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Post by laughter on Aug 22, 2022 6:14:20 GMT -5
That's not a valid argument for not giving money to a beggar. 😃 Since everything else you do is for selfish reasons why rule out this action? Whereas other actions which satisfy your own self and no other are selfish, giving money to a beggar is also for your own selfish reasons but you're also making someone else happy so there's more of a reason to give money to a beggar not less. Everything I do is for the body. I am the self, the tender of the body. I have no business giving money to beggars, a symptom of evil in society. I cannot be connected to that evil. No politics, remember? Not in here and not out there in the real world. What is the source of evil, if not the "Self/self"?
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Post by laughter on Aug 22, 2022 6:16:30 GMT -5
What does an act of human kindness have to do with politics? There is something very distasteful about you as a person. Human kindness? My discussion on getting rid of a government that creates beggars is considered politics and disallowed. You would declare criticism of such a government off-limits; and yet, you would expect me to support the beggars it creates? The begger's hunger is something you can do something about, in immediate terms. Changing a government is, for the most part, in contrast, outside the scope of influence of most individuals, in most moments.
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Post by tenka on Aug 22, 2022 6:48:18 GMT -5
So what is a human being? What does it constitute and comprise of? Is it just an object or a combination of mind body and soul within conscious awareness? No point in mentioning objects when one doesn't know what it comprises of .No point in mentioning Consciousness either .
But we have to talk about what we don't know. So, we give name to objects and differentiate one from another putting them into categories so we can identify them. This is called the invention and accumulation of knowledge. Thus, our entire Block Universe is made up of knowledge. It's all make belief.
So why say you are not a human being when you relate to objects in a way where it's all make believe? There is no foundation to anything from this starting point that reflects anything actual . All these statements and all these quotes from other teachers and masters don't carry any weight . Arguing amongst your illusory selves trying to out trump one make believe statement over another . It seems pretty foolish to me . What's odd is that some defend their make believe statements to be true . Now that's fcuked up
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Post by tenka on Aug 22, 2022 6:51:40 GMT -5
Okay so what you are doing is calling the shell of the walnut illusory and the nut itself as the actuality . It's the same as what Sree is talking about in regards not being an actual human being . This is neti neti . It's discerning what you are not in relation to what you are . It's false in regards to the bigger picture that encompasses both as what you are . There isn't anything what you are is not . For the most part, yes. But I can't speak to sree's view. I'm surprised you write: "There isn't anything what you are is not". That's ND. I have always maintained the same stance regarding there is only what you are . When there is the beingness of what you are or the unity of Self, how can one dismiss something over another regarding what you are . How does one start to nit pick what one isn't from that point onwards?
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Post by tenka on Aug 22, 2022 7:00:42 GMT -5
So when you are experiencing a human individualised experience how can you prise apart the conscious awareness aspect of what you are with the human experience that is happening? Are the mind body cells not consciously aware? Are the two not the same thing?
There are no mind body cells as such. Every goddam thing we can perceive and point to are imagined just because they can be touched, seen, or heard.
There are many aspects to what you are yet all are what you are the same . An arm and a leg, an apple and a pear .. or a human experience that involves human aspects .. You can't prise what you are from what you are . So there cannot be what you are as the walnut and not the shell . What I think some peeps do is measure their own sense of self awareness that can be experienced beyond any objects to then conclude that the object cannot be what you are . It's not correct . self awareness is simply used as a self measure in order to make distinctions in reflection of themselves .. I don't agree that all is imagined in a way where that reflects the senses . It's a notion that derives through peeps ideas and believed to be true when you have already said that it's all make believe. The same truth that is all make believe that derives through the same senses .
