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Post by sree on Aug 27, 2022 22:26:19 GMT -5
I may not be able to get into your world to experience what you were going through, but I understand why you "hid inside". Your world is fundamentally the same as my world. The "separation" between you and I is a curse that gives rise to the Chuangtze boatman.
Depression is a natural response to a universal horrible existential state. I don't think I am wrong about this even though it is perceived as a mental disease in the west and viewed as a latent tendency in the east. Why doesn't this disease or tendency manifest in all mankind but only in you? My diagnosis of the absence of depression (i.e. pain) is a loss of sensitivity. I am also sensitive to the deplorable state of the world but, by circumstance, was not thrust directly into it. If I were in your situation, I would have reacted as you had.
Below is a movie. Tell me what you think of the story.
I will look at the movie later, give it a go. I think I said somewhere I don't think I was clinically depressed (not a mental disease). But I was kind-of predisposed to depression, and since I was about 12 I had this undercurrent of dissatisfaction, meaning it was always there. It's basically what fueled my search, to figure myself out, which turned into a spiritual search, each reciprocated the other. I think it was RD Laing who said so-called mental illness is an appropriate response to an ill society. He thus didn't really believe in mental illness. He was a smart guy. Dr. Thomas Szasz said that mental illness is a myth: the brain is a fact, the mind is a metaphor.
By my reckoning, even the brain is a metaphor. You've got to snap out of it.
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Post by sree on Aug 27, 2022 22:36:57 GMT -5
Which part is made up? Which character in my story would say I lied? More importantly, why do you think I am spinning a tale about myself? Or what reason? oh I see. You think this is all about you. Everybody's story is made up including my own. A selective number of experiences highly edited by my own conditioning and belief system and environmental factors to produce a story about this person called me. And the story is about the bits I care to remember and not the bits I forgot. That's why you are wrong in asserting that spirituality is about your life. It cannot be about this ever-changing tale told by yourself to others and to yourself. Is that what you really took away from Krishnamurti. That somehow the spiritual journey is about you as a person? It's telling that you think I'm suggesting the characters in your life who told their version of the story would accuse you of lying. They're just as likely to paint a better picture of yourself than you have. Anything can happen with stories. I hear what you are saying. You are invalidating everything I said as self-serving. How sad. No one can speak to another and be taken seriously then?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2022 22:50:23 GMT -5
oh I see. You think this is all about you. Everybody's story is made up including my own. A selective number of experiences highly edited by my own conditioning and belief system and environmental factors to produce a story about this person called me. And the story is about the bits I care to remember and not the bits I forgot. That's why you are wrong in asserting that spirituality is about your life. It cannot be about this ever-changing tale told by yourself to others and to yourself. Is that what you really took away from Krishnamurti. That somehow the spiritual journey is about you as a person? It's telling that you think I'm suggesting the characters in your life who told their version of the story would accuse you of lying. They're just as likely to paint a better picture of yourself than you have. Anything can happen with stories. I hear what you are saying. You are invalidating everything I said as self-serving. How sad. No one can speak to another and be taken seriously then?
No I'm not saying that. All of that is valid in the relative field of existence as living personalities who are subject to birth and death. Last time I checked this was a forum about spirituality not about life experiences. The truth of what you are transcends all of those stories. You are trying to change the definition of spirituality by introducing culture and politics as well as your own particular view of life based on your unique personal experiences. I really don't know what you're doing here. This has to be said and stated unequivocally that what you are talking about has nothing to do with spirituality. You are more interested in the traditions and cultural settings of various religious belief systems. I mean really, your point about westerners not understanding Chinese philosophy has exactly what value in the scheme of things? And you seem to have taken everything away about what you consider to be authentic spirituality from a very complicated and flawed individual called Krishnamurti who wrote numerous books and confused a lot of people who we were trying to penetrate his labyrinth mind. I'm wondering if there is a bridge somewhere that can be crossed from your highly personalized account of life to something which transcends all of that. And what transcends all of that is not your boatman which is essentially just ego.
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Post by sree on Aug 27, 2022 23:50:19 GMT -5
I hear what you are saying. You are invalidating everything I said as self-serving. How sad. No one can speak to another and be taken seriously then?
