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Post by tenka on Sept 16, 2022 14:18:33 GMT -5
It's not about sensible options at the end of the day, many end their lives due to not thinking clearly, the main point is that as human species the majority have the capacity to end their lives . You have to have the means to do so . Not all species have the means to do so based upon the design of them .
I am not really plugging any other point other than this . You either have the capacity or you don't . This can reflect an aspect of evolution . It doesn't mean that there is any more of less of what you are present in all instances . What capacity are you talking about. The lioness with the broken leg doesn't have the capacity to jump in a river and drown herself to end the misery? Basically you can take your pick . A monkey can't intentionally pull the trigger of a gun and end it's life of misery . You either have the understanding of certain things or you don't . Does a monkey contemplate Self or self lol . Does a goldfish speak about the world as an illusory dream . It's endless . |
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Post by sree on Sept 16, 2022 16:55:10 GMT -5
What capacity are you talking about. The lioness with the broken leg doesn't have the capacity to jump in a river and drown herself to end the misery? Basically you can take your pick . A monkey can't intentionally pull the trigger of a gun and end it's life of misery .
You either have the understanding of certain things or you don't . Does a monkey contemplate Self or self lol . Does a goldfish speak about the world as an illusory dream . It's endless . You are assuming that monkeys are capable of living lives of misery but don't have the capacity to shoot themselves in the head to end the mess they have created for themselves.
You imply that the human capacity to contemplate Self or self is a state of evolution higher than that of monkeys and other animals. What good is such a capacity if it can bring about a life of misery?
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Post by tenka on Sept 17, 2022 13:54:14 GMT -5
Basically you can take your pick . A monkey can't intentionally pull the trigger of a gun and end it's life of misery .
You either have the understanding of certain things or you don't . Does a monkey contemplate Self or self lol . Does a goldfish speak about the world as an illusory dream . It's endless . You are assuming that monkeys are capable of living lives of misery but don't have the capacity to shoot themselves in the head to end the mess they have created for themselves.
You imply that the human capacity to contemplate Self or self is a state of evolution higher than that of monkeys and other animals. What good is such a capacity if it can bring about a life of misery?
I was simply following your lead in that lions suffer . If you cage a monkey and starve it to near death or kill it's young before it's eyes, then I believe the monkey suffers . From a human perspective, yes, I believe that any species that has the capability to realise what they are, is at a stage where they are advanced beyond a species that is not . Being advanced as a species doesn't reflect upon them being anymore of what you are than anything else . Evolution is a self measure based upon self awareness more than anything else . |
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Post by sree on Sept 18, 2022 18:00:55 GMT -5
You are assuming that monkeys are capable of living lives of misery but don't have the capacity to shoot themselves in the head to end the mess they have created for themselves.
You imply that the human capacity to contemplate Self or self is a state of evolution higher than that of monkeys and other animals. What good is such a capacity if it can bring about a life of misery?
I was simply following your lead in that lions suffer . If you cage a monkey and starve it to near death or kill it's young before it's eyes, then I believe the monkey suffers . From a human perspective, yes, I believe that any species that has the capability to realise what they are, is at a stage where they are advanced beyond a species that is not .Being advanced as a species doesn't reflect upon them being anymore of what you are than anything else . Evolution is a self measure based upon self awareness more than anything else . Yours is the human perspective, and you see yourself as more advanced than monkeys because you have the capability to realize what you are and they don't. I question your judgment.
The ability to kill yourself is a morbidity, not an advancement. |
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Post by tenka on Sept 25, 2022 14:06:20 GMT -5
I was simply following your lead in that lions suffer . If you cage a monkey and starve it to near death or kill it's young before it's eyes, then I believe the monkey suffers . From a human perspective, yes, I believe that any species that has the capability to realise what they are, is at a stage where they are advanced beyond a species that is not .Being advanced as a species doesn't reflect upon them being anymore of what you are than anything else . Evolution is a self measure based upon self awareness more than anything else . Yours is the human perspective, and you see yourself as more advanced than monkeys because you have the capability to realize what you are and they don't. I question your judgment.
The ability to kill yourself is a morbidity, not an advancement. Well I am experiencing a human perspective just like you are, so I compare that with something else ... I compare a horse and cart with a jet fighter or a space ship that can travel in ways that defy gravity and physics as we know it ... By design there are differences between things ... If you don't want to association advancement between things that fine .. |
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Post by sree on Sept 25, 2022 19:45:24 GMT -5
Yours is the human perspective, and you see yourself as more advanced than monkeys because you have the capability to realize what you are and they don't. I question your judgment.
The ability to kill yourself is a morbidity, not an advancement. Well I am experiencing a human perspective just like you are, so I compare that with something else ... I compare a horse and cart with a jet fighter or a space ship that can travel in ways that defy gravity and physics as we know it ... By design there are differences between things ... If you don't want to association advancement between things that fine ..
Advancement is great, and I am all for it. It's your idea of advancement that I am questioning.
Tenka is a human being. He is not a monkey. Tenka is more advanced than a monkey but his advanced form of life has screw ups. However, if he screws up, he has the ability to commit suicide in order to end the mess he creates for himself as an advanced life form.
Don't you think not screwing up being a monkey is better than being tenka who has the ability to kill himself when he screws up?
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Post by tenka on Oct 7, 2022 14:23:54 GMT -5
Well I am experiencing a human perspective just like you are, so I compare that with something else ... I compare a horse and cart with a jet fighter or a space ship that can travel in ways that defy gravity and physics as we know it ... By design there are differences between things ... If you don't want to association advancement between things that fine ..
