Emotions vs thought

[zazeniac]

Aug 28, 2022 11:20:07 GMT -5 @satch said:

Aug 28, 2022 6:56:54 GMT -5 zazeniac said:

This is a quote from "Be As You Are" where Godman summarizes Baghavan's views on persistent questions about jnanis. 

"The hidden premise behind all such questions is the belief that there is a person (the jnani) who experiences a state he

calls the Self. This assumption is not true. It is merely a mental construct devised by those who have not realized the

Self (ajnanis) to make sense of the jnani’s experience.


Even the use of the word jnani is indicative of this erroneous belief since it literally means a knower of jnana, the

reality. The ajnani uses this term because he imagines that the world is made up of seekers of reality and knowers of

reality; the truth of the Self is that there are neither jnanis nor ajnanis, there is only jnana.


Sri Ramana pointed this out both directly and indirectly on many occasions, but few of his questioners were able to

grasp, even conceptually, the implications of such a statement."

from the perspective of the jnani there is no jnani, but there is someone sitting in the Great hall at Ramana ashram looking at a jnani in a loin cloth who has just answered his question about there being no jnani who knows himself as a jnani. In Ramanas writings he often refers to jnanis.

Jih moq tlhih. Tlhih luj. Jegh, satch.

[tenka]

Sept 3, 2022 10:34:52 GMT -5 sree said:

Sept 3, 2022 6:19:17 GMT -5 tenka said:

I think it's self evident that there are different levels of self awareness depending on what one is in experience of .

This is true enough to say in regards to the same species but by design there are limitations based upon such design .

The capacity to Self realise by design is not for all species . The capacity to understand the nature of all appearances equally isn't .

You seem to imply that the human species is better off on account of the capacity to "Self realize". Other species don't commit suicide.

From one perspective committing suicide is a compliment that reflects the capacity to choose continuing with their life experience or not .

That should show you in some respect the differences between a doggy and a human experience .

Perhaps a dog suffering terribly would end their lives if they only knew how to do it or had the thought to do it .

[tenka]

Sept 3, 2022 10:34:52 GMT -5 sree said:

Sept 3, 2022 6:19:17 GMT -5 tenka said:

I think it's self evident that there are different levels of self awareness depending on what one is in experience of .

This is true enough to say in regards to the same species but by design there are limitations based upon such design .

The capacity to Self realise by design is not for all species . The capacity to understand the nature of all appearances equally isn't .

You seem to imply that the human species is better off on account of the capacity to "Self realize". Other species don't commit suicide.

It's not so much being better off, it's just a matter of fact to have the capacity by design to do such things .

[stardustpilgrim]

Sept 3, 2022 6:22:03 GMT -5 tenka said:

Sept 2, 2022 22:08:23 GMT -5 @satch said:

yeah but you didn't answer his question about when awareness is devoid of thought and perception and world. And another thing I just looked out of the window and saw a tree but I didn't have the thought tree in my mind. I just perceived it. Are you telling me that it's necessary to put a label on every single object you see from moment to moment. Surely that would be overwhelming.

This is why I said 'we are talking about perceiving the world' we are not talking about awareness devoid of that and what that means in relation to thought and mind and perception .

There is a whole >book<, The Philosophy of Consciousness Without An Object, Franklin Merrell-Wolff. Also his Pathways Through To Space, most excellent.

Object also means without thought, a silent mind.

Aphorisms on Consciousness-Without-an-Object
By Franklin Merrell-Wolff
From Experience and Philosophy


In addition to using more traditional forms of philosophic expression, Franklin Merrell-Wolff also expressed his Realization in the form of poetry and aphorisms. Regarding his Aphorisms, Wolff writes: "There are two lines of approach to, and employment of, the aphorisms. They may be regarded as seeds to be taken into the meditative state, in which case they will tend to arouse the essentially inexpressible Meaning and Realization which they symbolize. This we may call their mystical value. On the other hand, they may be regarded as primary indefinables upon which a systematic philosophy of the universe and its negation, Nirvana, may be developed. In this case, they may be viewed as a base of reference from which all thought and experience may be evaluated."

In the following aphorisms, Wolff uses the term "Consciousness-without-an-object" to refer to "the Sole Reality upon which all objects and all selves depend and derive their existence" (aphorism 54).


APHORISMS ON CONSCIOUSNESS-WITHOUT-AN-OBJECT


1. Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

2. Before objects were, Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

3. Though objects seem to exist, Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

4. When objects vanish, yet remaining through all unaffected, Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

5. Outside of Consciousness-without-an-object nothing is.

*

6. Within the bosom of Consciousness-without-an-object lies the power of awareness that projects objects.

*

7. When objects are projected, the power of awareness as subject is presupposed, yet Consciousness-without-an-object remains unchanged.

