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Post by sree on Jul 26, 2022 9:25:13 GMT -5
I may have not be clear. My reasoning based on my perception on consciousness is this. The falling tree will make a noise if you are there. You, or andrew or anyone, is a state of awareness. If the tree is within that state, it makes a noise. The tree has no independent existence of its own. Don't follow the science. There is no objective reality. Each of us is a state of awareness. If all of us die, everything vanishes. There never were dinosaurs before us. We did not evolve from apes.We are not human beings. We are consciousness. And we don't come out of the brain. You are not a state. One way to point to what is meant by this is that you are what states appear into and eventually run their course and disappear from. This is why some of those ducks you are hunting will sometimes quack-up a distinction between "Consciousness" (perpetual change) and "Awareness" (absolute ground of empty being from which all change arises). Not something you can theorize about. Not successfully, anyway. You are too clever by half.
You have made a distinction between consciousness and awareness by redefining the meaning of those terms. This is why you are a weirdo, a member of a cult.
Unless your wife is as whacked out as you, I bet you don't ever talk either to her or the people at Exxon Mobil the way you are talking to me now. Perpetual change. What the hell is that?
Absolute ground of empty being? I can relate with that after knocking back a dozen shots of scotch.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 26, 2022 9:28:34 GMT -5
I understand hidden variable have been disproven. I also understand the Implicate Order, exists. Bohm's function of the entirety of all information is a facial absurdity. How would you ever express it in terms of what it was expressing? IOW: inherently unknowable. But mathematicians have been objectifying "infinity" since L'Hôpital. Go check out the absurd mess of the current state of that particular art.  I never said the endless mind spin doesn't have practical implications.  (see what I did there?) What's wrong with inherently unknowable? That's kind of the definition of Implicate Order. Who cares about practical applications? What's Planck's quantum limit? It's the window of the unknowable. Is space quantized? Yes. Is time quantized? Yes. What does it mean when an electron makes a quantum jump? It does not traverse either time or space. What does it mean that entangled particles are synced instantaneously? Instantaneously is pretty quick. Implicate Order. Time and space, explicate order. |
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Post by sree on Jul 26, 2022 9:35:57 GMT -5
Sorry, I was being a bad peep. Allow me to clarify the top line in bold above. I am human consciousness as opposed to squirrel consciousness. As human consciousness, I am a state of awareness in which there is cognition of place populated by people and things not to mention sensations like sound of cars passing by, chirping of birds, the AC condenser running, leaves of trees rustled by the breeze that also touches the skin of my body. What else? Can you tell me where you are going with this? I am the impatient type. If you can state your objective, I can give you the info you want right now instead of having to check back every 24 hours.
What's so special about human consciousness? Human consciousness is more able than squirrel consciousness is gathering nuts and storing them. Human consciousness can do a lot of fun things after scarfing down nuts for dinner. It is the bad things that human consciousness do that I want stopped. |
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Post by andrew on Jul 26, 2022 9:35:59 GMT -5
very cool. Seems like a few folks here had transcendent experiences when young, I know satch has talked about samadi when he was a kid. Wonder if there's a bit if a connection/theme i.e spiritual adults had early transcendent experiences. Not true for me though, I had an amazing childnghood in many ways, the only real challenge were intense phases of anxiety and neurotic thinking (hypochondria). Any kind of spiritual experience would have freaked me out lol. Would you say that some of the hypochondria was 'seeded' through the worry/anxiety of the unconsciously perceived mommapoppa dynamic? You don't have to answer if you don't want. Just curious since we talk about conditioning a lot. I've thought about it over the years...it seems to be true that kids often carry their parent's suppressed anxieties and beliefs, and as my parents got old and sick, and their ability to 'mask' lessened, I noted some of my own patterns become obvious in my parents, and my Dad certainly got a bit obsessive in a hypochondriac way as he got older. It seemed a strange pattern even as a child, because in many regards, I had no fear of death e.g I went on all the biggest rollercoasters, was fearless in the ocean, I was flying across the Atlantic without parents by the time I was 10. But at the heart of the hypochondriac was the anxiety that there was something 'wrong' with me. I would ask the question over and over again...'is there something wrong with me'. My opinion is that, in a way, it was my intuitive sense of the existential crisis that humans live with...the sense of separation, the sense of disconnect from 'God' etc. I couldn't intelligently clarify the problem, I only knew that there was something 'not right', and this showed up in a neurotic way. |
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Post by andrew on Jul 26, 2022 9:38:53 GMT -5
I see. Not sure if this question works for you but... if awareness is 'unquestionable' and the object/appearance is 'questionable', what category would consciousness go in? But the object isn't questionable because it appears! You are consciousness so that is not questionable either. My question wasn't the right one to ask for you. Maybe this way....what is experienced/perceived is (at least in part), subjective. What you call 'awareness' is beyond the subjective-objective duality. I'm wondering if consciousness is also (at least in part), subjective, or if it beyond the subjective-objective duality. That still may not work for you, but no problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2022 9:43:17 GMT -5
Now I understand why peyote has become an endangered plant in some states. apparently mushrooms grow in cow poop overnight. I've looked, but sadly only found the poop. maybe tomorrow  |
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Post by sree on Jul 26, 2022 9:43:54 GMT -5
Yup. This bear attacking the mirror. It is me attacking you.
