between flow and deep-flow might be pointing to something significant? It may only be a pointer to what happens when the mind becomes extremely silent rather than relatively silent. Thoughts? I think it's a necessary distinction. In fact, I've been making that distinction for a while now, but mostly when I talk about alignment (which is almost synonymous with flow). The reason for this is how the flow state was originally defined in psychological research. This goes back to Csikszentmihalyi who studied creative people and the psychology of happiness in the 1970s. He discovered that when people were engaged in an activity and when the challenge and their skill level matched, they entered a state of mind that let them get fully immersed in their activity, their performance was at a peak level and they experienced an unusual state of deep satisfaction and happiness. The activity itself was so intrinsically rewarding, that these people didn't even care about the results of their work. The activity itself became the main event, not the end result. So painters would get totally lost in the process of painting and when their painting was finished, they lost interest in it and put it in their garage or somewhere where they didn't have to look at it anymore. So for this kind of flow to occur, there are very specific requirements. Essentially it depends on focus. Which makes it conditional. Which also means it can be created at will with some practice. Now, the other kind of flow, deep flow, I would call unconditional because it doesn't depend on focus or skill level, it doesn't even require engagement in an activity. It just happens. And it cannot be created at will. I usually refer to this as deep alignment, it's essentially seeing the world thru the eyes of Source, the impersonal perspective, the natural state. The other kind of alignment or intermittent flow is only a glimpse of the natural state, but not actually the impersonal perspective. So the difference between these two states is actually huge. Satyam Nadeen is an interesting case. I met him once some 20 years ago. When it happened to him, he was actually in prison. He suffered greatly because of the conditions there. But then one day he suddenly was in a state of bliss, like Tolle on his park bench. Satyam on his prison bench. But the surroundings suddenly didn't matter at all anymore. There was only THIS - consciousness, bliss. Another interesting story comes from UG, who regularly had been followed by wild animals on his walks in nature. So this certainly speaks for the attractiveness of this kind of deep alignment, the natural state. It's what everybody wants, essentially. Another story I heard about Anandamayi Ma. She used to give talks but apparently had no idea what she was talking about while she was talking. She often was surprised afterwards at the things she said and how funny it all was what she said. After meeting with hundreds of followers daily, she used to look somewhat used up, very tired, old and frail. She then would retreat and sit in meditation for a few hours. And when she came back, she was so radiant and full of energy that people often couldn't stand her gaze and had to cover their eyes. So hearing such stories, it makes sense when A-H say that one in alignment is more powerful than millions who are not. |
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My marriage was saved by the "pouring concrete realization" that occurred several years later.
