|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 19, 2022 16:59:09 GMT -5
Right, and it appears that each major school of Vedanta also has their own nuances to the terminology, even shtiti. I suppose that the meanings adopted are indicative of what resonates with or is intended by the user (speakers/listeners) at the time, so yeah, can get messy. ..🎯..That's a good reference book. To me, to figure these out, the best way is to use something as a basis, a conduit for your tapping of your intuition and inner guidance. That something has to be something that doesn't already distort the knowledge you quest for. An asparagus bunch is a less misleading basis, conduit than any sage or dogma. In this respect, I value more a Sanskrit dictionary than I value a guru's interpretation of a term, both when they put in words their own beliefs, and when they try to interpret others'. You don't try to intellectually understand the meaning of a word, or phrase, but you treat it as a symbol for a concept. Every symbol can be interpreted on multiple levels, deeper and deeper (or higher and higher  ), depending on where the seeker is situated on his infinite quest. For example, you can't fully trust anybody to interpret Ramana, and also you can't fully trust Ramana's interpretation of "the" truth. An asparagus bunch is likely to get you closer if you aren't arrogant, nor stubborn. ====== EDIT: This applies to forums too. Bouncing your beliefs of others is more helpful than arguing the merits of your beliefs, or theirs. From this perspective, those who just parrot a single belief are less helpful than those who can answer more nuanced. It is like bouncing your ball from a smooth wall, vs. bouncing it from a rugged one; dogma vs. asparagus bunch. Yeah, you've basically described why I just headed into the mountains and worked toward boiling things down to the simples, hehe. I was never really into gurus and the like, even had an intrinsic distrust of them for the most part. I just carried a fervent curiosity about what was actually true along with an insatiable desire to be free of whatever layers of bondage I had accumulated and wrapped myself in. I was never really into accumulating ideas. When something rang sensible, I carried it for a while, until it was thrown to the dung heap. All good. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 19, 2022 17:07:49 GMT -5
Nice. Indeed, if IT ain't right HERE, right NOW, it ain't IT. And if it ain't, it's OK, if it is what it is and there's a maturing openness to understanding how the mind makes the boundaries. Even that realization can be a decent pinch in a dream. As I think I've already shared, I told my wife if we had met 1-2-3 years before, I assume she would have walked right on by, maybe have run.  That bad, eh? ** imagines SN in disheveled sadhu outfit ** Nah, I wore comfortable cottons (baggy pajama-like pants/shirt and lungies) in the cities/villages when there, but mostly minimally geared up for treks/camping. It was more about the intensity with which I was on the move and/or some less-than-desirable habits she might have frowned upon. She had been living with her missionary sister/brother-in-law family in Uzbekistan when we met, and I was still coming to terms with the implosion. She was never really a good Christian, but the conditioned responses were there. Good thing she loved nature, trekking, art, and simple living more, so it has been a wonderful dance since we met, though not without its bumps. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 19, 2022 17:09:18 GMT -5
Your babbling is always appreciated! My post was prompted by a discussion with someone who objected to a comment I made that was pointing to what I considered a "distinguishable difference" between the effortless state of flow following SR and what I remembered as a somewhat "deeper" state of flow immediately following a CC. His response could be summarized as, "There is nothing deeper than THIS." I agree with his response 100%, but ATST I suspect that the reported statement of Jesus in the NT, "In my Father's house are many mansions," may have been pointing to what I was pointing to. As one example, some people wake up from the consensus paradigm and never directly apprehend/encounter what the word "God" points to whereas other people do. What they apprehend cannot be captured in words, but "a shining effulgent darkness" (written by a Christian mystic) is one way someone attempted to point to it. THIS unfolds however it unfolds, but different human manifestations of THIS have widely varying experiences and realizations in the process of that unfolding. I hesitated to use the word "deep flow" because it implies that deep is better than "ordinary everyday flow," but I couldn't think of any words that accurately apply to what I was attempting to point to. I haven't read much about siddhis, and I would certainly not suggest that anyone chase after special experiences, powers, CC's, etc because such chasing would be a movement in the wrong direction and would enhance the sense of being a SVP seeking to go from point A to point B (when most of us would probably agree that there is no point B). I simply noticed in the spiritual literature that many people have written about distinct kinds of phenomena following kensho events that seemed noteworthy. I have also personally met many sages/teachers/whateverwewanttocallgthem who seemed extraordinarily clear following a powerful kensho event and attracted lots of followers who later fell back into the mind, got attached to various questionable