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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2022 12:00:37 GMT -5
For me, laughter is saying, there is the stick, and then there is the carrot. If you are getting beaten by a stick that's suffering. If you're chasing a carrot that's also suffering because you will not be satisfied until you get the carrot. If suffering is the primary driver, then suffering will be the filter through which everything is interpreted. Fortunately, it's possible to find the truth as a result of simple curiosity. And some lucky people find the truth without being driven by either suffering or curiosity. Paul Morgan-Somers is one example--no questioning, no suffering, no curiosity, just.....BAM! Right out of the blue, and that doesn't fit any model of how such a thing might happen.
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Post by sree on Sept 2, 2022 12:03:46 GMT -5
Forget your answer. I will give you mine. Just because you are all dead wrong, it doesn't make me right. As I had pointed out, everyone of you is another me. I am talking to myselves here. It's like playing tennis with myself. I have to beat everyone, returning all your shots to hone my skill. Give me your best shot, man.
I just realized that I don't know what you think we are all dead wrong about. We don't even agree with each other...our spiritualities are somewhat varied. I guess the only thing that unites us is a belief that 'the material universe' is not the basis of existence/life. Some might speak of Consciousness as the basis, some might speak of God, or Awareness, or some might just prefer to speak of this 'basis' a bit more nebulously. Is it this that you think we are wrong about? The whole academic world is also debating accepted theories about the material universe. What I think you all (and this includes academia) are wrong is about what we are. Don't you believe you are a human being? It all begins here. You can philosophize all you want but this fundamental belief conditions all inquiry. Don't you accept that you are living on the planet earth seen in video below?
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2022 12:07:14 GMT -5
Basically, Buddhism + Taoism = Zen. (Which is a good thing). There is a strange contradiction here. ZD places a lot of importance on these kenshos or satoris, but mention it to the Zen master and you will get whacked by the Keisaku. That is definitely NOT true in the Rinzai Zen tradition. In fact, the very first Zen teacher I talked to about the kensho event that awakened me to the Absolute replied by saying, "Yes, the same thing happened to me." That event led him to become a Zen monk, and he eventually became a Zen Master. There are many different ways that people awaken to the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:14:27 GMT -5
If you are getting beaten by a stick that's suffering. If you're chasing a carrot that's also suffering because you will not be satisfied until you get the carrot. If suffering is the primary driver, then suffering will be the filter through which everything is interpreted. Fortunately, it's possible to find the truth as a result of simple curiosity. And some lucky people find the truth without being driven by either suffering or curiosity. Paul Morgan-Somers is one example--no questioning, no suffering, no curiosity, just.....BAM! Right out of the blue, and that doesn't fit any model of how such a thing might happen. Before that happened Somers was in a state of suffering. Then everything became Ocean as he is fond of saying. So it came out of the blue as you say and the suffering disappeared. But that's not how awakening usually happens. In his case there was no active seeking so we can't say what was driving his seeking since there was none.
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Post by andrew on Sept 2, 2022 12:16:34 GMT -5
I just realized that I don't know what you think we are all dead wrong about. We don't even agree with each other...our spiritualities are somewhat varied. I guess the only thing that unites us is a belief that 'the material universe' is not the basis of existence/life. Some might speak of Consciousness as the basis, some might speak of God, or Awareness, or some might just prefer to speak of this 'basis' a bit more nebulously. Is it this that you think we are wrong about? The whole academic world is also debating accepted theories about the material universe. What I think you all (and this includes academia) are wrong is about what we are. Don't you believe you are a human being? It all begins here. You can philosophize all you want but this fundamental belief conditions all inquiry. Don't you accept that you are living on the planet earth seen in video below?
That's interesting (and a bit confusing) because I'm very sure that lots of folks here don't believe they are 'human beings living on planet earth'. In fact, I can't think of someone here that does believe that. There may be a context in which folks here consider it appropriate to say that we are not cats, and we are not living on the moon, but folks don't consider that a spiritual context. Have I understood you right? If so, can I ask what has made you think that folks here believe they are human beings living on planet earth?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:29:13 GMT -5
That's interesting (and a bit confusing) because I'm very sure that lots of folks here don't believe they are 'human beings living on planet earth'. Really? Who are these nut jobs who would say such a thing? 😀 Let me set the record straight. I'm a human being living on planet earth BUT I'm also much more than that.