*

8. When consciousness of objects is born, then, likewise, consciousness of absence of objects arises.

*

9. Consciousness of objects is the Universe.

*

10. Consciousness of absence of objects is Nirvana.

*

11. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lie both the Universe and Nirvana, yet to Consciousness-without-an-object these two are the same.

*

12. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lies the seed of Time.

*

13. When awareness cognizes Time then knowledge of Timelessness is born.

*

14. To be aware of Time is to be aware of the Universe, and to be aware of the Universe is to be aware of Time.

*

15. To realize Timelessness is to attain Nirvana.

*

16. But for Consciousness-without-an-object there is no difference between Time and Timelessness.

*

17. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lies the seed of the world-containing Space.

*

18. When awareness cognizes the world-containing Space then knowledge of the Spatial Void is born.

*

19. To be aware of the world-containing Space is to be aware of the Universe of Objects.

*

20. To realize the Spatial Void is to awaken to Nirvanic Consciousness.

*

21. But for Consciousness-without-an-object there is no difference between the world-containing Space and the Spatial Void.

*

22. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lies the Seed of Law.

*

23. When consciousness of objects is born the Law is invoked as a Force tending ever toward Equilibrium.

*

24. All objects exist as tensions within Consciousness-without-an-object that tend ever to flow into their own complements or others.

*

25. The ultimate effect of the flow of all objects into their complements is mutual cancellation in complete Equilibrium.

*

26. Consciousness of the field of tensions is the Universe.

*

27. Consciousness of Equilibrium is Nirvana.

*

28. But for Consciousness-without-an-object there is neither tension nor Equilibrium.

*

29. The state of tensions is the state of ever-becoming.

*

30. Ever-becoming is endless-dying.

*

31. So the state of consciousness of objects is a state of ever-renewing promises that pass into death at the moment of fulfillment.

47. When consciousness is disengaged from objects, Liberation from the forms of the world-containing Space, of Time, and of Law is attained.

[sree]

Sept 3, 2022 14:01:16 GMT -5 tenka said:

Sept 3, 2022 10:34:52 GMT -5 sree said:

You seem to imply that the human species is better off on account of the capacity to "Self realize". Other species don't commit suicide.

From one perspective committing suicide is a compliment that reflects the capacity to choose continuing with their life experience or not .

That should show you in some respect the differences between a doggy and a human experience .

Perhaps a dog suffering terribly would end their lives if they only knew how to do it or had the thought to do it .

I would agree but only in circumstances when to continue living would not be a sensible option because the body is not viable as in the video below. In the case of humans, they would kill their bodies even though healthy.

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2022 12:57:34 GMT -5 zazeniac said:

Aug 28, 2022 11:20:07 GMT -5 @satch said:

from the perspective of the jnani there is no jnani, but there is someone sitting in the Great hall at Ramana ashram looking at a jnani in a loin cloth who has just answered his question about there being no jnani who knows himself as a jnani. In Ramanas writings he often refers to jnanis.

Jih moq tlhih. Tlhih luj. Jegh, satch.

That's Klingon you're speaking. Am I right. I knew it!

[tenka]

Sept 3, 2022 15:03:53 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Sept 3, 2022 6:22:03 GMT -5 tenka said:

This is why I said 'we are talking about perceiving the world' we are not talking about awareness devoid of that and what that means in relation to thought and mind and perception .

There is a whole >book<, The Philosophy of Consciousness Without An Object, Franklin Merrell-Wolff. Also his Pathways Through To Space, most excellent.

Object also means without thought, a silent mind.

Aphorisms on Consciousness-Without-an-Object
By Franklin Merrell-Wolff
From Experience and Philosophy


In addition to using more traditional forms of philosophic expression, Franklin Merrell-Wolff also expressed his Realization in the form of poetry and aphorisms. Regarding his Aphorisms, Wolff writes: "There are two lines of approach to, and employment of, the aphorisms. They may be regarded as seeds to be taken into the meditative state, in which case they will tend to arouse the essentially inexpressible Meaning and Realization which they symbolize. This we may call their mystical value. On the other hand, they may be regarded as primary indefinables upon which a systematic philosophy of the universe and its negation, Nirvana, may be developed. In this case, they may be viewed as a base of reference from which all thought and experience may be evaluated."

In the following aphorisms, Wolff uses the term "Consciousness-without-an-object" to refer to "the Sole Reality upon which all objects and all selves depend and derive their existence" (aphorism 54).

How has he concluded all this mindful stuff? From a position of beyond a thought of it?

It's no good me commented on peeps like this, I have no time to study or research anything . It doesn't interest me to be honest .