No I'm not saying that. All of that is valid in the relative field of existence as living personalities who are subject to birth and death. Last time I checked this was a forum about spirituality not about life experiences. The truth of what you are transcends all of those stories. You are trying to change the definition of spirituality by introducing culture and politics as well as your own particular view of life based on your unique personal experiences. I really don't know what you're doing here. This has to be said and stated unequivocally that what you are talking about has nothing to do with spirituality. You are more interested in the traditions and cultural settings of various religious belief systems. I mean really, your point about westerners not understanding Chinese philosophy has exactly what value in the scheme of things? And you seem to have taken everything away about what you consider to be authentic spirituality from a very complicated and flawed individual called Krishnamurti who wrote numerous books and confused a lot of people who we were trying to penetrate his labyrinth mind. I'm wondering if there is a bridge somewhere that can be crossed from your highly personalized account of life to something which transcends all of that. And what transcends all of that is not your boatman which is essentially just ego. Spirituality is not about life experiences? My life experiences has nothing to do with spirituality? If that is the case, then spirituality - as you understand it - can go to hell as far as I am concerned.
If the truth of what we are transcends stories of our life experiences, then that truth is irrelevant to our lives. No wonder the Buddhist and Hindu temples, Christian churches, muslim mosques cater to people involved with a spirituality that has no connection to their worldly lives. And you think that is the way and want it that way: separation of church from state.
You are a Brit practicing Buddhism in Thailand. You would tell the Thais to keep the misery of their daily lives separate from spirituality? No politics, you say. Let the Thai King and Thai government be. Feed the monks and beggars to get better karma for yourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 0:11:12 GMT -5
No I'm not saying that. All of that is valid in the relative field of existence as living personalities who are subject to birth and death. Last time I checked this was a forum about spirituality not about life experiences. The truth of what you are transcends all of those stories. You are trying to change the definition of spirituality by introducing culture and politics as well as your own particular view of life based on your unique personal experiences. I really don't know what you're doing here. This has to be said and stated unequivocally that what you are talking about has nothing to do with spirituality. You are more interested in the traditions and cultural settings of various religious belief systems. I mean really, your point about westerners not understanding Chinese philosophy has exactly what value in the scheme of things? And you seem to have taken everything away about what you consider to be authentic spirituality from a very complicated and flawed individual called Krishnamurti who wrote numerous books and confused a lot of people who we were trying to penetrate his labyrinth mind. I'm wondering if there is a bridge somewhere that can be crossed from your highly personalized account of life to something which transcends all of that. And what transcends all of that is not your boatman which is essentially just ego. Spirituality is not about life experiences? My life experiences has nothing to do with spirituality? If that is the case, then spirituality - as you understand it - can go to hell as far as I am concerned.
If the truth of what we are transcends stories of our life experiences, then that truth is irrelevant to our lives. No wonder the Buddhist and Hindu temples, Christian churches, muslim mosques cater to people involved with a spirituality that has no connection to their worldly lives. And you think that is the way and want it that way: separation of church from state.
You are a Brit practicing Buddhism in Thailand. You would tell the Thais to keep the misery of their daily lives separate from spirituality? No politics, you say. Let the Thai King and Thai government be. Feed the monks and beggars to get better karma for yourselves. Yes that is correct, the goal is to discover that truth is beyond all relative experiences. That may not be the goal of established dogmatic religion which includes Buddhism, but it is the goal of spirituality. It's spirituality 101. And I am not a practicing Buddhist. I just happen to live in Thailand. But in any case what is practiced here as Buddhism in the City Temple context has nothing to do with Buddhism. You might find authentic Buddhism in the Thai Forest tradition, but in the cities temples just cater for people on a community level and fulfill superstitious needs which seems to center mainly on gaining merit so they can have wealthier lives and perhaps win the lottery. Thats where you are, in the City Temple eating chicken and sticky rice.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 28, 2022 4:16:40 GMT -5
I will look at the movie later, give it a go. I think I said somewhere I don't think I was clinically depressed (not a mental disease). But I was kind-of predisposed to depression, and since I was about 12 I had this undercurrent of dissatisfaction, meaning it was always there. It's basically what fueled my search, to figure myself out, which turned into a spiritual search, each reciprocated the other. I think it was RD Laing who said so-called mental illness is an appropriate response to an ill society. He thus didn't really believe in mental illness. He was a smart guy. Dr. Thomas Szasz said that mental illness is a myth: the brain is a fact, the mind is a metaphor. By my reckoning, even the brain is a metaphor. You've got to snap out of it.
You think you know me from a few squiggles on a computer screen? From words you get a tiny snapshot.
