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Post by zazeniac on Aug 27, 2022 8:56:33 GMT -5
There are no jnani's. I know it is a concession to the intellect. There is noone who's enlightened. I understand this.
But from the seekers perspective is there a difference between thought and emotion? It seems the thought stream can be capped. Mindfulness, meditation, SI, ZD's method, etc. But can emotions be capped? Or should they be? You hear very little from sages on this. It seems emotions are closer to the center than thought.
Popeye? Wtf!!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 27, 2022 9:59:37 GMT -5
There are no jnani's. I know it is a concession to the intellect. There is noone who's enlightened. I understand this. But from the seekers perspective is there a difference between thought and emotion? It seems the thought stream can be capped. Mindfulness, meditation, SI, ZD's method, etc. But can emotions be capped? Or should they be? You hear very little from sages on this. It seems emotions are closer to the center than thought. Popeye? Wtf!! There are two categories of emotions. One, emotions are natural, a natural expression, everyone is born with naturally positive emotions. The second category begins at birth, see the distinction? First, have at birth, second, begins at birth. I tried to dialogue with zd on this in the past, got nowhere. The second category of emotions constitute the cultural self as much as thoughts do, probably even more~so. These collected emotions can be both positive and negative, but are negative for the most part. Example, if the baby has parents who blow up and shout very loudly and curse, threaten, shame others, just generally have a bad disposition, the baby (unconsciously) collects the data of these nasty emotions, and they form a part of his or her cultural self. They are also collected in the neural structure, but these extend down to the heart (solar plexus) and even down to the guts (Hara), via the nervous system. So, as with data-collected-thoughts, when these *stored* emotions are called up by circumstances in life, the child acts out what they have stored. But the baby copies their surrounding ~atmosphere~, the emotions of the caregivers. Copy, repeat, copy, repeat. So, the second kind of emotions obstruct the first kind, so people under ordinary circumstances don't experience positive emotions. Then, what we consider as positive emotions, is really just the absence of negative emotions. But actual positive emotions are so much more. This is basically why *~alignment~* is necessary. Do you know how difficult it is to get rid of a bad habit? I'm sure all of you do. So vasanas and samskaras also consists of negative emotions. To get rid of the negativity, you have to ~take the energy out of~ what holds the neural structures together. It's easy to see negative emotions pop-up, it's almost unavoidable seeing, in self and in others. But now we begin to get into debate territory, I don't care to debate. But, one of the Labors of > Hercules< is about this. Cleaning out the stables. These are not just stories, they have application, they are symbol and allegory, teaching-stories. So we have to clean out the crap of negative emotions. Then, we can get back to the positive emotions we were born with. And yes, positive emotions are closer to ~what-we-are~ in actuality. Emotions are almost unimaginably quicker than thought. Positive emotions can act appropriately *in the moment*. Negative emotions never take anyone anywhere good, they will always eventually lead to violence, if unchecked. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from the Hui-Neng Sutra In about two months' time, I reached the Ta Yu Mountain. There I noticed that several hundred men were in pursuit of me with the intention of robbing me of my robe and begging bowl. Among them there was a monk named Hui Ming, whose lay surname was Chen. He was a general of the fourth rank in lay life. His manner was rough and his temper hot. Of all the pursuers, he was the most vigilant in search of me. When he was about to overtake me, I threw the robe and begging bowl on a rock, saying, "This robe is nothing but a symbol. What is the use of taking it away by force?" (I then hid myself). When he got to the rock, he tried to pick them up, but found he could not. Then he shouted out, "Lay Brother, Lay Brother, (for the Patriarch had not yet formally joined the Order) I come for the Dharma, not for the robe." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hakuin, the fiery and intensely dynamic Zen master, was once visited by a samurai warrior. "I want to know about heaven and hell," said the samurai. "Do they really exist?" he asked Hakuin. Hakuin looked at the soldier and asked, "Who are you?" "I am a samurai," announced the proud warrior. "Ha! exclaimed Hakuin. "What makes you think you can understand such insightful things? You don’t look like a Samurai; you look like a beggar. Go away and do not waste my time with your foolish questions," Hakuin said, waving his hand to drive away the samurai. The enraged samurai couldn’t take Hakuin’s insults. He drew his sword, readied for the kill, when Hakuin calmly retorted, "This is hell." The soldier was taken aback. His face softened. Humbled by the wisdom of Hakuin, he put away his sword and bowed before the Zen Master. "And this is heaven," Hakuin stated, just as calmly. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 27, 2022 10:52:25 GMT -5
