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Death
Aug 8, 2022 11:01:43 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 8, 2022 11:01:43 GMT -5
But with that in mind. Firstly, I'm saying I recognise and accept that those egoic patterns are still playing out here, but that because I'm conscious of the fact, therefore I'm not deluded about that. Secondly, I'm saying that you are misguided in your assertion that it's not happening there, when it's evident enough that it still is. Which I consider to be the case with you both because I can see it clearly enough as it happens, and because the criteria I deem for it not being so, hasn't been met. What I mean by that last part is that, even superficially, I consider your(s and mine) very lifestyle (the current system itself), isn't really conducive to fully no-selfing. But rather it is conducive to the continued reinforcement of egoic/self-referential patterning, however subtly. Even though you think you've opted out. I know other folks will have different opinions about all that. And it's true there are realisations that will largely undermine that situation. But in the biggest picture there's deeper ramifications to that sort of continued action we are talking about here, the 'engagement with the patterns' I mean. You have made an important observation about "the current system" reinforcing the way of the self in daily life. I drive a car on highways the way a self does. I use a handphone. I use a computer and talk to you thru the internet. I TALK TO YOU! One self to another. Are all these the "egoic patterns" you recognize? I assure you there are tons of other patterns that would profile me as a regular digit in the human world. Based on that observation, you conclude that I am a self, a psychological entity just as you are. How do you know I am not acting the part? When I am not "on stage", the self vanishes. It happens. Is it the same for you?
If your self had vanished you wouldn't feel the need to state it, nothing is accomplished by stating it. You've just put a target on your back. The purpose of acting would be to protect the body (not the small s self, as there would be nothing to protect). If you state, I'm acting, you negate the value of acting. There is only one conclusion one can make. But a person without a self has compassion for everyone. You just have a nasty tongue. |
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 11:11:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2022 11:11:29 GMT -5
You have made an important observation about "the current system" reinforcing the way of the self in daily life. I drive a car on highways the way a self does. I use a handphone. I use a computer and talk to you thru the internet. I TALK TO YOU! One self to another. Are all these the "egoic patterns" you recognize? I assure you there are tons of other patterns that would profile me as a regular digit in the human world. Based on that observation, you conclude that I am a self, a psychological entity just as you are. How do you know I am not acting the part? When I am not "on stage", the self vanishes. It happens. Is it the same for you?
If your self had vanished you wouldn't feel the need to state it, nothing is accomplished by stating it. You've just put a target on your back. The purpose of acting would be to protect the body (not the small s self, as there is nothing to protect). If you state, I'm acting, you negate the value of acting. There is only one conclusion one can make. what back?  |
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 11:18:40 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 8, 2022 11:18:40 GMT -5
I prefer not to talk about Islam. It's too dangerous. Why is it dangerous? If Islam's shares a perennial philosophy that runs through Zen or the I Ching, lay it out.
I don't think you are familiar with the teaching of Islam.
It isn't helpful when you refute my statement about the unique way each of the world religion reaches out to us and won't explain why you do that.
A tiny minority give Islam a bad name, the militants, they misunderstand Islam, take as literal what has a deeper meaning. What's common to Islam (Sufism) and the I Ching (Taoism)? The sage. I was watching a new TV program this weekend (new to me). A Kurd in Edinburgh exchanges sayings with a detective. The Kurd, we say, It's better to conquer self than to conquer the world. |
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 11:21:21 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 8, 2022 11:21:21 GMT -5
If your self had vanished you wouldn't feel the need to state it, nothing is accomplished by stating it. You've just put a target on your back. The purpose of acting would be to protect the body (not the small s self, as there is nothing to protect). If you state, I'm acting, you negate the value of acting. There is only one conclusion one can make. what back? You are thinking like a white man, farmer. Life is more than nuts and bolts. Our members here are all messing around with eastern spiritual concepts.
"Target on your back" is a figure of speech. Even a white guy can grasp that. Farm life can dial down the mind a notch below duh.
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 11:29:08 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2022 11:29:08 GMT -5
what back? You are thinking like a white man, farmer. Life is more than nuts and bolts. Our members here are all messing around with eastern spiritual concepts. "Target on your back" is a figure of speech. Even a white guy can grasp that. Farm life can dial down the mind a notch below duh.
ok, I might have misjudged you earlier. it's entirely possible you could be entertaining and it's like the wind blowing thru a reeds thingy.. you wouldn't understand  |
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Post by sree on Aug 8, 2022 11:34:56 GMT -5
Why is it dangerous? If Islam's shares a perennial philosophy that runs through Zen or the I Ching, lay it out.