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2022 7:02:36 GMT -5
You've really missed the point here. Everything we do is for the Self. We are Self (ish). All beings in the field of action are doing that which takes us towards greater happiness and fulfillment which is also the realization of the Self. Are you telling me that if you do something for someone else without any expectation of something in return that you don't feel good about it? It is Self (ish). This is just a context-word game. This is the way it use to be for me, sure, but I honestly don't think you'd understand if I tried to explain the difference with how it is now. Sorry. And the thing is, even back then, sometimes "doing the right thing" was just spontaneous, without any sort of feeling of gratification afterward. It's all a matter of degree, character and situation. Doing the right thing IS spontaneous but then again so is losing one's temper. I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I'm just pointing out that when we do good things we feel good even if we are doing it for no reward. We are certainly not suffering by giving a homeless person money or a hot meal. Loving kindness meditation is a spiritual practice in Buddhism. Karma yoga is a specific path of yoga which is doing service towards others without seeking a reward. Ramana Maharishi said when you do work just give it to God, not for yourself. Karma yoga compliments the other yogas of bhakti and Jnana. In the eight limbs of Patanjali's ashtanga yoga there are the ethical and moral standards of the yamas and niyamas. I reiterate, on a behavioral level these practices are Self (ish). It benefits the mind to do these good acts and kind actions thereby better preparing a calmer and happier mind for the deeper discovery of true nature. There is method and reason behind this. Of course we have to recognize the noble desires of selfishness like helping others and the desire for liberation rather than those selfish desires which have negative results. But both good and bad actions and intentions are motivated by benefiting ones own self. I think this is fairly obvious. We act to benefit ourselves in some way, either consciously or unconsciously. What is that other than selfishness?
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Post by tenka on Aug 22, 2022 7:11:50 GMT -5
Not sure where you are coming from in regards to embryos . I'm pretty sure what he means by that is his belief that it's possible for the individual to become perfected, and from what I've read from him in the past, he envisions this as some sort of God-like transcendence. I believe in transcendence from a self position also .. but what the individual constitutes is key . An individual that is imagined? An individual that is the walnut but not it's shell . What I have touched upon for a time is for peeps to talk about what the individual person represents . To some it's just an object or a dream character or some kind of Consciousness blob . It's as diverse as it can get ..
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Post by tenka on Aug 22, 2022 7:17:17 GMT -5
Is that what you have realised to what you are being not? The thing is, you can only say you have realised what you are not when you have realised what you are .And when this is so, one will understand that there isn't anything that you are not . This is why I say, there is only what you are . We need to sort this out. I know what you mean logically. Logic won't work here.
I realize I am not a human being. This in no way is a realization of what I am.
Let's put it another way. I realize I am not an American. The nation was invented from nothing on July 4, 1776.
How did you realise what you are not? What happened that gave you the realsation of that which doesn't reflect the realisation of what you are? I hear it often when peeps tick off the checklist of I am not this and I am not that . Trying to weed out the illusions and the falsities to be left with something that was present in the weeds all along but too blind to see at the time .
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 22, 2022 8:29:30 GMT -5
Where I used to live, five years ago, there was a Hardees about a mile from my home. I like fast food, where there is no tip, I can sit and eat and read for an hour or two, sweet tea refills (but no tea anymore). I usually went Saturday or Sunday morning, had a steak biscuit or whatever was on sale, sometimes two at a good price. In winter I noticed there was an older black man, he was always drinking coffee. I never saw him eating. I asked him his name, he only said John. I finally asked him once if he had eaten anything. He said they (Hardees) gave him coffee, he said he hadn't eaten. So I gave him $2.00, to get something to eat. He thanked me, got his biscuit. He was usually there in the winter. I always gave him a little money for food. He was always alone. He looked retirement age, one morning I asked him how old he was. As I recall he was about 65. I asked him if he had ever applied for SS. He said no. I asked him if he had ever worked at a public job where he got a check and a withdrawal statement, a pay stub, to show he had paid into SS. He said no. He told me a little of his history, about coming down from the north many years ago. I figured he was there in winter to be out of the cold. I finally got up the courage and asked him if he was homeless. He just smiled at me, didn't say. There were woods nearby, I thought maybe he had a 'camp' nearby. I never smelled him, as I have sometimes when people don't know when to take a bath. I now live about 45 minutes from there. I don't eat biscuits anymore, I don't eat much meat. But one of these days I may go check on John. He would be about 72 now. Yes, there are tears... John is the reason why I gave up the conventional life. I would not give John a damn thing even if he were to die of hunger before