Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 20:01:24 GMT -5
Everything we do is for selfish reasons. How about the altruistic gesture of giving money to a beggar? Is that not selfish? Well it is. It's makes you feel good. You're doing it for your own self. Quite right. This is why I never give money to a beggar even though I know he is another me. I am not divided. I am humanity, and live with the pain of a divided world. I am not the same "divided self" as that theorized by Dr. J D Laing. The good doctor sees two self-identities within one person. He is compounding the madness you are inflicted with.
That's not a valid argument for not giving money to a beggar. 😃 Since everything else you do is for selfish reasons why rule out this action? Whereas other actions which satisfy your own self and no other are selfish, giving money to a beggar is also for your own selfish reasons but you're also making someone else happy so there's more of a reason to give money to a beggar not less.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 20:11:04 GMT -5
Realized what YOU are? I have only realized what I am not.
What I am as an individual is to live as a person among peeps.
Is that what you have realised to what you are being not? The thing is, you can only say you have realised what you are not when you have realised what you are . And when this is so, one will understand that there isn't anything that you are not . This is why I say, there is only what you are . Nicely put!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 20:22:26 GMT -5
What is Consciousness again? Consciousness is the state of awareness. It is me. I don't know how it came about. Its nature and origin is a mystery. You can say that I am the Tao that cannot be known. the Tao that cannot be "known"? And you think I'm dense. 😃 "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao; the name that can be named is not the eternal name. The Nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth; the Named is the mother of all things." Lao Tzu
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 20:29:22 GMT -5
Quite right. This is why I never give money to a beggar even though I know he is another me. I am not divided. I am humanity, and live with the pain of a divided world. I am not the same "divided self" as that theorized by Dr. J D Laing. The good doctor sees two self-identities within one person. He is compounding the madness you are inflicted with.
Well, I know it seems that way to you and satch, and reefs has expressed that opinion as well at times in the past. Certainly, the most visible instances of this actually are people doing as you say .. not "taking their reward in Heaven". Most people are people-peeps, so "always selfish" is a generally pervasive rule, but I'd say there's a matter of degree and nuance involved from instance to instance. A mix of intensity of different flavors of superiority complex or guilt or virtue signaling/approval seeking or goal orientation. In some people those are obviously very pronounced, and in others, quite muted.
It really is possible to help someone at your own expense without expecting anything in return and without the illusion that it's making the world a better place or you a better person. Just "THIS, THISING". And the question is fodder for yet another endless mind spin debate. In the abstract, the question is about free will. "Is it me giving the homeless guy a doughnut, or the universe giving the universe a doughnut? " Some unconscious seekers too smart for their own good might cry "context mix!". They're not wrong about that, but sometimes an existential context mix - like yours here - is actually the correct conceptual answer. You've really missed the point here. Everything we do is for the Self. We are Self (ish). All beings in the field of action are doing that which takes us towards greater happiness and fulfillment which is also the realization of the Self. Are you telling me that if you do something for someone else without any expectation of something in return that you don't feel good about it? It is Self (ish).
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 20:33:25 GMT -5
Quite right. This is why I never give money to a beggar even though I know he is another me. I am not divided. I am humanity, and live with the pain of a divided world. I am not the same "divided self" as that theorized by Dr. J D Laing. The good doctor sees two self-identities within one person. He is compounding the madness you are inflicted with.
