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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 13:02:03 GMT -5
Before that happened Somers was in a state of suffering. Then everything became Ocean as he is fond of saying. So it came out of the blue as you say and the suffering disappeared. But that's not how awakening usually happens. In his case there was no active seeking so we can't say what was driving his seeking since there was none. FWIW, in the videos I've seen of Morgan-Somers, he never says anything about any kind of suffering prior to being inundated by "the ocean", to use his words. In fact, he claims that he was a happy teenager looking forward to playing professional soccer. Maybe the Buddhist religion's emphasis upon suffering causes some believers to filter everything through that concept. That's okay, but it's certainly not necessary, and there are lots of people who have awakened who were not driven by suffering. I suspect that the consensus on this forum by people who have found the truth is that there are many different pathways to the truth. The world is full of happy teenagers who aren't suffering all the time. But the unrealised state is the state of ignorance (ignorance of true nature) and therefore is suffering. Why would Somers want to discuss times when he suffered? To identify as a limited personal individual is suffering by definition. When Somers transcended the finite individual to be ocean then he would have seen suffering for what it is.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 2, 2022 13:03:06 GMT -5
Basically, Buddhism + Taoism = Zen. (Which is a good thing). There is a strange contradiction here. ZD places a lot of importance on these kenshos or satoris, but mention it to the Zen master and you will get whacked by the Keisaku. Only if you give the wrong answer. There are wrong answers. You never get hit for a correct answer.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 13:08:02 GMT -5
There is a strange contradiction here. ZD places a lot of importance on these kenshos or satoris, but mention it to the Zen master and you will get whacked by the Keisaku. Only if you give the wrong answer. There are wrong answers. You never get hit for a correct answer. There is no such thing as a right or wrong answer. They are just experiences. The content is irrelevant. There is no kensho that is better than another. He would have got whacked for thinking his kensho was significant as a sign of awakening.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 2, 2022 13:25:34 GMT -5
Only if you give the wrong answer. There are wrong answers. You never get hit for a correct answer. There is no such thing as a right or wrong answer. They are just experiences. The content is irrelevant. There is no kensho that is better than another. He would have got whacked for thinking his kensho was significant as a sign of awakening. Once one finger hits the keyboard, already wrong. (Loose translation). Sorry sca, you need to read up on your Zen. for anyone who doesn't know that is a line from a very famous zen/chan statement traditionally attributed to bodhidharma. here it is in full: "a special transmission outside the scriptures, not founded upon words and letters. by pointing directly to one's mind, It lets one see into one's own true nature and thus attain buddhahood."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 13:33:42 GMT -5
There is no such thing as a right or wrong answer. They are just experiences. The content is irrelevant. There is no kensho that is better than another. He would have got whacked for thinking his kensho was significant as a sign of awakening. Once one finger hits the keyboard, already wrong. (Loose translation). Sorry sca, you need to read up on your Zen. for anyone who doesn't know that is a line from a very famous zen/chan statement traditionally attributed to bodhidharma. here it is in full: "a special transmission outside the scriptures, not founded upon words and letters. by pointing directly to one's mind, It lets one see into one's own true nature and thus attain buddhahood." I don't understand how that is related to a particular kensho experience since true nature has nothing to do with a spiritual experience. But you only need the last line. see into one's own true nature and thus attain buddhahood."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 13:47:07 GMT -5
I think every field of endeavor can be a "spiritual" path, and can lead beyond itself. You see the difference in the way people do, or talk about, whatever it is. In the fields he mentioned, like science and philosophy, you see some people approaching it with a kind of "higher appreciation", and they get to the "edges" and toy with paradox. They are seeking to see something on a deeper level, something they are in awe of. I once saw a physics book called the "Mind of God". Eventually they'll probably sense that they don't have the "intellect" to get there, but every step is a step on the way. No no no no! 😀 What is the value of seeing deeper into a transient impermanent object? That's just more mind, more perception. You need to get out of the way of mind altogether! Then what remains? You! What you are fundamentally cannot be anything you know no matter how deep or how high the appreciation. But they're not trying to see deeper into a "transient impermanent object". They feel called to find the underlying (or transcendent) essence that is constant, underlying the diversity of form. It's obvious to me in physics, but it's present in every field. "Reaching for the stars." etc. You can see the "seeking spirit" at work.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 13:55:10 GMT -5
Only if you give the wrong answer. There are wrong answers. You never get hit for a correct answer. There is no such thing as a right or wrong answer. They are just experiences. The content is irrelevant. There is no kensho that is better than another. He would have got whacked for thinking his kensho was significant as a sign of awakening. There is nothing wrong with talking about kensho because one finds it really cool, fun, or interesting. In fact that appreciation and gratitude might actually be part of what keeps things going. You get whacked with a stick when something creeps in and starts thinking "oow, I had a Kensho, I'm pretty special, look at me. These other people aren't quite so spiritual... "
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2022 13:55:22 GMT -5
No no no no! 😀 What is the value of seeing deeper into a transient impermanent object? That's just more mind, more perception. You need to get out of the way of mind altogether! Then what remains? You! What you are fundamentally cannot be anything you know no matter how deep or how high the appreciation. But they're not trying to see deeper into a "transient impermanent object". They feel called to find the underlying (or transcendent) essence that is constant, underlying the diversity of form. It's obvious to me in physics, but it's present in every field. "Reaching for the stars." etc. You can see the "seeking spirit" at work.