For myself it's just more mindful theories about Consciousness that isn't realised and then making up the object to reflect no thoughts .

Again, who is this dude? An appearance of a person only?

I need to know your foundation because you speak along the terms of perception isn't the reality .

Well the reality that would reflect this would equate to potential non persons, perceiving reality incorrectly to then write a book about how things supposedly are ..

If there isn't really an orchestra present then there isn't some chap that you agree with either .

There isn't even a you to agree with anyone - thing .

This is why it can get a little messed up when premises don't support the notions .

[tenka]

Sept 3, 2022 17:01:35 GMT -5 sree said:

Sept 3, 2022 14:01:16 GMT -5 tenka said:

From one perspective committing suicide is a compliment that reflects the capacity to choose continuing with their life experience or not .

That should show you in some respect the differences between a doggy and a human experience .

Perhaps a dog suffering terribly would end their lives if they only knew how to do it or had the thought to do it .

I would agree but only in circumstances when to continue living would not be a sensible option because the body is not viable as in the video below. In the case of humans, they would kill their bodies even though healthy.

It's not about sensible options at the end of the day, many end their lives due to not thinking clearly, the main point is that as human species the majority have the capacity to end their lives .

You have to have the means to do so .

Not all species have the means to do so based upon the design of them .

I am not really plugging any other point other than this .

You either have the capacity or you don't .

This can reflect an aspect of evolution .

It doesn't mean that there is any more of less of what you are present in all instances .

[Reefs]

Sept 3, 2022 15:03:53 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

In the following aphorisms, Wolff uses the term "Consciousness-without-an-object" to refer to "the Sole Reality upon which all objects and all selves depend and derive their existence" (aphorism 54).


APHORISMS ON CONSCIOUSNESS-WITHOUT-AN-OBJECT


1. Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

2. Before objects were, Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

3. Though objects seem to exist, Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

4. When objects vanish, yet remaining through all unaffected, Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

5. Outside of Consciousness-without-an-object nothing is.

*

6. Within the bosom of Consciousness-without-an-object lies the power of awareness that projects objects.

*

7. When objects are projected, the power of awareness as subject is presupposed, yet Consciousness-without-an-object remains unchanged.

*

8. When consciousness of objects is born, then, likewise, consciousness of absence of objects arises.

*

9. Consciousness of objects is the Universe.

*

10. Consciousness of absence of objects is Nirvana.

*

11. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lie both the Universe and Nirvana, yet to Consciousness-without-an-object these two are the same.

*

12. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lies the seed of Time.

*

13. When awareness cognizes Time then knowledge of Timelessness is born.

*

14. To be aware of Time is to be aware of the Universe, and to be aware of the Universe is to be aware of Time.

*

15. To realize Timelessness is to attain Nirvana.

*

16. But for Consciousness-without-an-object there is no difference between Time and Timelessness.

*

17. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lies the seed of the world-containing Space.

*

18. When awareness cognizes the world-containing Space then knowledge of the Spatial Void is born.

*

19. To be aware of the world-containing Space is to be aware of the Universe of Objects.

*

20. To realize the Spatial Void is to awaken to Nirvanic Consciousness.

*

21. But for Consciousness-without-an-object there is no difference between the world-containing Space and the Spatial Void.

*

22. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lies the Seed of Law.

*

23. When consciousness of objects is born the Law is invoked as a Force tending ever toward Equilibrium.

*

24. All objects exist as tensions within Consciousness-without-an-object that tend ever to flow into their own complements or others.

*

25. The ultimate effect of the flow of all objects into their complements is mutual cancellation in complete Equilibrium.

*

26. Consciousness of the field of tensions is the Universe.

*

27. Consciousness of Equilibrium is Nirvana.

*

28. But for Consciousness-without-an-object there is neither tension nor Equilibrium.

*

29. The state of tensions is the state of ever-becoming.

*

30. Ever-becoming is endless-dying.

*

31. So the state of consciousness of objects is a state of ever-renewing promises that pass into death at the moment of fulfillment.

47. When consciousness is disengaged from objects, Liberation from the forms of the world-containing Space, of Time, and of Law is attained.

Is this one of those "Find the mistake(s)!" exercises? 

[stardustpilgrim]

Sept 4, 2022 9:21:08 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Sept 3, 2022 15:03:53 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

In the following aphorisms, Wolff uses the term "Consciousness-without-an-object" to refer to "the Sole Reality upon which all objects and all selves depend and derive their existence" (aphorism 54).