There are no jnani's. I know it is a concession to the intellect. There is noone who's enlightened. I understand this. But from the seekers perspective is there a difference between thought and emotion? It seems the thought stream can be capped. Mindfulness, meditation, SI, ZD's method, etc. But can emotions be capped? Or should they be? You hear very little from sages on this. It seems emotions are closer to the center than thought. Popeye? Wtf!! Tolle wrote that emotions are "thoughts felt by the body", and Enigma would always challenge people with the idea that there are no emotions that don't have some thought as a basis. What I've found by the meditative practice of "watching the thinker" and "inner body awareness", is that each of these notions are insights that can be self-verified. What ultimately leads pure intellect astray is the very severance from "the body" that is the basis of intellectual utility: abstraction and dispassion. But there is nowhere for mind to turn. It should go without saying that emotions have even more potential to deceive than objective thought. There is a different meaning for "dispassion", one which refers to a quiet mind that isn't disconnected from the body. This to me seems the essence of both zazen, and the eyes-open, walking/talking meditation, meditation at least similar to what ZD calls ATA. Certainly, in such meditation, there is no effort to suppress emotion. |
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Post by zazeniac on Aug 27, 2022 11:35:09 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. They are appreciated. I need to chew on them, before replying. They seemed to fit my take. I prefer to call ATA "zendancing". In his honor. It'll remind me of him.
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Post by tenka on Aug 27, 2022 14:00:30 GMT -5
There are no jnani's. I know it is a concession to the intellect. There is noone who's enlightened. I understand this. But from the seekers perspective is there a difference between thought and emotion? It seems the thought stream can be capped. Mindfulness, meditation, SI, ZD's method, etc. But can emotions be capped? Or should they be? You hear very little from sages on this. It seems emotions are closer to the center than thought. Popeye? Wtf!! Tolle wrote that emotions are "thoughts felt by the body", and Enigma would always challenge people with the idea that there are no emotions that don't have some thought as a basis. What I've found by the meditative practice of "watching the thinker" and "inner body awareness", is that each of these notions are insights that can be self-verified. What ultimately leads pure intellect astray is the very severance from "the body" that is the basis of intellectual utility: abstraction and dispassion. But there is nowhere for mind to turn. It should go without saying that emotions have even more potential to deceive than objective thought. There is a different meaning for "dispassion", one which refers to a quiet mind that isn't disconnected from the body. This to me seems the essence of both zazen, and the eyes-open, walking/talking meditation, meditation at least similar to what ZD calls ATA. Certainly, in such meditation, there is no effort to suppress emotion. Just as there is no perception without thought . Many feel that you can perceive without thought being the foundation of it . |
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Post by zazeniac on Aug 27, 2022 15:32:06 GMT -5
There are no jnani's. I know it is a concession to the intellect. There is noone who's enlightened. I understand this. But from the seekers perspective is there a difference between thought and emotion? It seems the thought stream can be capped. Mindfulness, meditation, SI, ZD's method, etc. But can emotions be capped? Or should they be? You hear very little from sages on this. It seems emotions are closer to the center than thought. Popeye? Wtf!! Love you. Love this. Seems like a two step dance to me, as you’ve said, but I wouldn’t know how anything works. Only how it works out, which is much better than you could possibly imagine. And I don’t know what to tell you to do… but you should get very busy doing it. Pretty much agree. It's analysis, a concession to the intellect. I've developed an aversion to "better" though: the looking for what is looking. |
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Post by zazeniac on Aug 27, 2022 15:56:52 GMT -5