me. Giving him a biscuit would be a cheap way to bury my conscience and escape responsibility to bring about a world where there are no Johns. I need to keep John front and center before me. No biscuit. I am giving him my life. You should to. satch wants to weasle out of his responsibility by giving biscuits. We all live in the same physical manifest world. The same sun comes up for everyone. But psychologically, most everybody lives in their own little world, we attribute different causes and effects to events, we just view the world differently. There are a mere few people in the world who see themselves exactly as they are and who see the world as it actually is. I would say less than 1% of 1%. The rest of us do the best we can. But you hear people talk (you not so much because you avoid people), you see what people write here. Every day you hear or read, and say, that person has a distorted view. So most people, the overwhelming majority, live to some extent in imagination, in illusion. They live in illusion about themselves or in illusion concerning the world. Saying all that to say, it's just nonsense, just imagination, to say you are giving John, and all people like him, your life. I make a new metaphor, just for you. You have purchased 3 different 1,000 piece jigsaw puzzles, dumped them all on the table, and are trying to make one picture from them. Now, I can't do anything else for you, except point that out. You can keep trying to make one picture, or not. Sometimes we actually do have to start all over, that's usually quicker. You are not helping John, you are not helping yourself. You are not helping anyone here on ST's forum. No one. Sorry, you are merely escaping. You are not escaping the world, you are trying to escape yourself. The self filters and distorts everything that enters. But the problem is: "Wherever you go, there you are". The world mirrors the self (psychologically). So wherever you are, what you see is what you are. By escaping the world you are trying to keep the mirror still. It doesn't work that way. Wherever you go, there you are. The self itself, is what distorts. Now, will you accept this? No. The self will distort it in some manner. It enters via/ through sree. sree will just see what sree sees. So this post is very most likely an exercise in futility. But I know that, but I try, anyway. I should change my name to Sisyphus. I'm still at the stage of sorting out the pieces that belong to the 3 different boxes, before I try to put one puzzle together.
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Post by sree on Aug 22, 2022 8:34:35 GMT -5
Everything I do is for the body. I am the self, the tender of the body. I have no business giving money to beggars, a symptom of evil in society. I cannot be connected to that evil. No politics, remember? Not in here and not out there in the real world. What is the source of evil, if not the "Self/self"? The self is a natural phenomenon of Consciousness. Is Consciousness intrinsically evil? The self is the observer, the center of the state of awareness. It's sole, basic function is to tend to the living body.
The source of evil is the boatman, the nutjob who is preoccupied with a demented form of spirituality.
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Post by sree on Aug 22, 2022 8:39:59 GMT -5
Human kindness? My discussion on getting rid of a government that creates beggars is considered politics and disallowed. You would declare criticism of such a government off-limits; and yet, you would expect me to support the beggars it creates? The begger's hunger is something you can do something about, in immediate terms. Changing a government is, for the most part, in contrast, outside the scope of influence of most individuals, in most moments. Come on, man. You are the government. The government is not formed by insects that, by the way, have good government. There are no beggars in ant nests and bee hives. Not one of those insects have to beg for food in the hives and nests. The government of the people, for the people and by the people are formed by you mothersuckers (Definition: beggar-feeders).
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 22, 2022 8:56:13 GMT -5
I'm going to say this once more, print it out and stick it beside your computer. I have never said the cultural self has to be mastered. I have said the cultural self has to eventually be eliminated. Eliminated. Now, eliminated doesn't mean the memory of-it, gone, that the memories are forgotten. But then, you can wear it as a mask, when necessary. Then, the cultural self does force one to act in a certain way. This is where zazeniac is getting to, actually free from self. He has written about it. In a nutshell: To awaken, to die, to be born. To awaken is merely the first step. To die is the second step. And it has to happen in that order. I never argue my view, I just share. Yes, cultural mastery was my way of putting it. I understand that you think you're referring to something else, but all these years of your strawmanning make it clear that you're just imagining what that "elimination" means, what that "death before death" means. I woke up this morning and this was nagging at me. Just to be clear, in my post above I was speaking from my perspective. I try to say often enough, my view cannot be translated into the ND view. But of course everybody can't help but read my view from their perspective, that's what I can't help. And I try to be clear when I am speaking from my perspective. So, to be clear, I wasn't speaking about what elimination means from the ND view. This is how you read it. That was not my intention. Yes, I do sometimes say: This is what ND means etc. That wasn't here. If you read my post again, it's clear I was telling what elimination means, from my perspective.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 22, 2022 9:13:16 GMT -5