That's not a valid argument for not giving money to a beggar. 😃 Since everything else you do is for selfish reasons why rule out this action? Whereas other actions which satisfy your own self and no other are selfish, giving money to a beggar is also for your own selfish reasons but you're also making someone else happy so there's more of a reason to give money to a beggar not less. Where I used to live, five years ago, there was a Hardees about a mile from my home. I like fast food, where there is no tip, I can sit and eat and read for an hour or two, sweet tea refills (but no tea anymore). I usually went Saturday or Sunday morning, had a steak biscuit or whatever was on sale, sometimes two at a good price. In winter I noticed there was an older black man, he was always drinking coffee. I never saw him eating. I asked him his name, he only said John. I finally asked him once if he had eaten anything. He said they (Hardees) gave him coffee, he said he hadn't eaten. So I gave him $2.00, to get something to eat. He thanked me, got his biscuit. He was usually there in the winter. I always gave him a little money for food. He was always alone. He looked retirement age, one morning I asked him how old he was. As I recall he was about 65. I asked him if he had ever applied for SS. He said no. I asked him if he had ever worked at a public job where he got a check and a withdrawal statement, a pay stub, to show he had paid into SS. He said no. He told me a little of his history, about coming down from the north many years ago. I figured he was there in winter to be out of the cold. I finally got up the courage and asked him if he was homeless. He just smiled at me, didn't say. There were woods nearby, I thought maybe he had a 'camp' nearby. I never smelled him, as I have sometimes when people don't know when to take a bath. I now live about 45 minutes from there. I don't eat biscuits anymore, I don't eat much meat. But one of these days I may go check on John. He would be about 72 now. Yes, there are tears...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 20:33:47 GMT -5
Freedom is isolation then? Wow, holy Ministry of Truth, Boatman! Here's the thing genius: there is no right answer. Comparison mind will spin endlessly on it. That's the nature of the existential mystery. It's endless confusion. You either give the homeless guy a doughnut or you don't. Nothing more, nothing less. The homeless guy gets nothing from me. Isolation to you is not the same as isolation for me. I am not just free from the homeless guy but also outside the Block Universe he inhabits. The homeless guy is me. I must not allow separation, and move away to become his benefactor. Â Â What did Consciousness do wrong to have you as one of its windows with such a distorted and sad view of life?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 20:40:50 GMT -5
That's not a valid argument for not giving money to a beggar. 😃 Since everything else you do is for selfish reasons why rule out this action? Whereas other actions which satisfy your own self and no other are selfish, giving money to a beggar is also for your own selfish reasons but you're also making someone else happy so there's more of a reason to give money to a beggar not less. Where I used to live, five years ago, there was a Hardees about a mile from my home. I like fast food, where there is no tip, I can sit and eat and read for an hour or two, sweet tea refills (but no tea anymore). I usually went Saturday or Sunday morning, had a steak biscuit or whatever was on sale, sometimes two at a good price. In winter I noticed there was an older black man, he was always drinking coffee. I never saw him eating. I asked him his name, he only said John. I finally asked him once if he had eaten anything. He said they (Hardees) gave him coffee, he said he hadn't eaten. So I gave him $2.00, to get something to eat. He thanked me, got his biscuit. He was usually there in the winter. I always gave him a little money for food. He was always alone. He looked retirement age, one morning I asked him how old he was. As I recall he was about 65. I asked him if he had ever applied for SS. He said no. I asked him if he had ever worked at a public job where he got a check and a withdrawal statement, a pay stub, to show he had paid into SS. He said no. He told me a little of his history, about coming down from the north many years ago. I figured he was there in winter to be out of the cold. I finally got up the courage and asked him if he was homeless. He just smiled at me, didn't say. There were woods nearby, I thought maybe he had a 'camp' nearby. I never smelled him, as I have sometimes when people don't know when to take a bath. I now live about 45 minutes from there. I don't eat biscuits anymore, I don't eat much meat. But one of these days I may go check on John. He would be about 72 now. Yes, there are tears... It's absolutely true what they say. Giving is better than receiving. Your story is a good example of Karma Yoga in action.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 20:45:18 GMT -5
The homeless guy gets nothing from me. Isolation to you is not the same as isolation for me. I am not just free from the homeless guy but also outside the Block Universe he inhabits. The homeless guy is me. I must not allow separation, and move away to become his benefactor. Â Â What did Consciousness do wrong to have you as one of its windows with such a distorted and sad view of life? My oldest daughter told me a story once about a guy who put carpet everywhere he walked to keep his feet from injury. She said the story goes, there is an easier way, most people just wear shoes. If it works for sree, it works. But there is an easier way. I read another story once. A man went up into the mountains once to meditate and conquer the self. He was there for years. He thought he had finally conquered self, so came down from the mountain. The same day he was walking along the pathway, got into an argument with a stranger about some nonsense. He turned around and went back to his mountain hut. If it works for sree, it works, until it doesn't.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2022 20:49:44 GMT -5
What did Consciousness do wrong to have you as one of its windows with such a distorted and sad view of life? My oldest daughter told me a story once about a guy who put carpet everywhere he walked to keep his feet from injury. She said the story goes, there is an easier way, most people just wear shoes. If it works for sree, it works. But there is an easier way. I read another story once. A man went up into the mountains once to meditate and conquer the self. He was there for years. He thought he had finally conquered self, so came down from the mountain. The same day he was walking along the pathway, got into an argument with a stranger about some nonsense. He turned around and went back to his mountain hut. If it works for sree, it works, until it doesn't. I've heard that story before about wearing shoes instead of covering the whole world with leather. It describes sree perfectly!