There are no jnani's. I know it is a concession to the intellect. There is noone who's enlightened. I understand this. But from the seekers perspective is there a difference between thought and emotion? It seems the thought stream can be capped. Mindfulness, meditation, SI, ZD's method, etc. But can emotions be capped? Or should they be? You hear very little from sages on this. It seems emotions are closer to the center than thought. Popeye? Wtf!! Tolle wrote that emotions are "thoughts felt by the body", and Enigma would always challenge people with the idea that there are no emotions that don't have some thought as a basis. What I've found by the meditative practice of "watching the thinker" and "inner body awareness", is that each of these notions are insights that can be self-verified. What ultimately leads pure intellect astray is the very severance from "the body" that is the basis of intellectual utility: abstraction and dispassion. But there is nowhere for mind to turn. It should go without saying that emotions have even more potential to deceive than objective thought. There is a different meaning for "dispassion", one which refers to a quiet mind that isn't disconnected from the body. This to me seems the essence of both zazen, and the eyes-open, walking/talking meditation, meditation at least similar to what ZD calls ATA. Certainly, in such meditation, there is no effort to suppress emotion. Thought to me is internal language. Unless cats can't feel or express fear, when my dog chases them into a tree, they are fear-less? In the definition of thought I am premising, can cats think? Can you be happy and think about what you had for breakfast? Okay, yes thoughts can be visual scenarios also. In other words, a cat can be walking in the house and can remember a big scary dog chasing him and be scared. But while traipsing through the house in such a state, he's not thinking about traipsing through the house ( tenka-proofing my point). In other words, thoughts CAN trigger emotions, but so can Cujo? No need for thought to trigger the adrenaline. The problem is that Cujo feeling can stay with you for generations. Thoughts might arise to try to assuage its effect. |
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Post by zazeniac on Aug 27, 2022 16:20:38 GMT -5
There are no jnani's. I know it is a concession to the intellect. There is noone who's enlightened. I understand this. But from the seekers perspective is there a difference between thought and emotion? It seems the thought stream can be capped. Mindfulness, meditation, SI, ZD's method, etc. But can emotions be capped? Or should they be? You hear very little from sages on this. It seems emotions are closer to the center than thought. Popeye? Wtf!! There are two categories of emotions. One, emotions are natural, a natural expression, everyone is born with naturally positive emotions. The second category begins at birth, see the distinction? First, have at birth, second, begins at birth. I tried to dialogue with zd on this in the past, got nowhere. The second category of emotions constitute the cultural self as much as thoughts do, probably even more~so. These collected emotions can be both positive and negative, but are negative for the most part. Example, if the baby has parents who blow up and shout very loudly and curse, threaten, shame others, just generally have a bad disposition, the baby (unconsciously) collects the data of these nasty emotions, and they form a part of his or her cultural self. They are also collected in the neural structure, but these extend down to the heart (solar plexus) and even down to the guts (Hara), via the nervous system. So, as with data-collected-thoughts, when these *stored* emotions are called up by circumstances in life, the child acts out what they have stored. But the baby copies their surrounding ~atmosphere~, the emotions of the caregivers. Copy, repeat, copy, repeat. So, the second kind of emotions obstruct the first kind, so people under ordinary circumstances don't experience positive emotions. Then, what we consider as positive emotions, is really just the absence of negative emotions. But actual positive emotions are so much more. This is basically why *~alignment~* is necessary. Do you know how difficult it is to get rid of a bad habit? I'm sure all of you do. So vasanas and samskaras also consists of negative emotions. To get rid of the negativity, you have to ~take the energy out of~ what holds the neural structures together. It's easy to see negative emotions pop-up, it's almost unavoidable seeing, in self and in others. But now we begin to get into debate territory, I don't care to debate. But, one of the Labors of > Hercules< is about this. Cleaning out the stables. These are not just stories, they have application, they are symbol and allegory, teaching-stories. So we have to clean out the crap of negative emotions. Then, we can get back to the positive emotions we were born with. And yes, positive emotions are closer to ~what-we-are~ in actuality. Emotions are almost unimaginably quicker than thought. Positive emotions can act appropriately *in the moment*. Negative emotions never take anyone anywhere good, they will always eventually lead to violence, if unchecked. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from the Hui-Neng Sutra In about two months' time, I reached the Ta Yu Mountain. There I noticed that several hundred men were in pursuit of me with the intention of robbing me of my robe and begging bowl. Among them there was a monk named Hui Ming, whose lay surname was Chen. He was a general of the fourth rank in lay life. His manner was rough and his temper hot. Of all the pursuers, he was the most vigilant in search of me. When he was about to overtake me, I threw the robe and begging bowl on a rock, saying, "This robe is nothing but a symbol. What is the use of taking it away by force?" (I then hid myself). When he got to the rock, he tried to pick them up, but found he could not. Then he shouted out, "Lay Brother, Lay Brother, (for the Patriarch had not yet formally joined the Order) I come for the Dharma, not for the robe." