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Post by circussmith on Feb 2, 2010 11:42:40 GMT -5
Hello all. I thought I would just briefly introduce myself.
i suppose it is important for me to point out that my top priority, when it comes to spiritual development is practicality. I do not spend much time reading about various methods, or poetry or musings etc. I certainly have read a lot of books on such teachings, but mostly that was quite a while ago and they focused primarily on a few areas. Primarily I suppose on teachings by Gurdjieff, certain kabalistic teachings, a few things on Tarot and so on.
As i said, that was quite a while ago. I have spent the last 25 years or so, actually practicing certain methods and really reading about others. Again, my priority is practicality. I don't discount the writings of others, I just don't, personally, find them particularly useful.
I guess I would say I approach the Work as a science. Or perhaps career would be a better word.
I point this out, not to claim any great insight, but rather to explain why I may not have the same terminology as some others here. I will expand a bit on that in part 2.
I would like to quote on of the great spiritual thinkers of modern times (see if you can guess who it is), just for fun.
matter is energy. In the universe, there are many energy fields which we cannot normally perceive. Some energies have a spiritual source which act upon a person's soul. However, this soul does not exist ab initio, as orthodox Christianity teaches. It has to be brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation. However, this is rarely achieved, owing to man's unique ability to be distracted from spiritual matters by everyday trivia.
I am interested in any discussions that involve any practical applications. Anything that actually helps us take that one or two steps closer to awakening our machine.
Thank you for this opportunity
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Post by Portto on Feb 2, 2010 12:25:24 GMT -5
I am interested in any discussions that involve any practical applications. Anything that actually helps us take that one or two steps closer to awakening our machine. That's certainly interesting! What do you mean by "our machine?" Is it the body or mind or a combination? In what way do you feel it's yours? |
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Post by circussmith on Feb 2, 2010 13:33:41 GMT -5
That's certainly interesting! What do you mean by "our machine?" Is it the body or mind or a combination? In what way do you feel it's yours? this is the termonology I am familiar with and it comes, primarily, from Gurdjieff. Basically machine is body and mind. It can easily be said to extend beyond that but that is really what I was referring to. The question about ownership is a good one. I used the term our machine more for convenience than anything else. Is it really ours? I don't know exactly. The machine is that thing which we call me. It is both a prison, and a path. By that I mean, beingness is trapped within this machine, so, prison. But if we accept that we are here for a purpose (personally I do believe that) than we must also accept the this particular machine has been chosen for a purpose. Which, it seems to me, leads us to the conclusion that dealing with all of the glitches, imperfections, identifications etc. of this machine is a part of that purpose. The best way to start this process, I would think, is to get to know the machine. This can be done through the process of self-observation. Simply observe the machine. Be aware of its (your) reactions, motives, postures, tensions, habits, and so on. You don't judge them, no machine is better than another, you just observe. You try not to even care what it is doing. Imagine you were a scientist, an anthropologist, whose job it is to learn everything you can about this particular creature. You don't care what it does, you just observe. That's really the best way to start, I think. Sorry, I tend to ramble on. What was your question? |
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Post by Portto on Feb 2, 2010 18:35:25 GMT -5
You answered the question very well.
So, you are looking for practical ways to awaken the body+mind (machine).
There could be two issues:
1. Does the whole body/mind awaken as a single unit, or only certain part(s) awaken?
2. You are saying that beingness is trapped in the "machine". What makes you say that? How do you know beingness is trapped? How do you experience this trapping?
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Post by circussmith on Feb 2, 2010 19:49:54 GMT -5
I believe it does awaken as a unit.
As for beingness, well, trapped may not be exactly the right term but I think it might be close enough for discussion.
I have come to that conclusion based on observation. I have spent years practicing self observation so have come to know my machine (body, personality, habits, mind and so on) pretty well. One of the things I have noticed is that in nearly every case I can trace back a reaction to a particular habit, or set of habits. You can actually see the machine in action in that it is very much like an actual machine. Throw this switch and this light will come on. Push this button and this sequence of events will happen.
After enough such observation you begin to notice that everything is really a part of some program, some tracable mechanical reaction. At that point it seems evident that no one is actually driving this train. It is simply a machine responding to certain stimuli.