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Post by sree on Aug 28, 2022 9:46:34 GMT -5
Dr. Thomas Szasz said that mental illness is a myth: the brain is a fact, the mind is a metaphor. By my reckoning, even the brain is a metaphor. You've got to snap out of it.
You think you know me from a few squiggles on a computer screen? From words you get a tiny snapshot.You are mistaken. "You", as an entity apart from me, is of no importance to me. I am not conversing with that boatman. That boatman is the product of toxic human energy and must not be touched. He is a goner. I avoid him (either as the President of the US or the homeless beggar) out there populating my world. The "you" I am talking to is another me, a fellow boatman heading for that other shore. It is through him and with him that I learn. And I have been learning through my conversations with you. You have given me another window affording me another view into my life.
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Post by sree on Aug 28, 2022 10:36:49 GMT -5
Spirituality is not about life experiences? My life experiences has nothing to do with spirituality? If that is the case, then spirituality - as you understand it - can go to hell as far as I am concerned.
If the truth of what we are transcends stories of our life experiences, then that truth is irrelevant to our lives. No wonder the Buddhist and Hindu temples, Christian churches, muslim mosques cater to people involved with a spirituality that has no connection to their worldly lives. And you think that is the way and want it that way: separation of church from state.
You are a Brit practicing Buddhism in Thailand. You would tell the Thais to keep the misery of their daily lives separate from spirituality? No politics, you say. Let the Thai King and Thai government be. Feed the monks and beggars to get better karma for yourselves. Yes that is correct, the goal is to discover that truth is beyond all relative experiences. That may not be the goal of established dogmatic religion which includes Buddhism, but it is the goal of spirituality. It's spirituality 101. And I am not a practicing Buddhist. I just happen to live in Thailand. But in any case what is practiced here as Buddhism in the City Temple context has nothing to do with Buddhism. You might find authentic Buddhism in the Thai Forest tradition, but in the cities temples just cater for people on a community level and fulfill superstitious needs which seems to center mainly on gaining merit so they can have wealthier lives and perhaps win the lottery. Thats where you are, in the City Temple eating chicken and sticky rice.Quite right. City Temple is no different from the British Empire which still runs through your veins. Spirituality that does not deal with brutality and corruption in society is sneaky. It must have taken a lot of brutality to control three-quarters of the planet. Can the Thai Forest tradition transform the Devil? Can that brutal culture ever be eradicated? Spirituality that does not confront that question is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Let's do a practical test. If I were to knock your phone off the table in a Thai bar, it falls and breaks. I walk away. You call out to me and, after casting a glance at you and your broken phone on the floor, I walk away. What would you do?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 28, 2022 10:46:30 GMT -5
You think you know me from a few squiggles on a computer screen? From words you get a tiny snapshot.You are mistaken. "You", as an entity apart from me, is of no importance to me. I am not conversing with that boatman. That boatman is the product of toxic human energy and must not be touched. He is a goner. I avoid him (either as the President of the US or the homeless beggar) out there populating my world. The "you" I am talking to is another me, a fellow boatman heading for that other shore. It is through him and with him that I learn. And I have been learning through my conversations with you. You have given me another window affording me another view into my life.
OK, no problem. I'm basically here just to share. It's good somebody has gained something.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2022 11:39:37 GMT -5
Yes that is correct, the goal is to discover that truth is beyond all relative experiences. That may not be the goal of established dogmatic religion which includes Buddhism, but it is the goal of spirituality. It's spirituality 101. And I am not a practicing Buddhist. I just happen to live in Thailand. But in any case what is practiced here as Buddhism in the City Temple context has nothing to do with Buddhism. You might find authentic Buddhism in the Thai Forest tradition, but in the cities temples just cater for people on a community level and fulfill superstitious needs which seems to center mainly on gaining merit so they can have wealthier lives and perhaps win the lottery. Thats where you are, in the City Temple eating chicken and sticky rice.Quite right. City Temple is no different from the British Empire which still runs through your veins. Spirituality that does not deal with brutality and corruption in society is sneaky. It must have taken a lot of brutality to control three-quarters of the planet. Can the Thai Forest tradition transform the Devil? Can that brutal culture ever be eradicated? Spirituality that does not confront that question is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Let's do a practical test. If I were to knock your phone off the table in a Thai bar, it falls and breaks. I walk away. You call out to me and, after casting a glance at you and your broken phone on the floor, I walk away. What would you do? Did Krishnamurti ever advise what to do in the event of a broken phone? That's the kind of spirituality in action you hanker for isn't it? What is spirituality if it's not about life right? What does this kind of "what would you do if" question of which there are an infinite number, have to do with one's transcendent natural state? You and I are worlds apart on this subject.