Correct, and thinking that there is only one path to the truth is a rather fundamentalist mindset.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 2, 2022 13:59:38 GMT -5
FWIW, in the videos I've seen of Morgan-Somers, he never says anything about any kind of suffering prior to being inundated by "the ocean", to use his words. In fact, he claims that he was a happy teenager looking forward to playing professional soccer. Maybe the Buddhist religion's emphasis upon suffering causes some believers to filter everything through that concept. That's okay, but it's certainly not necessary, and there are lots of people who have awakened who were not driven by suffering. I suspect that the consensus on this forum by people who have found the truth is that there are many different pathways to the truth. The world is full of happy teenagers who aren't suffering all the time. But the unrealised state is the state of ignorance (ignorance of true nature) and therefore is suffering. Why would Somers want to discuss times when he suffered? To identify as a limited personal individual is suffering by definition. When Somers transcended the finite individual to be ocean then he would have seen suffering for what it is. It's becoming obvious that some people become deeply attached to suffering and their ideas about suffering. A Zen Master would advise letting those ideas go.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 16:39:30 GMT -5
But they're not trying to see deeper into a "transient impermanent object". They feel called to find the underlying (or transcendent) essence that is constant, underlying the diversity of form. It's obvious to me in physics, but it's present in every field. "Reaching for the stars." etc. You can see the "seeking spirit" at work. Correct, and thinking that there is only one path to the truth is a rather fundamentalist mindset. And as Harding said, the word "fundamentalist" is an odd one, since it's meaning is kind of the opposite.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 16:42:01 GMT -5
I think every field of endeavor can be a "spiritual" path, and can lead beyond itself. You see the difference in the way people do, or talk about, whatever it is. In the fields he mentioned, like science and philosophy, you see some people approaching it with a kind of "higher appreciation", and they get to the "edges" and toy with paradox. They are seeking to see something on a deeper level, something they are in awe of. I once saw a physics book called the "Mind of God". Eventually they'll probably sense that they don't have the "intellect" to get there, but every step is a step on the way. Is it possible they sense an emptiness or mundaneness in their lives that pushes them to find this awe? I suppose it's possible, but why believe that it's necessary? Sometimes one looks at the stars (or ??) and feels how amazing and mind blowing creation is, and feels a pull or a wonder/curiosity about what it is, really. It seems to me there is a positive pull there that doesn't require an idea about universal suffering. But I get it... I've been quite miserable and depressed at times.
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Post by andrew on Sept 2, 2022 17:27:50 GMT -5
Is it possible they sense an emptiness or mundaneness in their lives that pushes them to find this awe? I suppose it's possible, but why believe that it's necessary? Sometimes one looks at the stars (or ??) and feels how amazing and mind blowing creation is, and feels a pull or a wonder/curiosity about what it is, really. It seems to me there is a positive pull there that doesn't require an idea about universal suffering. But I get it... I've been quite miserable and depressed at times. I guess we could agree that intrinsic to seeking is the sense that something is missing, something is not 'right'...so I guess the flip side of saying that 'suffering drives the seeking' is to say that 'the call of Home drives the seeking' (or something like that). So yeah, I think I get what you are saying...there's 2 ways to look at it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 20:41:20 GMT -5
But they're not trying to see deeper into a "transient impermanent object". They feel called to find the underlying (or transcendent)Â essence that is constant, underlying the diversity of form. It's obvious to me in physics, but it's present in every field. "Reaching for the stars." etc. You can see the "seeking spirit" at work.Â
Correct, and thinking that there is only one path to the truth is a rather fundamentalist mindset. I think I've made it clear on several occasions that there are many paths but only one goal. You might practice what you call AT-T, someone else might practice mindfulness, or Kriya Yoga or Transcendental Meditation as I did. There are many roads to get to the city. You can take the scenic route and stop off along the way to admire some kenshos or take the highway but whichever route you take you have to eventually end up at the door of City Hall and that door is transcendence. Pure nondual awareness. There is nowhere else to go. There is only one door. There is no other entrance but that. It is beyond interpretation. The Self is realized if the mind permanently dissolves into its source. That is SR. Nothing else can be said to be SR other than that. That is the living reality. So yes I agree, it is fundamentalist because there is nothing more fundamental than that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 20:43:50 GMT -5
The world is full of happy teenagers who aren't suffering all the time. But the unrealised state is the state of ignorance (ignorance of true nature) and therefore is suffering. Why would Somers want to discuss times when he suffered? To identify as a limited personal individual is suffering by definition. When Somers transcended the finite individual to be ocean then he would have seen suffering for what it is. It's becoming obvious that some people become deeply attached to suffering and their ideas about suffering. A Zen Master would advise letting those ideas go. That would be very good advice! Not only that idea but ALL ideas.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2022 20:55:32 GMT -5
I suppose it's possible, but why believe that it's necessary? Sometimes one looks at the stars (or ??) and feels how amazing and mind blowing creation is, and feels a pull or a wonder/curiosity about what it is, really. It seems to me there is a positive pull there that doesn't require an idea about universal suffering. But I get it... I've been quite miserable and depressed at times. I guess we could agree that intrinsic to seeking is the sense that something is missing, something is not 'right'...so I guess the flip side of saying that 'suffering drives the seeking' is to say that 'the call of Home drives the seeking' (or something like that). So yeah, I think I get what you are saying...there's 2 ways to look at it. You mustn't get the idea that the seekers head has to be full of suffering and ideas about suffering to be motivated. If there was only suffering and no glimpse of the light at the end of the tunnel there would be no seeking only despair. It is light that puts an end to darkness. Spiritual practice should show you that light and even though there is darkness from time to time, it becomes the light that more and more motivates you away from the darkness. The word suffering sounds so extreme but most of the time it just means there is separation between limited self and the unboundedness of what you really are which leads to a feeling of lack and incompleteness. That is what suffering means on a day-to-day basis where your life might be going really quite nicely. That is suffering enough to put you on the path. I'm not talking about having your limbs pulled apart on the torture rack! 😃
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