ideas, and lost all of their followers. Initially they were "in the current" to use Ramana's words, but later they seemed to have lost that connection to Source. Various Advaita sages have a fairly agreed-upon list of definitions regarding different forms of samadhi, and I have a reference for most of them, but one or two of them make me wonder exactly what's being pointed to. For example, what's the difference between sahaja samadhi and sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi? I use the phrase "everyday samadhi" to refer to the state of flow represented by the brick-laying guy. Artists and musicians, particularly, seem aware that when they get totally involved in their artwork, time, space, and selfhood disappear altogether for a while even if they know nothing about deeper meditative states of samadhi, such as nirvikalpa. "Being in the zone," for certain people, such as mountain climbers, is a state of unity consciousness that is often regarded as mystical in retrospect because they were able to do things that were seemingly impossible. As one mountain climber stated with considerable awe after summiting a sheer wall, "Something else took over and climbed that rock face because it was far beyond my capability. If THAT had not taken over, I would have peeled off the face and fallen to my death because I had reached a point in my free climb where I couldn't move in any direction and had no idea how I could save myself." That may not be an exact quote, but it's pretty close. AAR, flow is an interesting topic and one that perhaps other people can provide additional insights about. Re: siddhis, I think the whole point is that they are not special. They are our natural abilities, but we are unaware of it. But as with money, it can help make things easier but used unwisely, it can actually create more problems. You probably remember Papaji's story when he went into the woods to meet a famous yogi who could manifest his favorite dish out of thin air. And while Papaji was impressed and happy that he could eat his favorite food, he told the yogi that he was actually more interested in finding peace of mind than learning impressive skills. But the yogi said that he hadn't found that. And that was the end of the conversation for Papaji. Another interesting story I remember from Ram Dass, giving his guru some LSD: "If you are in a cool place and you are alone, and your mind is turned towards God and you feel much peace, it could be useful... [Your medicine] would allow you to have a darshan with Christ. But you can only stay for two hours. Then you have to leave.. [so] it would be better to become Christ than to visit him." Neemkaroli Baba was pretty open-minded, so yeah, the hippies liked him. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 19, 2022 17:15:39 GMT -5
At the same time, even though there’s a certain science to how they are nurtured and/or applied, he also warns against the pursuit of these siddhis at the expense of realizing Self (he stated as the most important, and I’d agree), because they typically would reinforce the sense of a separate self due to the pride, arrogance, and inflated ego. I'm open minded enough to perhaps consider experiences where there's still self-referential "thought" to be this "deep flow", but this is certainly a significant conceptual distinction. As I like to joke with zd: it's one of those "ya' kinda' not have to have been there" thingies ... 'Tis my interpretation of the cosmic dance intermingled with breaks for telling some cosmic jokes. Always nice to find folks that take it in stride, though I have sometimes found my cosmic satire to fall on deafened angry ears.  |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 19, 2022 17:25:01 GMT -5
The instances of “no reflective thought”, “unseen electrical circuit”, “magnetic field”, .. oh and meant to mention .. the tingly thing is something anyone anywhere anytime can perceive if they just pay attention to it. ... the underlying connection of that to a profound sense of joy, well maybe that's a little harder for some folks at some times .... dunno' ... Yeah, the stuff that bubbles up on its own is the cooler stuff if one is attuned to it and can let go of any desire to control or cajole it. I've never looked into the hows and whys of siddhis, but the memories of them are unique. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 19, 2022 17:27:04 GMT -5
 That's purddy funny! Turtles all the way down! Persist.  not here nor there nor anywhere yet up and down and all around not good nor bad not high not low yet all you ever need to know in the silence there you'll feel the thingless thing the only real smile at the subtle grace no distance to this placeless place 🪔 |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 19, 2022 17:33:44 GMT -5
Right, and it appears that each major school of Vedanta also has their own nuances to the terminology, even shtiti. I suppose that the meanings adopted are indicative of what resonates with or is intended by the user (speakers/listeners) at the time, so yeah, can get messy. ..🎯..That's a good reference book. It's an excellent book. It gives you a solid foundation on Advaita philosophy, its logic and terminology. Lots of good quotes from other teachers in there, too. Yep, it seems I dropped a link to it in here at one time. Exhaustive in all details. It's been a while since I poked around in it. Lots of other interests these days before the real cold weather sets in. |
|
|
|
Post by Reefs on Dec 19, 2022 21:22:23 GMT -5
