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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 10:32:02 GMT -5
it doesn't matter what the paths are it's the end result. And there can only be one. That's why it cannot be based on a Kensho experience. Because if you have one such experience then why not 7? Why not 57? When does that end You could go on for ever having more and more kensho experiences. That cannot be liberation which is clear and final, which is peace of mind and the cessation of suffering. There is no doubt about it. There cannot be different interpretations or versions of that. And If you were an unrealized quantum physicist and then attained SR it is likely you would still carry on with your physics pursuits where you experienced insights before and you will experience insights about physics afterwards. But such insights have nothing to do with liberation which is the living reality of being free in the natural state regardless of whatever interests you might have in the relative. According to what Buddha told his disciples, he had one experience that resulted in liberation and freedom. He supposedly told them that after meditating for a certain period of time, he looked up into the morning sky from where he sat and saw the planet Venus. This sensory event triggered realization, and that's a classic kensho event. What's unusual is that the Buddha apparently attained freedom, realization, and permanent liberation as a result of that one event. Most people who have such things happen do not. Nevertheless, I'll drop this issue because you obviously have a deep attachment to the idea that liberation can only happen in one way. Having read hundreds of spiritual biographies and autobiographies of sages, it's clear to me that each human's path to realization is quite unique. You're trying to manufacture the Buddhas considerable meditation time under the Bodhi tree as a kensho event. That's a contrivance. There is nothing in the Buddhist teachings centered around the noble truths and the eightfold path that promotes what you refer to as kensho experiences.
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Post by sree on Sept 2, 2022 10:47:39 GMT -5
No, it is not "non-rational". Also, it was not an actual experience. As I said, it was a sense of permanence that seemed unconnected to the impermanence.
Let's examine why I assert that it is rational. Impermanence is perceivable against a background of permanence. The former cannot materialize without contrasting with the latter. Have you not experienced being in a stationary train and watching, through the window, the other train starting to move only to realize that it is your train that is pulling out of the station? This is how we perceive movement. No object's movement is detectable or measurable in isolation. You read about this in the Tao Te Ching: no up without down, no here without there, no ugliness without beauty, etc.
What do you mean by "the sense of boundaries is somewhat absent"? Boundaries of what? I was walking in a general direction. My focus was not directed at anything in particular. Things were there. The trees, the sidewalk, a chipmunk darting here and there.
That state have immense practical value. By "that state", I mean that sense of unconnectedness. It alters your perception fundamentally and completely. It protects you by putting you out of harm's way. It heightens awareness. It makes you the lead deer instead of being a mindless one that ends up in the tiger's jaw. It comes with a price, though. No going to sleep. Constant awareness.
Are you saying that the practical value of this 'state' or 'sense of unconnectedness' is that it helps you to survive in a dangerous world? Does it make you more alert to threats to your physicality? My view (and experience) is that when rational knowing is strongly dominant in our experience, the trees, the sidewalk, the chipmunks are experienced as objects that seem somewhat disparate, disconnected, lifeless even. When the rational aspect of mind is less dominant, and when non-rational knowing is available, there is a greater connectivity, a seemlessness, a unity even. There are still trees, chipmunks, sidewalks, but they are experienced in a different way. I am not preaching anything here. Let's be clear about this. I am just sharing my viewpoint triggered by your questions as ones coming from "my own mind."
Yes, it definitely affords me protection. The need for protection implies a state of danger. I would rather have no danger and no necessity of protection.
I get what you are alluding to. "non-rational" is not a good word. Reason is the sane framework of cognition; otherwise, we "see things". This not only make crackpots out of us in the so-called spiritual world but also cause political conflicts between people and nations. "When the rational aspect of mind is less dominant", it's a state of perception that is not predominantly informed by (practical) knowledge. Even a hammer loses its form as a tool for hammering nails.
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Post by andrew on Sept 2, 2022 11:00:34 GMT -5
If you mean that suffering drives the interest in spirituality/religion, I would agree. This wouldn't happen if we weren't also curious in our nature, so I take other folks' point that curiosity is central to that interest too. I would say suffering (in its many forms) is the fire that gets our ass moving though. . It makes sense to talk of being curious about things and ideas but it doesn't sound right to say I am curious about avoiding suffering. Wanting to avoid it or make existing suffering go away is a visceral reflex action, it's not someone saying you know I'm really curious about finding a way of not feeling this bad! It's like putting your hand on a hot stove you just recoil from it you don't say I'm really curious about how to stop my hand burning. Yeah.
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Post by andrew on Sept 2, 2022 11:06:12 GMT -5
Are you saying that the practical value of this 'state' or 'sense of unconnectedness' is that it helps you to survive in a dangerous world? Does it make you more alert to threats to your physicality? My view (and experience) is that when rational knowing is strongly dominant in our experience, the trees, the sidewalk, the chipmunks are experienced as objects that seem somewhat disparate, disconnected, lifeless even. When the rational aspect of mind is less dominant, and when non-rational knowing is available, there is a greater connectivity, a seemlessness, a unity even. There are still trees, chipmunks, sidewalks, but they are experienced in a different way. I am not preaching anything here. Let's be clear about this. I am just sharing my viewpoint triggered by your questions as ones coming from "my own mind." Yes, it definitely affords me protection. The need for protection implies a state of danger. I would rather have no danger and no necessity of protection.