If we take it as a given (at least for the moment) that there is this beingness residing in our metaphorical train than it seems to me that it's obviously not driving.
Ergo, it is trapped. Again, perhaps not the best term. Let's just say that it is, at that point, simply along for the ride.
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Post by Portto on Feb 2, 2010 20:02:21 GMT -5
You seem to be very well in touch with the "machine" indeed.  I believe it does awaken as a unit. So, would you say that the fingers become enlightened, since they are part of the unit? Or the hair (etc.)? Let's just say that it is, at that point, simply along for the ride. As Zendancer mentioned in many posts, it is better to avoid assumptions. Do you experience "beingness" as along for the ride - as something additional to the body/mind? Or are you just assuming that beingness is something different than the body/mind? everything is really a part of some program, some tracable mechanical reaction How far back can you trace it? Where is the beginning? |
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Post by circussmith on Feb 2, 2010 21:26:29 GMT -5
All excellent questions.
So, would you say that the fingers become enlightened, since they are part of the unit? Or the hair (etc.)?
I didn't say enlightened, I said awakened. I think the machine, as a whole, becomes awake.
As Zendancer mentioned in many posts, it is better to avoid assumptions.
Do you experience "beingness" as along for the ride - as something additional to the body/mind?
Or are you just assuming that beingness is something different than the body/mind?
I try to avoid assumptions as best I can. As I said, through careful observation of the machine, I see that it has no driver, no one actually at the controls. So it is my conclusion that beingness is along for the ride. It is my assumption that it is there at all I suppose.
Yes, I do see it as something very different than the body/mind, machine etc.
I believe (I claim no authority to know this as a fact) there is basically Beingness. A "part" of this overall beingness resides (looks through, is encapsalated by etc) in each of us. In and of itself it is not truly seperate from that overall Beingness. I have heard it described as looking at your fingers and thinking that they are completely seperate things, not at all connected. When in fact, if we look closer, we see that the fingers are a part of the hand. This is a rough analogy, but it somehow makes sense to me.
So you have beingness. Everything else, everything you can touch, hear, feel, lick, think, hold, kiss, so on and so on, is part of the illusion that some have called the machine.
How far back can you trace it? Where is the beginning?
This depends on the program. I am not particularly interested in what created the habit, at least not in general, but more, how it works. What are the sequence of events this button sets into motion. That is what I find more useful.
I have traced very complex reactions back to habits that developed while I was still in diapers.
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Post by karen on Feb 2, 2010 23:18:57 GMT -5
Welcome aboard!
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Post by circussmith on Feb 2, 2010 23:43:23 GMT -5
Thank you Karen
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Post by lightmystic on Feb 3, 2010 11:25:15 GMT -5
Greetings circussmith, Great to have you on the board. It sounds like your approach to seeking was very much like mine in that whatever works best in the moment is what's important, and everything else can be discarded for the time being. And works means getting freer at a rate that we are happy with. If it's not a rate that we are happy with, then we have to find something else that works better. Because, if it's not getting us noticeably freer over time, then what good is any technique/understanding/thing? To that end, I thought I might poke you a bit, but only if that would be enjoyable for you. So, experimentally, here's the first poke below: First poke: and this is a sincere question: how do you know you are trapped? Again, I'm actually asking, I don't know what the "right" answer is. Hello all. I thought I would just briefly introduce myself. i suppose it is important for me to point out that my top priority, when it comes to spiritual development is practicality. I do not spend much time reading about various methods, or poetry or musings etc. I certainly have read a lot of books on such teachings, but mostly that was quite a while ago and they focused primarily on a few areas. Primarily I suppose on teachings by Gurdjieff, certain kabalistic teachings, a few things on Tarot and so on. As i said, that was quite a while ago. I have spent the last 25 years or so, actually practicing certain methods and really reading about others. Again, my priority is practicality. I don't discount the writings of others, I just don't, personally, find them particularly useful. I guess I would say I approach the Work as a science. Or perhaps career would be a better word. I point this out, not to claim any great insight, but rather to explain why I may not have the same terminology as some others here. I will expand a bit on that in part 2. I would like to quote on of the great spiritual thinkers of modern times (see if you can guess who it is), just for fun. matter is energy. In the universe, there are many energy fields which we cannot normally perceive. Some energies have a spiritual source which act upon a person's soul. However, this soul does not exist ab initio, as orthodox Christianity teaches. It has to be brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation. However, this is rarely achieved, owing to man's unique ability to be distracted from spiritual matters by everyday trivia. I am interested in any discussions that involve any practical applications. Anything that actually helps us take that one or two steps closer to awakening our machine. Thank you for this opportunity |