Do you see how this is related to what Krishna said to Arjuna? No, I don't. Is that the Gita? I tried to read that once. I got bored with all the stuff the guy in the chariot was wrestling with. I am an American. I don't pussyfoot around. I send in the calvary and sort things out. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 26, 2022 9:46:32 GMT -5
But the object isn't questionable because it appears! You are consciousness so that is not questionable either. My question wasn't the right one to ask for you. Maybe this way....what is experienced/perceived is (at least in part), subjective. What you call 'awareness' is beyond the subjective-objective duality. I'm wondering if consciousness is also (at least in part), subjective, or if it beyond the subjective-objective duality. That still may not work for you, but no problem. That's brilliant andrew. I'd say 'we' are inherently subjective. I think satch will undoubtedly agree. But I won't parse everything (here, therein). |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 26, 2022 9:52:28 GMT -5
What's so special about human consciousness? Human consciousness is more able than squirrel consciousness is gathering nuts and storing them. Human consciousness can do a lot of fun things after scarfing down nuts for dinner. It is the bad things that human consciousness do that I want stopped. That's almost a worthy life task. But I understand that it is impossible. But I also don't give advice or tell people how to live. |
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Post by someNOTHING! on Jul 26, 2022 9:56:49 GMT -5
Would you say that some of the hypochondria was 'seeded' through the worry/anxiety of the unconsciously perceived mommapoppa dynamic? You don't have to answer if you don't want. Just curious since we talk about conditioning a lot. I've thought about it over the years...it seems to be true that kids often carry their parent's suppressed anxieties and beliefs, and as my parents got old and sick, and their ability to 'mask' lessened, I noted some of my own patterns become obvious in my parents, and my Dad certainly got a bit obsessive in a hypochondriac way as he got older. It seemed a strange pattern even as a child, because in many regards, I had no fear of death e.g I went on all the biggest rollercoasters, was fearless in the ocean, I was flying across the Atlantic without parents by the time I was 10. But at the heart of the hypochondriac was the anxiety that there was something 'wrong' with me. I would ask the question over and over again...'is there something wrong with me'. My opinion is that, in a way, it was my intuitive sense of the existential crisis that humans live with...the sense of separation, the sense of disconnect from 'God' etc. I couldn't intelligently clarify the problem, I only knew that there was something 'not right', and this showed up in a neurotic way. I would posit to say that this might even be a universal doubt near the heart. I know I had the exact same anxieties tied to self. I think people's judgments of 'others' can often be simple projections of certain hidden insecurities/animosities that spring from this dynamic of unexamined conditioning. It might be that some/many of them do lead back to the mom-n-pop twin pillars of our worldly stories. Interestingly, it can pop its head up in convos on status and the like. We try to forget those doubts/insecurities and/or control our animosities, yet they persist until they're resolved. And, for whatever reason, attempting to outrun them in pursuit of fortunes, fame, and worldly power never resolves it. Fascinating stuff. -Tomorrow- |
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Post by sree on Jul 26, 2022 10:11:25 GMT -5