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 21:03:15 GMT -5
Where I used to live, five years ago, there was a Hardees about a mile from my home. I like fast food, where there is no tip, I can sit and eat and read for an hour or two, sweet tea refills (but no tea anymore). I usually went Saturday or Sunday morning, had a steak biscuit or whatever was on sale, sometimes two at a good price. In winter I noticed there was an older black man, he was always drinking coffee. I never saw him eating. I asked him his name, he only said John. I finally asked him once if he had eaten anything. He said they (Hardees) gave him coffee, he said he hadn't eaten. So I gave him $2.00, to get something to eat. He thanked me, got his biscuit. He was usually there in the winter. I always gave him a little money for food. He was always alone. He looked retirement age, one morning I asked him how old he was. As I recall he was about 65. I asked him if he had ever applied for SS. He said no. I asked him if he had ever worked at a public job where he got a check and a withdrawal statement, a pay stub, to show he had paid into SS. He said no. He told me a little of his history, about coming down from the north many years ago. I figured he was there in winter to be out of the cold. I finally got up the courage and asked him if he was homeless. He just smiled at me, didn't say. There were woods nearby, I thought maybe he had a 'camp' nearby. I never smelled him, as I have sometimes when people don't know when to take a bath. I now live about 45 minutes from there. I don't eat biscuits anymore, I don't eat much meat. But one of these days I may go check on John. He would be about 72 now. Yes, there are tears... It's absolutely true what they say. Giving is better than receiving. Your story is a good example of Karma Yoga in action. My grandmother had a brother who was a drunk and a street person in the city, Charlotte. So from an early age I heard stories about him from time to time. It stuck in my mind, so I've always had a soft heart for the homeless. I've also done service calls in the worst part of town, with my boss, he carried his gun, we would do for the realtor. I've seen the worst conditions I think it's possible for people to live in. I've been in kitchens where I've seen 40 roaches at a time, just nasty. There was a lady who lived in the area we did a service call once. She had at least 30 cats in the house, cat piss and poop everywhere, worst than chicken s*it, the worst smell in the world, I thought. (Beer farts are one step from chicken sh*t). Boss said, we won't be coming back here. Nursing homes are pretty bad too, the lowest of the low kind, they have a certain smell, very distinctive. The smell where you know you could never live there, but some people just end up where they end up. But once I found out John didn't have money for food, I couldn't not-buy.
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 21:07:13 GMT -5
My oldest daughter told me a story once about a guy who put carpet everywhere he walked to keep his feet from injury. She said the story goes, there is an easier way, most people just wear shoes. If it works for sree, it works. But there is an easier way. I read another story once. A man went up into the mountains once to meditate and conquer the self. He was there for years. He thought he had finally conquered self, so came down from the mountain. The same day he was walking along the pathway, got into an argument with a stranger about some nonsense. He turned around and went back to his mountain hut. If it works for sree, it works, until it doesn't. I've heard that story before about wearing shoes instead of covering the whole world with leather. It describes sree perfectly! Yea, that was it, leather, not carpet. But sree has solved that problem, he lives on a boat. .But I can't blame him. Suffering is a bi*ch.
|
|
|
Post by sree on Aug 21, 2022 21:07:37 GMT -5
Why the depression, stardust? You were in Colorado. 1975 was when you were into Krishnamurti, listening to his talks at Ojai.