I can't help that, how you take what I write. As can neither myself nor anyone else help how you interpret what myself or they write. But, we can clarify when you misrepresent via your misinterpretation. Your interpretation of "ST SR" is nothing more than cultural self-mastery, and it is distorted, and not what the people who claim SR are describing. This is wholly and completely not true. You're just pulling that out of thin air. If you can possibly link me to something I've said along those lines, which you think I've said, I will gladly try to untangle it, try to figure out how you derived that. I don't think you can. I don't think anything I have ever posted can remotely even be twisted into that. I am even slightly embarrassed that you could put that on me. Please keep you eye out, when you think I have said that or even intimated it in any way, hit me with it. Please. This, is not remotely to be found anywhere in my mind.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 22, 2022 9:19:06 GMT -5
The begger's hunger is something you can do something about, in immediate terms. Changing a government is, for the most part, in contrast, outside the scope of influence of most individuals, in most moments. Come on, man. You are the government. The government is not formed by insects that, by the way, have good government. There are no beggars in ant nests and bee hives. Not one of those insects have to beg for food in the hives and nests. The government of the people, for the people and by the people are formed by you mothersuckers (Definition: beggar-feeders). This is not the story I was looking for, which I read recently, but it works. At the end it tells about what happens with a failing goose. socialwork.buffalo.edu/content/dam/socialwork/home/self-care-kit/the-goose-story-noyes.pdf
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Post by sree on Aug 22, 2022 9:23:44 GMT -5
John is the reason why I gave up the conventional life. I would not give John a damn thing even if he were to die of hunger before me. Giving him a biscuit would be a cheap way to bury my conscience and escape responsibility to bring about a world where there are no Johns. I need to keep John front and center before me. No biscuit. I am giving him my life. You should to. satch wants to weasle out of his responsibility by giving biscuits. We all live in the same physical manifest world. The same sun comes up for everyone. But psychologically, most everybody lives in their own little world, we attribute different causes and effects to events, we just view the world differently. There are a mere few people in the world who see themselves exactly as they are and who see the world as it actually is. I would say less than 1% of 1%. The rest of us do the best we can. But you hear people talk (you not so much because you avoid people), you see what people write here. Every day you hear or read, and say, that person has a distorted view. So most people, the overwhelming majority, live to some extent in imagination, in illusion. They live in illusion about themselves or in illusion concerning the world. Saying all that to say, it's just nonsense, just imagination, to say you are giving John, and all people like him, your life. I make a new metaphor, just for you. You have purchased 3 different 1,000 piece jigsaw puzzles, dumped them all on the table, and are trying to make one picture from them. Now, I can't do anything else for you, except point that out. You can keep trying to make one picture, or not. Sometimes we actually do have to start all over, that's usually quicker. You are not helping John, you are not helping yourself. You are not helping anyone here on ST's forum. No one. Sorry, you are merely escaping. You are not escaping the world, you are trying to escape yourself. The self filters and distorts everything that enters. But the problem is: "Wherever you go, there you are". The world mirrors the self (psychologically). So wherever you are, what you see is what you are. By escaping the world you are trying to keep the mirror still. It doesn't work that way. Wherever you go, there you are. The self itself, is what distorts. Now, will you accept this? No. The self will distort it in some manner. It enters via/ through sree. sree will just see what sree sees. So this post is very most likely an exercise in futility. But I know that, but I try, anyway. I should change my name to Sisyphus. I'm still at the stage of sorting out the pieces that belong to the 3 different boxes, before I try to put one puzzle together. Are you the Speaker of the House? Why do you presume to speak for the world? Such arrogance lives in a politician who wields the power snatched from the hands of the meek and the weak.
You are a boatman created by thought. Everyone here, including me, is also created by thought. The boatman is the agent of evil. It is not the self. I have stated that I am free of the self. This needs correction. My time spent in conversation with folks here has been beneficial and enabled me to make a distinction between the self and the boatman. I am free of the boatman, not the self which must exist as long as the body is alive. Therefore, this conversation is between the self (me)) and you (the boatman).
Boatmen do live in the same manifest world in the Block Universe invented by science. I see that sun, it came up this morning as I sat on my front porch bathed in its light. It is not the same sun as yours because it revolves around me. I am the center of the world in which you live. You get that? You are not the center of the world in which you live. You are just one of 8 billion boatmen all swimming helplessly in a mess of a world you people have created. I spit on it. Feed the beggars of your world. Don't tell me to contribute to your evil.
Is tenka around? Take apart what I said above and debunk it if you can. I don't think the others here can.
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