I get what you are alluding to. "non-rational" is not a good word. Reason is the sane framework of cognition; otherwise, we "see things". This not only make crackpots out of us in the so-called spiritual world but also cause political conflicts between people and nations. "When the rational aspect of mind is less dominant", it's a state of perception that is not predominantly informed by (practical) knowledge. Even a hammer loses its form as a tool for hammering nails.
Yes. I would characterize this state of perception as one in which the idea and energy of 'using' is diminished. In that diminishment, there is less 'commodification' of the world, and in that diminishment of commodification, the 'stuff' no longer seems so disparate, disconnected and material. Getting a touch political, but capitalism, in fact...even the idea of 'economy'.... both expresses and reinforces this state of using/commodifying. I'm open to many ways of talking about this stuff, but in essence, I'm looking to talk about 2 different ways of knowing/perceiving/experiencing the world.
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Post by laughter on Sept 2, 2022 11:18:31 GMT -5
The Buddha's life story is quite extreme. To understate matters, not everyone who eventually takes up a conscious search for the existential truth has been sheltered from the sight of human pain, misery and death at the time that they do. if you have been sheltered from those extremes then you are still suffering from one moment to the next. Dissatisfaction, uncomfortableness, unfulfillment, anxiety, incompleteness, lack of self-esteem and self worth etc. This is all Dukkha, suffering. The range of human experience is quite broad. There are many who aren't driven by lack of self esteem or worth or unfulfillment. Some people are quite comfortable in their own skin as well as materially. Satisfaction can be an interesting "teacher", but I came to the realization that chasing pleasure or achievement highs was a hamster wheel while I still had a decade of atheism in front of me. Just because there is dukkha doesn't mean that dukkha is necessarily driving the search.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2022 11:20:22 GMT -5
According to what Buddha told his disciples, he had one experience that resulted in liberation and freedom. He supposedly told them that after meditating for a certain period of time, he looked up into the morning sky from where he sat and saw the planet Venus. This sensory event triggered realization, and that's a classic kensho event. What's unusual is that the Buddha apparently attained freedom, realization, and permanent liberation as a result of that one event. Most people who have such things happen do not. Nevertheless, I'll drop this issue because you obviously have a deep attachment to the idea that liberation can only happen in one way. Having read hundreds of spiritual biographies and autobiographies of sages, it's clear to me that each human's path to realization is quite unique. You're trying to manufacture the Buddhas considerable meditation time under the Bodhi tree as a kensho event. That's a contrivance. There is nothing in the Buddhist teachings centered around the noble truths and the eightfold path that promotes what you refer to as kensho experiences. In the Zen tradition there isn't much discussion of the eightfold path, and intellectualization and attachment to ideas is eschewed. The primary teaching is that what's important is discovering what the Buddha discovered, so people are told how to meditate, and encouraged to pursue that path until realizations occur. There are countless stories of what happened to various people who followed that advice, and kensho events commonly result after periods of deep samadhi. I think that the Buddha reported that his realization occurred after looking at the planet Venus rising in the morning sky. One monk woke up after hearing a pebble strike a bamboo fence. Another guy woke up after smelling peach blossoms. Hakuin said that his deepest existential insight occurred upon hearing the sound of falling snow. Without a reference for what the word "kensho" points to, I can understand why people have no comprehension of it. FWIW, meditation is not a kensho event. A kensho event occurs suddenly, by grace, and if it's deep, reality disintegrates, one comes face to face with Source, and various existential questions are instantly resolved. Whether people believe this or not is not my concern.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2022 11:21:27 GMT -5
if you have been sheltered from those extremes then you are still suffering from one moment to the next. Dissatisfaction, uncomfortableness, unfulfillment, anxiety, incompleteness, lack of self-esteem and self worth etc. This is all Dukkha, suffering. The range of human experience is quite broad. There are many who aren't driven by lack of self esteem or worth or unfulfillment. Some people are quite comfortable in their own skin as well as materially. Satisfaction can be an interesting "teacher", but I came to the realization that chasing pleasure or achievement highs was a hamster wheel while I still had a decade of atheism in front of me. Just because there is dukkha doesn't mean that dukkha is necessarily driving the search. Correct.
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Post by andrew on Sept 2, 2022 11:24:31 GMT -5
Maybe also, it could be said that rather than something 'driving' the search, maybe 'God' is 'pulling us in'. Like a fisherman lol
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Post by sree on Sept 2, 2022 11:27:29 GMT -5
The definition of "you" is critically important. If you are the boatman, your suffering will trigger a curiosity quite unlike that of the "Buddha"'s.