satch Avatar yesterday at 3:28am satch said: So a tree that's felled in the forest does make a noise if you're not there? Regarding the falling tree. What if I said, instead of not-knowing, from the personal perspective it can be said that it actually doesn't make a sound, but that is merely to say not in a 'particular' way. Yet there is evidence that points to the fact that at the same time it still does, but merely in the form of 'wave-function'. That way, if you get there after the event there is still momentary particular evidence of it having happened. Which allows for a measure of stability. Ergo, ultimately it neither does nor doesn't. Just musing. This is not musing, it's actual. Did we invent radio waves? No, the phenomenon already-existed, we invented the means to make radio waves (an antenna-transmitter) and receive them, a radio tuner. We I was a kid all we had was "air" TV and 3 channel, ABC, NBC, CBS. Those transmission waves are still transmitted in cities, not everyone can afford cable and high speed internet. You can still buy "rabbit ears", Best Buy, Amazon, and can still tune into the TV "air" broadcast that flows through your house constantly. When a tree falls in the forest, it doesn't make a sound, it sets up vibrations in the air. The vibrations are just vibrations in the atmosphere, until they are received by an ear. New example, If a tree falls in outer space does it make a sound? No. It can't even make sound vibrations, no air. Sound is a perceived sensation. Don't let thought muck it all up. Just attend to that sensation. In that attention, there is only sound. No air, no ear, no listener.
But if you want to be a smart ass self of the west with all that scientific know-how, you stay away from zen. West and East don't go together.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2022 10:14:25 GMT -5
But the object isn't questionable because it appears! You are consciousness so that is not questionable either. My question wasn't the right one to ask for you. Maybe this way....what is experienced/perceived is (at least in part), subjective. What you call 'awareness' is beyond the subjective-objective duality. I'm wondering if consciousness is also (at least in part), subjective, or if it beyond the subjective-objective duality. That still may not work for you, but no problem. What answer would work for you? 😃 |
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Post by sree on Jul 26, 2022 10:22:47 GMT -5
This is not musing, it's actual. Did we invent radio waves? No, the phenomenon already-existed, we invented the means to make radio waves (an antenna-transmitter) and receive them, a radio tuner. We I was a kid all we had was "air" TV and 3 channel, ABC, NBC, CBS. Those transmission waves are still transmitted in cities, not everyone can afford cable and high speed internet. You can still buy "rabbit ears", Best Buy, Amazon, and can still tune into the TV "air" broadcast that flows through your house constantly. When a tree falls in the forest, it doesn't make a sound, it sets up vibrations in the air. The vibrations are just vibrations in the atmosphere, until they are received by an ear. New example, If a tree falls in outer space does it make a sound? No. It can't even make sound vibrations, no air. You're just playing with the definition of "sound". How do you define sound but as "vibrations in the air"? The question still comes down to "what hears the sound?". Stop thinking about it. And you were playing with the gieger counter. Why can't he play with air? Air rocks the ear drum, the scientist says.
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Post by laughter on Jul 26, 2022 10:39:32 GMT -5
I'm inclined to express the notion that, as is often the case, "Reefs is right" (but I will take it further): both form and emptiness are misconceptions .. and yet, the heart remains.  What heart? The Tin Man has no heart. We are Tin Men. A Tin Man is an individuated consciousness, a self created by thought.
The self is selfish. It can't be anything else. Trying not to be selfish is so lame. What a goddam fake.
Krishnamurti said that love is when the self is not. The "no self" state is an idea of zen.
Thus, the Tin Man aspires to become the Zen Man.
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Post by laughter on Jul 26, 2022 10:41:19 GMT -5
That's Schrodinger's cat in a different form. And complete TMT btw. Heisenberg's solution was that yes, the tree made a sound, and it was the entire Universe that heard it. He meant that in a very literal way, and he used a geiger counter instead of a tree. So he echoed a facet of Bohm's idea of implicate order, but Werner rejected the idea of "hidden variables". It took 25 years and Bell to prove that intuition correct. , where does that geiger counter resides? TMT 'bout something I never said. |
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(see what I did there?) 
