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Post by circussmith on Feb 4, 2010 12:02:42 GMT -5
Hi circussmith, Welcome to the fourm. Isn't the One Being manifesting in myriad forms, that of the machine as one example? If there is any practical purpose for the machine-it may not have any purpose at all-it is as a mechanism to realize that state of One Being which is the condition of the existence of the myriad forms. So to say that Being is trapped, imprisoned is putting the cart before the horse, since Being manifesting in myriad forms is doing so in absolute freedom of Being-without cause. It makes no sense to me that the world around us has no purpose. I agree that the machine is a mechanism for getting us closer to the Higher. I think that is exactly is purpose. However I have seen nothing to indicate a sleeping machine has any such access. Which is why I think we need to awaken the machine, and the best way I have found to do that begins with self observation. |
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Post by souley on Feb 6, 2010 17:48:56 GMT -5
I would say that purpose is an intellectual invention, you can't say if there is purpose or not, since it is just an idea and has no reality. And I don't know how to communicate this in any good way.. But purpose is not needed, as in, the concept of purpose is not needed. To say that we lack purpose is as false and true as that there is a purpose, since the whole concept of purpose is just an idea.
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Post by karen on Feb 7, 2010 2:41:29 GMT -5
Doesn't purpose imply someone to assign roles?
One asks: "what is the purpose to life?" Does life need purpose? Or does purpose need life just to pass go?
Does life have purpose? It's the ultimate cart before the horse assumption.
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Post by klaus on Feb 9, 2010 17:26:20 GMT -5
Hi circussmith,
Sorry for the late reply.
Self observation I believe, can lead the machine to a crisis situation; a point where the machine realises it's own limited nature, that it cannot awaken to the Higher by it's own effort, because the machine's attention is only on itself and not the source condition of it's existence, which is the Higher.
Once brought to the realisation that the machine cannot awaken itself a condition of freedom is created freeing attention from the self to the Higher and realising it's true nature.
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Post by zendancer on Feb 9, 2010 22:48:57 GMT -5
Circus: When I first realized that I was imprisoned, I had no interest in staying in prison any longer than necessary. I only wanted to get free. To use the Buddha's example, if someone shoots you with an arrow, don't waste time studying the arrow or investigating where it came from; pull it out!
In fact, the mind is what makes us think that we exist as separate entities, and the mind is what makes us think we are imprisoned. Thinking about thinking is a waste of time and will only prolong the length of our apparent imprisonment. Stop thinking (put it all down), be still (get silent), stay still (look and listen without reflection), and the truth will appear. The illusion will then evaporate. The machine and the operator of the machine are one. There are not two here.
(In reality there's not even one, but let's save that joke for another day. LOL)
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Post by karen on Feb 10, 2010 2:03:32 GMT -5
But ZD, in years past, "putting it down" to me would have meant accepting what I now call "place assumptions" - underlying assumptions about how the world is - not accepting what is. And then this "place assumption" felt like an underlying anxiety that kept nipping at me about waist level at all times.
Gangaji's message of "stop" seemed to bring more discouragement to me than "progress" back in the day.
And now when I put it down as you say, stuff rushes in that must be dealt with - at the very least by putting it down piece by piece.
What are your thoughts on this?
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Post by zendancer on Feb 10, 2010 10:19:28 GMT -5
Karen: "Putting it all down" just means letting go of all ideas so that one can interact with the world directly. If we let go of all ideas, then we are also letting go of all assumptions. We enter a state of not-knowing. In this not-knowing there is neither acceptance nor rejection of anything. There is "just this"--whatever is happening in the present moment.
Gangaji's "stop" is saying the same thing in a slightly different way. She is saying to cease all efforting and just give up. It is another way of pointing toward a state of radical presence. Many seekers try one thing after another and constantly check to see if anything is working (Am I still here?). This entire process of "trying to get it" is a head trip that keeps us imprisoned in the mind. "Stop" or "put it all down" is saying that the more we "try to get it" the farther we move away from what we're looking for. Our effort, itself, is reinforcing the illusion that there is someone here who, by making a great effort, can do something to get something.
The command to stop is very effective with some people, but not with others. This is why I prefer to say, "keep shifting attention from the internal monologue to what can be seen or heard." Every time we shift to seeing or hearing (or any kind of direct sensory experience) we shift away from the mental habits that create and maintain the illusion of separateness.
Remember, there is no entity who can accept or reject what is. What is is all there is and that is who we are.
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Post by question on Feb 10, 2010 11:04:19 GMT -5
I'm one of those fools who can't just say "stop", I'm like a control freak and so there is often felt a tension, pressure to do things right. "Son, you gotta work real hard to make it in this world!" So I can't even stop, whenever I try, I'm not actually stopping, I just keep on working, trying to stop, but not actually stopping. In a meditation some weeks ago, I've had a moment of clarity when I realized that "It's not necessary to be an I." Maybe it doesn't mean much, but I felt like "Wow, that's so exciting, I don't have to be an I, what a relief! Thank you soo much! Bye bye."  My point is that maybe for workaholics and control freaks it's not so much the trying part that's important, but the allowing part, one has to give oneself permission and one has to receive permission to let go. |
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Post by circussmith on Feb 10, 2010 12:46:04 GMT -5
Hi circussmith, Sorry for the late reply. Self observation I believe, can lead the machine to a crisis situation; a point where the machine realises it's own limited nature, that it cannot awaken to the Higher by it's own effort, because the machine's attention is only on itself and not the source condition of it's existence, which is the Higher. Once brought to the realisation that the machine cannot awaken itself a condition of freedom is created freeing attention from the self to the Higher and realising it's true nature. I agree that the machine cannot awaken itself. I do think the act of self observation tends to jossle the machine, as it were, allowing for other influences, which, as you pointed out come from the higher. Self observation is really only a first step, but it is an important one. It also helps down the road as various habits come up. You can quickly identify them and no that these are only habits. |
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Post by klaus on Feb 11, 2010 21:00:23 GMT -5
circussmith,
I agree it is a first step.
Self observation is still of the machine, it is attention identifying with the machine. Sure you can identify habits of the machine but that only frees you from the habits(hopefully) but your attention is still identifying with the machine.
Can you awaken the machine by identfying habits? After you've identified all your habits what have you got?
A list of habits.
You still have not solved the problem of attention identfying the machine.
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Post by klaus on Feb 11, 2010 22:33:45 GMT -5
That's great, Question!
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