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Post by sree on Aug 28, 2022 12:45:31 GMT -5
Quite right. City Temple is no different from the British Empire which still runs through your veins. Spirituality that does not deal with brutality and corruption in society is sneaky. It must have taken a lot of brutality to control three-quarters of the planet. Can the Thai Forest tradition transform the Devil? Can that brutal culture ever be eradicated? Spirituality that does not confront that question is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Let's do a practical test. If I were to knock your phone off the table in a Thai bar, it falls and breaks. I walk away. You call out to me and, after casting a glance at you and your broken phone on the floor, I walk away. What would you do? Did Krishnamurti ever advise what to do in the event of a broken phone? That's the kind of spirituality in action you hanker for isn't it? What is spirituality if it's not about life right? What does this kind of "what would you do if" question of which there are an infinite number, have to do with one's transcendent natural state? You and I are worlds apart on this subject. I don't think Krishnamurti gave advice on anything other than to kick the likes of Sri Ramana out the door. Be a light to yourself, he would say.
The "broken phone" question is the kind that Jesus was asked. Apparently, he never hesitated and gave answers that civilized barbarians in the western world. Don't knock religions at the City Temple and the Vatican. Life among humans was pretty brutal, more so than it is now in the west. The City Temple Buddhism you spit on requires no thinking for assimilation. Do as you are told. Adam did not. He listened to the Devil, the thinker.
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Post by sree on Aug 28, 2022 12:48:53 GMT -5
Quite right. City Temple is no different from the British Empire which still runs through your veins. Spirituality that does not deal with brutality and corruption in society is sneaky. It must have taken a lot of brutality to control three-quarters of the planet. Can the Thai Forest tradition transform the Devil? Can that brutal culture ever be eradicated? Spirituality that does not confront that question is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Let's do a practical test. If I were to knock your phone off the table in a Thai bar, it falls and breaks. I walk away. You call out to me and, after casting a glance at you and your broken phone on the floor, I walk away. What would you do?
is now we'll see can you help? anyone? Are you speaking in tongues?
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Post by sree on Aug 28, 2022 12:59:37 GMT -5
Are you speaking in tongues? English The words are in English. Do you have a problem forming complete sentences?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 28, 2022 13:22:44 GMT -5
Quite right. City Temple is no different from the British Empire which still runs through your veins. Spirituality that does not deal with brutality and corruption in society is sneaky. It must have taken a lot of brutality to control three-quarters of the planet. Can the Thai Forest tradition transform the Devil? Can that brutal culture ever be eradicated? Spirituality that does not confront that question is a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Let's do a practical test. If I were to knock your phone off the table in a Thai bar, it falls and breaks. I walk away. You call out to me and, after casting a glance at you and your broken phone on the floor, I walk away. What would you do?
is now we'll see can you help? anyone? I don't know what this means either. You specifically said: I am enlightened. I don't need any advice. I don't want any help. So if those are the case, pilgrim decided to withdraw. So what are you asking about now? I don't do BS. zazeniac, in all honesty, straightened your asterisk out.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 28, 2022 13:27:33 GMT -5
I hear what you are saying. You are invalidating everything I said as self-serving. How sad. No one can speak to another and be taken seriously then?
No I'm not saying that. All of that is valid in the relative field of existence as living personalities who are subject to birth and death. Last time I checked this was a forum about spirituality not about life experiences. The truth of what you are transcends all of those stories. You are trying to change the definition of spirituality by introducing culture and politics as well as your own particular view of life based on your unique personal experiences. I really don't know what you're doing here. This has to be said and stated unequivocally that what you are talking about has nothing to do with spirituality. You are more interested in the traditions and cultural settings of various religious belief systems. I mean really, your point about westerners not understanding Chinese philosophy has exactly what value in the scheme of things? And you seem to have taken everything away about what you consider to be authentic spirituality from a very complicated and flawed individual called Krishnamurti who wrote numerous books and confused a lot of people who we were trying to penetrate his labyrinth mind. I'm wondering if there is a bridge somewhere that can be crossed from your highly personalized account of life to something which transcends all of that. And what transcends all of that is not your boatman which is essentially just ego. sca does not do BS either, sree. pilgrim likes to infinity, and beyond.
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