I don't think you are familiar with the teaching of Islam.
It isn't helpful when you refute my statement about the unique way each of the world religion reaches out to us and won't explain why you do that.
A tiny minority give Islam a bad name, the militants, they misunderstand Islam, take as literal what has a deeper meaning. What's common to Islam (Sufism) and the I Ching (Taoism)? The sage. I was watching a new TV program this weekend (new to me). A Kurd in Edinburgh exchanges sayings with a detective. The Kurd, we say, It's better to conquer self than to conquer the world. I agree. Those three wise men on camels following the star to Bethlehem were from lands now populated by Muslims. I have lived among Malays in a kampong (village). They are a gentle people, and I must say that their Islamic way of life is quite idyllic.
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 11:43:49 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 8, 2022 11:43:49 GMT -5
It's hard to quantify but the short answer is intuitively, and in conjunction with 'ye shall know them by their fruits'. The enlightened don't do a lot of acting. So I'm talking about a process of discernment. Additionally, in the context that we are using the phrase self, it doesn't really vanish in those moments but persists in the form of subtle unmanifest latent tendencies. To some extent they still underpin and colour the mind-body expression itself even then. And when you whir back into action, those aspects that are latent when you're off stage will come back into play. I mean, you'll still be a bit of an ass, or not as the case may be. Depending on the nature of the predispositions in question, together with the conditions for them becoming manifest being met. So, you - a self - know what the enlightened does and does not do? Seems to me that the enlightened, to you, is just a self who doesn't lie or cheat or put on an act to fool other selves. This is a pretty straightforward western ethic that many selves try to live by. And if they don't violate any ethical standard approved by you, they could qualify as enlightened. Am I getting warm?
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 11:48:41 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Aug 8, 2022 11:48:41 GMT -5
I prefer not to talk about Islam. It's too dangerous. Why is it dangerous? If Islam's shares a perennial philosophy that runs through Zen or the I Ching, lay it out.
I don't think you are familiar with the teaching of Islam.
It isn't helpful when you refute my statement about the unique way each of the world religion reaches out to us and won't explain why you do that.
Tbh, I have little interest in religion, and your cup seems pretty full on the matter anyway. Feel free to disregard my previous comments about that. |
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 11:49:35 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Aug 8, 2022 11:49:35 GMT -5
Agreed. I've been trying to explain that I'll be the judge of that. We are all judges of what is right or wrong, good or bad, true or false. This is our western cultural ethic of individualism and right to self-determination. I have pointed out that this selfish western approach to spirituality cancels the teaching of all the world religions of the East. The very idea of God, one Truth, or the Way is an abomination to the western mind. I'm not sure what all that's got to do with this notion of yours that I should be talking anything you say about yourself at face value. I mean, how long would I last in this dog-eat-dog world if I actually started doing that. |
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 11:53:07 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Aug 8, 2022 11:53:07 GMT -5
Why is it dangerous? If Islam's shares a perennial philosophy that runs through Zen or the I Ching, lay it out.
I don't think you are familiar with the teaching of Islam.
It isn't helpful when you refute my statement about the unique way each of the world religion reaches out to us and won't explain why you do that.
A tiny minority give Islam a bad name, the militants, they misunderstand Islam, take as literal what has a deeper meaning. What's common to Islam (Sufism) and the I Ching (Taoism)? The sage. I was watching a new TV program this weekend (new to me). A Kurd in Edinburgh exchanges sayings with a detective. The Kurd, we say, It's better to conquer self than to conquer the world. That would be the tiny minority that say, if you don't believe what I deem you should believe, I'm going to have to kill you. Or if you offer an opinion that I perceive disparages or denigrates certain aspects or figures asscoiated with my own beliefs ... likewise. It's true that it's a minority, relaitevely speaking. But even so. You'll understand my reluctance to share my unfettered views. |
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 11:56:44 GMT -5
Post by ouroboros on Aug 8, 2022 11:56:44 GMT -5
It's hard to quantify but the short answer is intuitively, and in conjunction with 'ye shall know them by their fruits'. The enlightened don't do a lot of acting. So I'm talking about a process of discernment. Additionally, in the context that we are using the phrase self, it doesn't really vanish in those moments but persists in the form of subtle unmanifest latent tendencies. To some extent they still underpin and colour the mind-body expression itself even then. And when you whir back into action, those aspects that are latent when you're off stage will come back into play. I mean, you'll still be a bit of an ass, or not as the case may be. Depending on the nature of the predispositions in question, together with the conditions for them becoming manifest being met. So, you - a self - know what the enlightened does and does not do? Seems to me that the enlightened, to you, is just a self who doesn't lie or cheat or put on an act to fool other selves. This is a pretty straightforward western ethic that many selves try to live by. And if they don't violate any ethical standard approved by you, they could qualify as enlightened. Am I getting warm?