APHORISMS ON CONSCIOUSNESS-WITHOUT-AN-OBJECT


1. Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

2. Before objects were, Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

3. Though objects seem to exist, Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

4. When objects vanish, yet remaining through all unaffected, Consciousness-without-an-object is.

*

5. Outside of Consciousness-without-an-object nothing is.

*

6. Within the bosom of Consciousness-without-an-object lies the power of awareness that projects objects.

*

7. When objects are projected, the power of awareness as subject is presupposed, yet Consciousness-without-an-object remains unchanged.

*

8. When consciousness of objects is born, then, likewise, consciousness of absence of objects arises.

*

9. Consciousness of objects is the Universe.

*

10. Consciousness of absence of objects is Nirvana.

*

11. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lie both the Universe and Nirvana, yet to Consciousness-without-an-object these two are the same.

*

12. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lies the seed of Time.

*

13. When awareness cognizes Time then knowledge of Timelessness is born.

*

14. To be aware of Time is to be aware of the Universe, and to be aware of the Universe is to be aware of Time.

*

15. To realize Timelessness is to attain Nirvana.

*

16. But for Consciousness-without-an-object there is no difference between Time and Timelessness.

*

17. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lies the seed of the world-containing Space.

*

18. When awareness cognizes the world-containing Space then knowledge of the Spatial Void is born.

*

19. To be aware of the world-containing Space is to be aware of the Universe of Objects.

*

20. To realize the Spatial Void is to awaken to Nirvanic Consciousness.

*

21. But for Consciousness-without-an-object there is no difference between the world-containing Space and the Spatial Void.

*

22. Within Consciousness-without-an-object lies the Seed of Law.

*

23. When consciousness of objects is born the Law is invoked as a Force tending ever toward Equilibrium.

*

24. All objects exist as tensions within Consciousness-without-an-object that tend ever to flow into their own complements or others.

*

25. The ultimate effect of the flow of all objects into their complements is mutual cancellation in complete Equilibrium.

*

26. Consciousness of the field of tensions is the Universe.

*

27. Consciousness of Equilibrium is Nirvana.

*

28. But for Consciousness-without-an-object there is neither tension nor Equilibrium.

*

29. The state of tensions is the state of ever-becoming.

*

30. Ever-becoming is endless-dying.

*

31. So the state of consciousness of objects is a state of ever-renewing promises that pass into death at the moment of fulfillment.

47. When consciousness is disengaged from objects, Liberation from the forms of the world-containing Space, of Time, and of Law is attained.

Is this one of those "Find the mistake(s)!" exercises? 

No, it just seemed somehow, tenka-appropriate.

[Reefs]

Sept 4, 2022 9:51:13 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

Sept 4, 2022 9:21:08 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Is this one of those "Find the mistake(s)!" exercises? 

No, it just seemed somehow, tenka-appropriate.

"Tenka-appropriate"? I don't think that's his style at all! Try Ramakrishna style, not FMW style.

[stardustpilgrim]

Sept 4, 2022 11:23:03 GMT -5 Reefs said:

Sept 4, 2022 9:51:13 GMT -5 stardustpilgrim said:

No, it just seemed somehow, tenka-appropriate.

"Tenka-appropriate"? I don't think that's his style at all! Try Ramakrishna style, not FMW style.

I only wanted to make one point, found a couple of sentences. But I couldn't resist the one-line-paragraphs.

[laughter]

All emotions have the potential to cloud and distort perception, discernment and judgment. And that potential is usually the case. Almost always the case.

There is only one emotion that is free of this influence. And it's really not, strictly speaking, an emotion. Really, it's pointing to the existential truth using a word that evokes an emotion by definition.

The only "emotion" that doesn't amplify illusion is unconditional love.

[andrew]

Sept 13, 2022 8:41:14 GMT -5 laughter said:

All emotions have the potential to cloud and distort perception, discernment and judgment. And that potential is usually the case. Almost always the case.

There is only one emotion that is free of this influence. And it's really not, strictly speaking, an emotion. Really, it's pointing to the existential truth using a word that evokes an emotion by definition.

The only "emotion" that doesn't amplify illusion is unconditional love.

Nice

[sree]

Sept 4, 2022 6:14:22 GMT -5 tenka said:

Sept 3, 2022 17:01:35 GMT -5 sree said:

I would agree but only in circumstances when to continue living would not be a sensible option because the body is not viable as in the video below. In the case of humans, they would kill their bodies even though healthy.

It's not about sensible options at the end of the day, many end their lives due to not thinking clearly, the main point is that as human species the majority have the capacity to end their lives .

You have to have the means to do so .

Not all species have the means to do so based upon the design of them .

I am not really plugging any other point other than this .

You either have the capacity or you don't .

This can reflect an aspect of evolution .

It doesn't mean that there is any more of less of what you are present in all instances .

What capacity are you talking about. The lioness with the broken leg doesn't have the capacity to jump in a river and drown herself to end the misery?