Advancement is great, and I am all for it. It's your idea of advancement that I am questioning.
Tenka is a human being. He is not a monkey. Tenka is more advanced than a monkey but his advanced form of life has screw ups. However, if he screws up, he has the ability to commit suicide in order to end the mess he creates for himself as an advanced life form.
Don't you think not screwing up being a monkey is better than being tenka who has the ability to kill himself when he screws up?
Screwing up depending on how you look at it can be a blessing in disguise . Monkeys do things that creates an effect and has consequences just like any other species . Do you see a monkey doing the same thing time and time again that puts it in danger? Having the capacity to reflect upon oneself and act accordingly shows how one is aware of oneself and the situation to various degrees. In my eyes, this is an advancement compared to something that doesn't have the capacity to do that . Committing suicide is just one flavour to what I am speaking of . There are so many examples of how one species can experience something that another cannot . This will depend on ones design as a species . |
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Post by sree on Oct 7, 2022 17:37:58 GMT -5
Advancement is great, and I am all for it. It's your idea of advancement that I am questioning.
Tenka is a human being. He is not a monkey. Tenka is more advanced than a monkey but his advanced form of life has screw ups. However, if he screws up, he has the ability to commit suicide in order to end the mess he creates for himself as an advanced life form.
Don't you think not screwing up being a monkey is better than being tenka who has the ability to kill himself when he screws up?
Monkeys do things that creates an effect and has consequences just like any other species . Do you see a monkey doing the same thing time and time again that puts it in danger? Having the capacity to reflect upon oneself and act accordingly shows how one is aware of oneself and the situation to various degrees. In my eyes, this is an advancement compared to something that doesn't have the capacity to do that . Committing suicide is just one flavour to what I am speaking of . There are so many examples of how one species can experience something that another cannot . This will depend on ones design as a species . How else can you look at a screw up. It's to put your foot in your mouth, have egg on your face, or worse still get irradiated in a nuclear war. The only monkeys I have seen doing the same thing time and time again that put them in danger are peeps.
Committing suicide is the consequence of the capacity to be aware of oneself. Looking at the mirror and becoming aware that you are the fairest one of all brings forth misery and rage. Do you think other animals suffer depression? |
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Post by laughter on Oct 16, 2022 5:05:48 GMT -5
Tolle wrote that emotions are "thoughts felt by the body", and Enigma would always challenge people with the idea that there are no emotions that don't have some thought as a basis. What I've found by the meditative practice of "watching the thinker" and "inner body awareness", is that each of these notions are insights that can be self-verified. What ultimately leads pure intellect astray is the very severance from "the body" that is the basis of intellectual utility: abstraction and dispassion. But there is nowhere for mind to turn. It should go without saying that emotions have even more potential to deceive than objective thought. There is a different meaning for "dispassion", one which refers to a quiet mind that isn't disconnected from the body. This to me seems the essence of both zazen, and the eyes-open, walking/talking meditation, meditation at least similar to what ZD calls ATA. Certainly, in such meditation, there is no effort to suppress emotion. Emotion is visceral, and separate from thought. And I can prove it if you ever fixed your answering machine.   sure gimme a call and we'll chat about it. In the biggest picture either way of looking at emotion are simply different perspectives, different thoughts about what's happening. The notion of becoming conscious of the content and dynamic of your own mind is one that can lead to a sudden and dramatic cessation to all sorts of mental noise. It's not necessary for realizing the existential truth, not everyone's going to walk that particular trail. But it can be part of a backward looking narrative of becoming accident prone, and it's one that I'd recommend to anyone with an interest in truth. |
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Post by laughter on Oct 16, 2022 5:26:21 GMT -5
sure gimme a call and we'll chat about it. In the biggest picture either way of looking at emotion are simply different perspectives, different thoughts about what's happening. The notion of becoming conscious of the content and dynamic of your own mind is one that can lead to a sudden and dramatic cessation to all sorts of mental noise. It's not necessary for realizing the existential truth, not everyone's going to walk that particular trail. But it can be part of a backward looking narrative of becoming accident prone, and it's one that I'd recommend to anyone with an interest in truth. vs. MindAny thoughts? First off, as you already alluded, they aren't really "two different things", they aren't separate. But the distinction can still be really useful. People can lose themselves in one or the other. Over-analyzing and over-thinking is too much thought. Deep unconscious negative emotions like rage or uncontrolled lust are getting lost in the subconscious body/mind. And on the positive side, in motion, thought and action and feeling can sometimes harmonize, and that's how we recognize love, as it's happening.  |
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Post by zazeniac on Oct 16, 2022 6:19:01 GMT -5
First off, as you already alluded, they aren't really "two different things", they aren't separate. But the distinction can still be really useful. People can lose themselves in one or the other. Over-analyzing and over-thinking is too much thought. Deep unconscious negative emotions like rage or uncontrolled lust are getting lost in the subconscious body/mind. And on the positive side, in motion, thought and action and feeling can sometimes harmonize, and that's how we recognize love, as it's happening. I would if there was anything to talk about, but fortunately I guess I’ve run out of crazy ideas Have a nice winter briefer! Tell Sue farmer says hey. Almost all of them are "crazy," except "fetch wood, carry water." I stay out of trouble that way. 🖖 |
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sure gimme a call and we'll chat about it.