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hakuin, the fiery and intensely dynamic Zen master, was once visited by a samurai warrior. "I want to know about heaven and hell," said the samurai. "Do they really exist?" he asked Hakuin. Hakuin looked at the soldier and asked, "Who are you?" "I am a samurai," announced the proud warrior. "Ha! exclaimed Hakuin. "What makes you think you can understand such insightful things? You don’t look like a Samurai; you look like a beggar. Go away and do not waste my time with your foolish questions," Hakuin said, waving his hand to drive away the samurai. The enraged samurai couldn’t take Hakuin’s insults. He drew his sword, readied for the kill, when Hakuin calmly retorted, "This is hell." The soldier was taken aback. His face softened. Humbled by the wisdom of Hakuin, he put away his sword and bowed before the Zen Master. "And this is heaven," Hakuin stated, just as calmly. Yes, the imprints of experience affect how we react emotionally. Masochists associate pain with pleasure. In my view, it's the luck of the draw,;in Sree's view it's the parrot's pick,;in yours, it's karma. I grew up, til the age of six, in a very quiet, and solitary environment. I associate this with peace. My wife's household was the opposite. When my dog's go crazy, cat, lawn mower, leaf blower whatever, I get unnerved. She's relaxed. "I shouldn't wig out. Dogs are dogs. They bark. Just breathe. Focus on who's wigging out." Hahaha. Thought valium. The real thing is better. The crux, the mechanism, automatic, avoid the unpleasant. Aha! I'm Sree. |
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Post by zazeniac on Aug 27, 2022 16:24:56 GMT -5
Pretty much agree. It's analysis, a concession to the intellect. I've developed an aversion to "better" though: the looking for what is looking. Hard to say what aversions will do, but I try to avoid them Aversion to aversion. When will it stop. Clever though. I'll give you that. |
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Post by zazeniac on Aug 27, 2022 18:13:06 GMT -5
Aversion to aversion. When will it stop. Clever though. I'll give you that. I don't know, man, but it will be a crazy wicked road if its anything like mine.. with almost non stop introspection (deeply, and unafraid.. which is not easy, like at all, so really good luck if you try..) but 'my situation' still hasn't ended yet.. which I guess is normal?.. since its only been a week (if that.. there has been no "I'm done" as yet, which seems crazy, because I seem pretty well done here.. and I almost can't' even imagine what might arise from these ashes.. should this thing of mine incinerate completely.. so as always we'll see.. but right now peeps I am full and overflowing with the "Holy Spirit" whatever that is... so come get some right now get it but you won't, so just go back to your simple pretend happy life Having to "go" someplace to be happy, doesn't apply to everyone. I saw a video of a happy man checking out the waterless shore before the tsunami. Will you still be happy if "we'll see" evaporates? To me that's the real test. I'm in your shoes. I want the dogs to stop barking forever. Something naive about that. My nose tells me it's the wrong scent. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 27, 2022 19:49:16 GMT -5
I don't know, man, but it will be a crazy wicked road if its anything like mine.. with almost non stop introspection (deeply, and unafraid.. which is not easy, like at all, so really good luck if you try..) but 'my situation' still hasn't ended yet.. which I guess is normal?.. since its only been a week (if that.. there has been no "I'm done" as yet, which seems crazy, because I seem pretty well done here.. and I almost can't' even imagine what might arise from these ashes.. should this thing of mine incinerate completely.. so as always we'll see.. but right now peeps I am full and overflowing with the "Holy Spirit" whatever that is... so come get some right now get it but you won't, so just go back to your simple pretend happy life Having to "go" someplace to be happy, doesn't apply to everyone. I saw a video of a happy man checking out the waterless shore before the tsunami. Will you still be happy if "we'll see" evaporates? To me that's the real test. I'm in your shoes. I want the dogs to stop barking forever. Something naive about that. My nose tells me it's the wrong scent. I saw a film on this many years ago, before the big tsunami. That's the time you go immediately for high ground, always stuck in my mind. There's a lot in your eight sentences. A lot. Yes, the question. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 27, 2022 21:32:58 GMT -5