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Post by circussmith on Feb 3, 2010 15:34:43 GMT -5
To that end, I thought I might poke you a bit, but only if that would be enjoyable for you. So, experimentally, here's the first poke below: First poke: and this is a sincere question: how do you know you are trapped? Again, I'm actually asking, I don't know what the "right" answer is. [/quote] Thank you. As I said earlier, trapped might not be the right word. Along for the ride might be a better way to phrase it. I don't "know" that being is there at all. I believe it is. If it is then my conclusion, based pretty much on deductive reasoning, is that it is not controlling the vast, vast majority of our actions. Doesn't comprise any part of our personality. I have observed, and continue to do so, how my body, mind, personality reacts to the world around me. I have noted that these reactions are based on habits. Some habits are obvious, some much more subtle. With time and effort though we can begin to see nearly everything we think, do, say, feel or whatever, is simply the end result of such a habit. Based on that observation I see that, generally speaking, no one is driving this train. If I take it as a given that there is this spark of Absolute in each of us that I call beingness (and I do take that as a given) then I can only conclude that since it is not driving, it is along for the ride. Now, having said all of that, I don't believe that has to remain the case. I believe there are things we can do about it. |
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Post by klaus on Feb 3, 2010 19:08:40 GMT -5
Hi circussmith,
Welcome to the fourm.
Isn't the One Being manifesting in myriad forms, that of the machine as one example? If there is any practical purpose for the machine-it may not have any purpose at all-it is as a mechanism to realize that state of One Being which is the condition of the existence of the myriad forms.
So to say that Being is trapped, imprisoned is putting the cart before the horse, since Being manifesting in myriad forms is doing so in absolute freedom of Being-without cause.
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Post by karen on Feb 3, 2010 22:38:15 GMT -5
I don't know about being free or trapped. I do know I feel trapped in this body. That's what it feels like to me, and that is 100% true.
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Post by lightmystic on Feb 4, 2010 11:08:44 GMT -5
Hey circussmith, Thanks for your response. I must ask: why do you believe these things? (sincere question, not that you should or shouldn't) And also, if you don't mind, I would very much enjoy hearing your direct experience. What is the driving force behind your seeking? To that end, I thought I might poke you a bit, but only if that would be enjoyable for you. So, experimentally, here's the first poke below: First poke: and this is a sincere question: how do you know you are trapped? Again, I'm actually asking, I don't know what the "right" answer is. Thank you. As I said earlier, trapped might not be the right word. Along for the ride might be a better way to phrase it. I don't "know" that being is there at all. I believe it is. If it is then my conclusion, based pretty much on deductive reasoning, is that it is not controlling the vast, vast majority of our actions. Doesn't comprise any part of our personality. I have observed, and continue to do so, how my body, mind, personality reacts to the world around me. I have noted that these reactions are based on habits. Some habits are obvious, some much more subtle. With time and effort though we can begin to see nearly everything we think, do, say, feel or whatever, is simply the end result of such a habit. Based on that observation I see that, generally speaking, no one is driving this train. If I take it as a given that there is this spark of Absolute in each of us that I call beingness (and I do take that as a given) then I can only conclude that since it is not driving, it is along for the ride. Now, having said all of that, I don't believe that has to remain the case. I believe there are things we can do about it. [/quote] |
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Post by circussmith on Feb 4, 2010 11:57:12 GMT -5
I don't know about being free or trapped. I do know I feel trapped in this body. That's what it feels like to me, and that is 100% true. I know what you mean. Which begs the question. or at least a question that made sense to me, if I were actually trapped, what would be the first thing I would want to do? It seems to me, I would want to know as much as possible about my prison. |
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