You've got to begin with the boatman, look in the mirror and ask: "What the hell are you!?" So you need to look in the mirror and discover that you are not The Boatman. That's why you're suffering because you think you are the boatman. I wish it is that simple. The guy you see in the mirror is both the boat and the boatman fused into one. This is why I suggested we find out what the boatman is made of. The boatman talks to the physician, the psychiatrist, and the priest about his problems.
I know I am the boat that can talk, and think it is a man. Do you think I am crazy?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 11:27:33 GMT -5
You're trying to manufacture the Buddhas considerable meditation time under the Bodhi tree as a kensho event. That's a contrivance. There is nothing in the Buddhist teachings centered around the noble truths and the eightfold path that promotes what you refer to as kensho experiences. In the Zen tradition there isn't much discussion of the eightfold path, and intellectualization and attachment to ideas is eschewed. The primary teaching is that what's important is discovering what the Buddha discovered, so people are told how to meditate, and encouraged to pursue that path until realizations occur. There are countless stories of what happened to various people who followed that advice, and kensho events commonly result after periods of deep samadhi. I think that the Buddha reported that his realization occurred after looking at the planet Venus rising in the morning sky. One monk woke up after hearing a pebble strike a bamboo fence. Another guy woke up after smelling peach blossoms. Hakuin said that his deepest existential insight occurred upon hearing the sound of falling snow. Without a reference for what the word "kensho" points to, I can understand why people have no comprehension of it. FWIW, meditation is not a kensho event. A kensho event occurs suddenly, by grace, and if it's deep, reality disintegrates, one comes face to face with Source, and various existential questions are instantly resolved. Whether people believe this or not is not my concern. Zen is very far removed from the original teachings of the Buddha as appear in the Pali cannon.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 11:31:18 GMT -5
if you have been sheltered from those extremes then you are still suffering from one moment to the next. Dissatisfaction, uncomfortableness, unfulfillment, anxiety, incompleteness, lack of self-esteem and self worth etc. This is all Dukkha, suffering. The range of human experience is quite broad. There are many who aren't driven by lack of self esteem or worth or unfulfillment. Some people are quite comfortable in their own skin as well as materially. Satisfaction can be an interesting "teacher", but I came to the realization that chasing pleasure or achievement highs was a hamster wheel while I still had a decade of atheism in front of me. Just because there is dukkha doesn't mean that dukkha is necessarily driving the search. So if not then what is driving the search? You only search for something in terms of meaning and fulfillment if you think you don't have it already or you have lost it. That lack of not having what you are searching for is loss. That loss is suffering.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 2, 2022 11:35:56 GMT -5
In the Zen tradition there isn't much discussion of the eightfold path, and intellectualization and attachment to ideas is eschewed. The primary teaching is that what's important is discovering what the Buddha discovered, so people are told how to meditate, and encouraged to pursue that path until realizations occur. There are countless stories of what happened to various people who followed that advice, and kensho events commonly result after periods of deep samadhi. I think that the Buddha reported that his realization occurred after looking at the planet Venus rising in the morning sky. One monk woke up after hearing a pebble strike a bamboo fence. Another guy woke up after smelling peach blossoms. Hakuin said that his deepest existential insight occurred upon hearing the sound of falling snow. Without a reference for what the word "kensho" points to, I can understand why people have no comprehension of it. FWIW, meditation is not a kensho event. A kensho event occurs suddenly, by grace, and if it's deep, reality disintegrates, one comes face to face with Source, and various existential questions are instantly resolved. Whether people believe this or not is not my concern. Zen is very far removed from the original teachings of the Buddha as appear in the Pali cannon. Basically, Buddhism + Taoism = Zen. (Which is a good thing).
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 2, 2022 11:37:44 GMT -5
The range of human experience is quite broad. There are many who aren't driven by lack of self esteem or worth or unfulfillment. Some people are quite comfortable in their own skin as well as materially. Satisfaction can be an interesting "teacher", but I came to the realization that chasing pleasure or achievement highs was a hamster wheel while I still had a decade of atheism in front of me. Just because there is dukkha doesn't mean that dukkha is necessarily driving the search. So if not then what is driving the search? You only search for something in terms of meaning and fulfillment if you think you don't have it already or you have lost it. That lack of not having what you are searching for is loss. That loss is suffering. For me, laughter is saying, there is the stick, and then there is the carrot.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 11:44:06 GMT -5
So if not then what is driving the search? You only search for something in terms of meaning and fulfillment if you think you don't have it already or you have lost it. That lack of not having what you are searching for is loss. That loss is suffering. For me, laughter is saying, there is the stick, and then there is the carrot. If you are getting beaten by a stick that's suffering. If you're chasing a carrot that's also suffering because you will not be satisfied until you get the carrot.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 11:54:31 GMT -5
Zen is very far removed from the original teachings of the Buddha as appear in the Pali cannon. Basically, Buddhism + Taoism = Zen. (Which is a good thing). There is a strange contradiction here. ZD places a lot of importance on these kenshos or satoris, but mention it to the Zen master and you will get whacked by the Keisaku.
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