Tolle wrote that emotions are "thoughts felt by the body", and Enigma would always challenge people with the idea that there are no emotions that don't have some thought as a basis. What I've found by the meditative practice of "watching the thinker" and "inner body awareness", is that each of these notions are insights that can be self-verified. What ultimately leads pure intellect astray is the very severance from "the body" that is the basis of intellectual utility: abstraction and dispassion. But there is nowhere for mind to turn. It should go without saying that emotions have even more potential to deceive than objective thought. There is a different meaning for "dispassion", one which refers to a quiet mind that isn't disconnected from the body. This to me seems the essence of both zazen, and the eyes-open, walking/talking meditation, meditation at least similar to what ZD calls ATA. Certainly, in such meditation, there is no effort to suppress emotion. Thought to me is internal language. Unless cats can't feel or express fear, when my dog chases them into a tree, they are fear-less? In the definition of thought I am premising, can cats think? Can you be happy and think about what you had for breakfast? Okay, yes thoughts can be visual scenarios also. In other words, a cat can be walking in the house and can remember a big scary dog chasing him and be scared. But while traipsing through the house in such a state, he's not thinking about traipsing through the house ( tenka-proofing my point). In other words, thoughts CAN trigger emotions, but so can Cujo? No need for thought to trigger the adrenaline. The problem is that Cujo feeling can stay with you for generations. Thoughts might arise to try to assuage its effect. Yes, it comes down to a definition of "emotion". You know the drill, right?  |
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Post by zazeniac on Aug 27, 2022 21:41:41 GMT -5
Having to "go" someplace to be happy, doesn't apply to everyone. I saw a video of a happy man checking out the waterless shore before the tsunami. Will you still be happy if "we'll see" evaporates? To me that's the real test. I'm in your shoes. I want the dogs to stop barking forever. Something naive about that. My nose tells me it's the wrong scent. You're not anywhere near my shoes and you'd be a fool to think anything along those lines... But you do you man, good luck But I am in your shoes. We're stretching for the gold ring when we're sitting in it. Why they call it the MERRY-go-round (it's the real ring -- a metaphor). Get it? Yet like you say. You have to do you. But I didn't start the thread to compare. I was honestly interested in why the literature is big on thought and light on emotion. Read a little bit about it in Godman's book. Whenever talk of emotions came up, RM steered the seeker to the one experiencing it. Always away from the object. That's RM's ticket whether emotion or thought, go find the source. I'm neither buying it or not. I'm on the slow train. But we're all heading home. |
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Post by laughter on Aug 27, 2022 21:48:17 GMT -5
Tolle wrote that emotions are "thoughts felt by the body", and Enigma would always challenge people with the idea that there are no emotions that don't have some thought as a basis. What I've found by the meditative practice of "watching the thinker" and "inner body awareness", is that each of these notions are insights that can be self-verified. What ultimately leads pure intellect astray is the very severance from "the body" that is the basis of intellectual utility: abstraction and dispassion. But there is nowhere for mind to turn. It should go without saying that emotions have even more potential to deceive than objective thought. There is a different meaning for "dispassion", one which refers to a quiet mind that isn't disconnected from the body. This to me seems the essence of both zazen, and the eyes-open, walking/talking meditation, meditation at least similar to what ZD calls ATA. Certainly, in such meditation, there is no effort to suppress emotion. Just as there is no perception without thought . Many feel that you can perceive without thought being the foundation of it . The interplay of "thought" and "perception" is something that ultimately defies any rational expression of mind. One way to understand this idea of the thoughts underlying emotions is as a relative causation. Sadness, happiness, anger, etc. .. these happen for reasons. They are not acausal. That's not to say there aren't some extreme states where it's just energy, passing through. That these are best described as emotions doesn't contradict the idea of the causal relationship between thought and emotion, which is just a model, just an idea, with it's limits, just like any other abstraction. We could say that in the instances of energy moving through, that the cause is the entirety of eternity and all of creation. You can also make the same statement about any garden variety emotion, such as annoyance, and you wouldn't be wrong, per se, just mixing existential contexts. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2022 23:25:09 GMT -5
There are no jnani's. I know it is a concession to the intellect. There is noone who's enlightened. I understand this. But from the seekers perspective is there a difference between thought and emotion? It seems the thought stream can be capped. Mindfulness, meditation, SI, ZD's method, etc. But can emotions be capped? Or should they be? You hear very little from sages on this. It seems emotions are closer to the center than thought. Popeye? Wtf!! No jnanis? That's news to me. Those sages you mention, in other words jnanis, would not differentiate between emotions and thoughts because all of it is just mental activity and all of it, whether emotions or thoughts, should be treated the same, as experiences which come and go. |
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