I wouldn't turn the thermostat down just yet. |
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 12:03:22 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 8, 2022 12:03:22 GMT -5
You have made an important observation about "the current system" reinforcing the way of the self in daily life. I drive a car on highways the way a self does. I use a handphone. I use a computer and talk to you thru the internet. I TALK TO YOU! One self to another. Are all these the "egoic patterns" you recognize? I assure you there are tons of other patterns that would profile me as a regular digit in the human world. Based on that observation, you conclude that I am a self, a psychological entity just as you are. How do you know I am not acting the part? When I am not "on stage", the self vanishes. It happens. Is it the same for you?
nothing is accomplished by stating it. You've just put a target on your back. The purpose of acting would be to protect the body (not the small s self, as there would be nothing to protect). If you state, I'm acting, you negate the value of acting. There is only one conclusion one can make. But a person without a self has compassion for everyone. You just have a nasty tongue. You are another ouroboros. You presume to know. Don't you ever inquire into what I have said? Why jump to the conclusion that I am being preposterous?
What does it mean when I said "the self vanishes"? You impulsively reacted to that statement. Are you able to frame an intelligent question in response to take me out?
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Post by ouroboros on Aug 8, 2022 12:10:02 GMT -5
If your self had vanished you wouldn't feel the need to state it, nothing is accomplished by stating it. You've just put a target on your back. The purpose of acting would be to protect the body (not the small s self, as there would be nothing to protect). If you state, I'm acting, you negate the value of acting. There is only one conclusion one can make. But a person without a self has compassion for everyone. You just have a nasty tongue. You are another ouroboros. You presume to know. Don't you ever inquire into what I have said? Why jump to the conclusion that I am being preposterous?
What does it mean when I said "the self vanishes"? You impulsively reacted to that statement. Are you able to frame an intelligent question in response to take me out?
Preposterous is a great word. You keep using it. |
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 12:10:03 GMT -5
Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 8, 2022 12:10:03 GMT -5
If your self had vanished you wouldn't feel the need to state it, nothing is accomplished by stating it. You've just put a target on your back. The purpose of acting would be to protect the body (not the small s self, as there would be nothing to protect). If you state, I'm acting, you negate the value of acting. There is only one conclusion one can make. But a person without a self has compassion for everyone. You just have a nasty tongue. You are another ouroboros. You presume to know. Don't you ever inquire into what I have said? Why jump to the conclusion that I am being preposterous?
What does it mean when I said "the self vanishes"? You impulsively reacted to that statement. Are you able to frame an intelligent question in response to take me out?
No, I have really lost interest. I know what it means for self to vanish, I don't need to ask you. I still don't know what you are up to here on ST's forum. Everything is a cost-benefit analysis. |
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Death
Aug 8, 2022 12:18:21 GMT -5
Post by sree on Aug 8, 2022 12:18:21 GMT -5
A tiny minority give Islam a bad name, the militants, they misunderstand Islam, take as literal what has a deeper meaning. What's common to Islam (Sufism) and the I Ching (Taoism)? The sage. I was watching a new TV program this weekend (new to me). A Kurd in Edinburgh exchanges sayings with a detective. The Kurd, we say, It's better to conquer self than to conquer the world. Or if you offer an opinion that I perceive disparages or denigrates certain aspects or figures asscoiated with my own beliefs ... likewise. It's true that it's a minority, relaitevely speaking. But even so. It's not a minority in the west. Since the end of WW2, the entire western world has been supporting and fighting wars in the Middle-East, South-East Asia, Africa, South America, and God knows where else, in the name of protecting freedom and democracy. We are still smarting from a tangle with Russia as we take a jab at China. It a good thing that we are cowards at defending our fake values.
Spirituality is a vital aspect of human nature. You won't be able to corrupt this connection.
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