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Post by andrew on Sept 2, 2022 12:31:32 GMT -5
That's interesting (and a bit confusing) because I'm very sure that lots of folks here don't believe they are 'human beings living on planet earth'. Really? Who are these nut jobs who would say such a thing? 😀 Let me set the record straight. I'm a human being living on planet earth BUT I'm also much more than that. I basically said that in my sentence after....I'm assuming Sree thinks that we think that that is all we are.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:33:31 GMT -5
Really? Who are these nut jobs who would say such a thing? 😀 Let me set the record straight. I'm a human being living on planet earth BUT I'm also much more than that. I basically said that in my sentence after....I'm assuming Sree thinks that we think that that is all we are. Okay. I must be on another planet. 😀
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:33:46 GMT -5
Well, some of us who were driven by curiosity did not think that we were searching for some ultimate truth about ourselves. We simply wanted to understand things that we saw that didn't make sense. As one trivial example, in a logic course the instructor explained that good decision making requires listing the pros and cons regarding some decision, and the preponderance of items on one list versus the other list would make it clear which decision to make. I knew, from my own experience, that his assertion was absurd because people frequently choose to do things despite a preponderance of reasons NOT to do those things. It seemed to me that the entire field of logic was floating in mid-air, so to speak, and that there must be something fundamental and unseen underlying it if there were any validity to it. As another example, a physics professor claimed that subatomic particles sometimes move from point A to point B without crossing the space between those two points. What could explain that kind of statement? There was also the observer paradox that permeates all of the scientific disciplines. There were dozens of other issues of a similar nature, but they all led me to intuit that scientists were overlooking something fundamental, but I didn't know what it was. I didn't feel that I was lacking anything other than an explanation that might resolve the paradoxes that I saw. You wrote, "Curiosity isn't suffering." That was my point. I'm well aware that a lot of people searching for the truth are driven by suffering, but that's NOT what drives the search for people whose motivation is solely curiosity. What you are describing here is not the search for liberation. You are talking about the relative field of existence. This is not spirituality. I think every field of endeavor can be a "spiritual" path, and can lead beyond itself. You see the difference in the way people do, or talk about, whatever it is. In the fields he mentioned, like science and philosophy, you see some people approaching it with a kind of "higher appreciation", and they get to the "edges" and toy with paradox. They are seeking to see something on a deeper level, something they are in awe of. I once saw a physics book called the "Mind of God". Eventually they'll probably sense that they don't have the "intellect" to get there, but every step is a step on the way.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2022 12:37:46 GMT -5
What you are describing here is not the search for liberation. You are talking about the relative field of existence. This is not spirituality. I think every field of endeavor can be a "spiritual" path, and can lead beyond itself. You see the difference in the way people do, or talk about, whatever it is. In the fields he mentioned, like science and philosophy, you see some people approaching it with a kind of "higher appreciation", and they get to the "edges" and toy with paradox. They are seeking to see something on a deeper level, something they are in awe of. I once saw a physics book called the "Mind of God". Eventually they'll probably sense that they don't have the "intellect" to get there, but every step is a step on the way. Absolutely!
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2022 12:46:49 GMT -5
If suffering is the primary driver, then suffering will be the filter through which everything is interpreted. Fortunately, it's possible to find the truth as a result of simple curiosity. And some lucky people find the truth without being driven by either suffering or curiosity. Paul Morgan-Somers is one example--no questioning, no suffering, no curiosity, just.....BAM! Right out of the blue, and that doesn't fit any model of how such a thing might happen. Before that happened Somers was in a state of suffering. Then everything became Ocean as he is fond of saying. So it came out of the blue as you say and the suffering disappeared. But that's not how awakening usually happens. In his case there was no active seeking so we can't say what was driving his seeking since there was none. FWIW, in the videos I've seen of Morgan-Somers, he never says anything about any kind of suffering prior to being inundated by "the ocean", to use his words. In fact, he claims that he was a happy teenager looking forward to playing professional soccer. Maybe the Buddhist religion's emphasis upon suffering causes some believers to filter everything through that concept. That's okay, but it's certainly not necessary, and there are lots of people who have awakened who were not driven by suffering. I suspect that the consensus on this forum by people who have found the truth is that there are many different pathways to the truth.
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Post by andrew on Sept 2, 2022 12:49:17 GMT -5
I basically said that in my sentence after....I'm assuming Sree thinks that we think that that is all we are. Okay. I must be on another planet. 😀 I can imagine you hanging out in this cantina (surprisingly hard to find a good image of it)
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Post by andrew on Sept 2, 2022 12:51:40 GMT -5
What you are describing here is not the search for liberation. You are talking about the relative field of existence. This is not spirituality. I think every field of endeavor can be a "spiritual" path, and can lead beyond itself. You see the difference in the way people do, or talk about, whatever it is. In the fields he mentioned, like science and philosophy, you see some people approaching it with a kind of "higher appreciation", and they get to the "edges" and toy with paradox. They are seeking to see something on a deeper level, something they are in awe of. I once saw a physics book called the "Mind of God". Eventually they'll probably sense that they don't have the "intellect" to get there, but every step is a step on the way. Is it possible they sense an emptiness or mundaneness in their lives that pushes them to find this awe?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 12:54:40 GMT -5
What you are describing here is not the search for liberation. You are talking about the relative field of existence. This is not spirituality. I think every field of endeavor can be a "spiritual" path, and can lead beyond itself. You see the difference in the way people do, or talk about, whatever it is. In the fields he mentioned, like science and philosophy, you see some people approaching it with a kind of "higher appreciation", and they get to the "edges" and toy with paradox. They are seeking to see something on a deeper level, something they are in awe of. I once saw a physics book called the "Mind of God". Eventually they'll probably sense that they don't have the "intellect" to get there, but every step is a step on the way. No no no no! 😀 What is the value of seeing deeper into a transient impermanent object? That's just more mind, more perception. You need to get out of the way of mind altogether! Then what remains? You! What you are fundamentally cannot be anything you know no matter how deep or how high the appreciation.
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Post by andrew on Sept 2, 2022 12:56:40 GMT -5
If you are getting beaten by a stick that's suffering. If you're chasing a carrot that's also suffering because you will not be satisfied until you get the carrot. If suffering is the primary driver, then suffering will be the filter through which everything is interpreted. Fortunately, it's possible to find the truth as a result of simple curiosity. And some lucky people find the truth without being driven by either suffering or curiosity. Paul Morgan-Somers is one example--no questioning, no suffering, no curiosity, just.....BAM! Right out of the blue, and that doesn't fit any model of how such a thing might happen. I don't know his story, but that example does illustrate that suffering isn't the driving force behind a transformative event or realization. I'm still inclined to think that 'existential questioning and exploring' is underpinned by suffering, but I also don't want to diminish the role of curiosity in that, and I also don't doubt that this curiosity can be the conscious driving force (as it sounds like it was with you).
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