Getting so down in the dumps to contemplate suicide is a horrid situation. Do you know that Elvis Presley read Krishnamurti? The guy who did his hair, the personal hair stylist of his gave him Krishnamurti books to read. Apparently, Elvis was like you: seeking meaning in life. Imagine, a guy with fame and fortune felt lost in this desolate Block Universe created by science. Anthony Bourdain's suicide surprised and disappointed me. I am a lover of the culinary world.
I do appreciate your willingness to share your life experience of pain. To me, human pain is why I could never focus on my own life which was quite pain-free. I see it as an opportunity to find the cause. As Krishnamurti said, those who are struggling don't have the leisure to look for the cause of suffering; while those who are wealthy don't care because they are distracted by their pleasures.
Yes, I read Krishnamurti from 1971-1976, mostly. 1980 is when I saw him in person, the 3 weeks. Explaining the pain would take a book. Basically I hated myself. The people here who are and were and have been OK with themselves, can't understand what it's like to actually hate self. I knew suicide didn't lead to the end of hate. The subtitle to the Huber book is Going Beyond Self-Hate. I was curious to see what she had to say about that. No, I didn't know Elvis read Krishnamurti. Cool. Do you think Elvis hated himself? This guy had everything: fame and fortune. He wasn't happy. He said that the Elvis persona wasn't him and his fans related with that persona not with "him".
|
|
|
Post by sree on Aug 21, 2022 21:23:50 GMT -5
You need a slap on the head to rid it of sadness, boatman. The other boatman emotions are: rage, lust, envy, sloth, pride, gluttony, and wrath. No you're thinking of "sins", not emotions. Too bad shame and being the cause of shame aren't considered a sin. I really think the Christians missed an opportunity there. No, I am not thinking of sins. Rage is an emotion. It's Sunday night. Somewhere in the city, rage is going to flare up and shots will be fired. Even here in this forum, I can sense rage firing off posts like bullets from guns. How many "spirits" have you shot, Laffy?
|
|
|
Post by sree on Aug 21, 2022 21:48:56 GMT -5
What sort of a life do you live, Laffy? I live like a sailboat in open sea, no other boats on the horizon even.
Being self-centered is to be cattle immersed in and be part of a herd. There is no compulsion to assume a center in a state of real nothingness.
More comparison mind. Forget about the boat. Those waters will drown you. Instead, start with the teacup. Try not to spill it so much. Easier if it's not so full up to the brim. Have you ever been out to sea on a sailboat? Do you even know what it is like? I have met people who told me that they have never seen the sea. I couldn't believe it! What is the nature of such a mind?
I don't sail far from land. I get seasick. Najib is the skipper of my boat. I would tell him to get us far enough, 50 miles or so; no sight of land anywhere on the horizon, and just drift, for days or weeks before heading back to restock on supplies, fresh water and fuel. I have GPS-enabled state of the art navigation system, the kind real sailors spit on. Being free from toxic human energy is healing. Najib is ok, a simple guy who doesn't foul up that sense of silence.
|
|
|
Post by sree on Aug 21, 2022 22:00:30 GMT -5
Quite right. This is why I never give money to a beggar even though I know he is another me. I am not divided. I am humanity, and live with the pain of a divided world. I am not the same "divided self" as that theorized by Dr. J D Laing. The good doctor sees two self-identities within one person. He is compounding the madness you are inflicted with.
That's not a valid argument for not giving money to a beggar. 😃 Since everything else you do is for selfish reasons why rule out this action? Whereas other actions which satisfy your own self and no other are selfish, giving money to a beggar is also for your own selfish reasons but you're also making someone else happy so there's more of a reason to give money to a beggar not less. Everything I do is for the body. I am the self, the tender of the body. I have no business giving money to beggars, a symptom of evil in society. I cannot be connected to that evil. No politics, remember? Not in here and not out there in the real world.
|
|