It's an excellent book. It gives you a solid foundation on Advaita philosophy, its logic and terminology. Lots of good quotes from other teachers in there, too. Yep, it seems I dropped a link to it in here at one time. Exhaustive in all details. It's been a while since I poked around in it. Lots of other interests these days before the real cold weather sets in. Waite does have a beef with neo-advaita though. I think the purpose of the book was to flesh out the exact differences between traditional advaita and neo-advaita. Hence the title. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 19, 2022 21:35:49 GMT -5
Yep, it seems I dropped a link to it in here at one time. Exhaustive in all details. It's been a while since I poked around in it. Lots of other interests these days before the real cold weather sets in. Waite does have a beef with neo-advaita though. I think the purpose of the book was to flesh out the exact differences between traditional advaita and neo-advaita. Hence the title. Yeah, the times they are a changing. Things/ideas/perceptions splinter. Oneness, not so much. |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Dec 20, 2022 19:22:08 GMT -5
I'm open minded enough to perhaps consider experiences where there's still self-referential "thought" to be this "deep flow", but this is certainly a significant conceptual distinction. As I like to joke with zd: it's one of those "ya' kinda' not have to have been there" thingies ... 'Tis my interpretation of the cosmic dance intermingled with breaks for telling some cosmic jokes. Always nice to find folks that take it in stride, though I have sometimes found my cosmic satire to fall on deafened angry ears.  |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Dec 20, 2022 19:23:08 GMT -5
.. oh and meant to mention .. the tingly thing is something anyone anywhere anytime can perceive if they just pay attention to it. ... the underlying connection of that to a profound sense of joy, well maybe that's a little harder for some folks at some times .... dunno' ... Yeah, the stuff that bubbles up on its own is the cooler stuff if one is attuned to it and can let go of any desire to control or cajole it. I've never looked into the hows and whys of siddhis, but the memories of them are unique. Attention getters no doubt, but I don't think of the body-hum that way. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 23, 2022 8:21:28 GMT -5
Yeah, the stuff that bubbles up on its own is the cooler stuff if one is attuned to it and can let go of any desire to control or cajole it. I've never looked into the hows and whys of siddhis, but the memories of them are unique. Attention getters no doubt, but I don't think of the body-hum that way. Yeah, it is more of a settling into what's actually HERE. The spontaneous black hole-like visualizations are kinda nice that way, too, though more active and creative. My favorite one's are sitting in the sunlight, going into a trance-like state and there's an almost cosmic swirl of 'blood platelet red' speckled stars against a darker red-blackish background with the deep black hole thingy in the middle. I consciously allow the sense to 'move into / back into' the black hole with the draws of breathing, and feel the sense of its immensity. That hum sometimes comes along for the ambiance. Pretty cool stuff. ⚫ |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Dec 23, 2022 11:39:31 GMT -5
Attention getters no doubt, but I don't think of the body-hum that way. Yeah, it is more of a settling into what's actually HERE. The spontaneous black hole-like visualizations are kinda nice that way, too, though more active and creative. My favorite one's are sitting in the sunlight, going into a trance-like state and there's an almost cosmic swirl of 'blood platelet red' speckled stars against a darker red-blackish background with the deep black hole thingy in the middle. I consciously allow the sense to 'move into / back into' the black hole with the draws of breathing, and feel the sense of its immensity. That hum sometimes comes along for the ambiance. Pretty cool stuff. ⚫ You mean with eyes closed? Yeah, and there can be a white hole, too. Fun stuff. |
|
|
|
Post by someNOTHING! on Dec 23, 2022 12:01:52 GMT -5
Yeah, it is more of a settling into what's actually HERE. The spontaneous black hole-like visualizations are kinda nice that way, too, though more active and creative. My favorite one's are sitting in the sunlight, going into a trance-like state and there's an almost cosmic swirl of 'blood platelet red' speckled stars against a darker red-blackish background with the deep black hole thingy in the middle. I consciously allow the sense to 'move into / back into' the black hole with the draws of breathing, and feel the sense of its immensity. That hum sometimes comes along for the ambiance. Pretty cool stuff. ⚫ Yeah, and there can be a white hole, too. Fun stuff. God, I hope so. 😵  🥴 |
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Dec 23, 2022 12:16:16 GMT -5
You mean with eyes closed? Yeah, and there can be a white hole, too. Fun stuff. God, I hope so. 😵 🥴 .. I've never had a full-blown optical field dissolution or sudden and dramatic change of scenery, although I've read about them and have been close to two people who had that happen but it was considered a pathology. But I have experienced a few sudden ** shifts ** that would be very difficult to describe, and came with various energy-release and informings of mind. Perception can be a rather curious thing. |
|
), depending on where the seeker is situated on his infinite quest.
