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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 17:08:34 GMT -5
I don't know what the correct answer is. My only option is to withdraw. I am aware of my boatman incarnation and live in isolation from the herd. This allows me more space and gives me the ability to withdraw from conflicts. This is what I mean by being free of the self. Freedom is isolation then? Wow, holy Ministry of Truth, Boatman! Here's the thing genius: there is no right answer. Comparison mind will spin endlessly on it. That's the nature of the existential mystery. It's endless confusion. You either give the homeless guy a doughnut or you don't. Nothing more, nothing less. You're beating up sree when has been most vulnerable? Beating up people is not the answer.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 17:11:13 GMT -5
I like specificity. You do too, we just don't regularly agree. You're married, how often do you change your wife's mind? I'm sure she would say, I've come to understand your POV. What takes place when you change your mind? Do you ever just accept someone else's view? Yes. Sometimes.Look, just because you're not conscious of anyone ever having changed your mind or vice-versa doesn't mean it isn't possible between other people. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you're just particularly stubborn? I'm saying the change comes from the person, not from the agent of change.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 17:23:14 GMT -5
Nah, you had some help, mostly not even along the way, but at the start. You mean the body? You perceive the human being as the human body.
I was at the golf range driving golf balls the other day. Seated at a nearby bench to take a break, I was looking at a guy on his mat with his six year old son on another mat hitting golf balls. The kid was talking to his dad. It struck me that the kid was a clone and an extension of his father, not just biologically but consciousness-wise as well. One organism split into two like an amoeba. One boatman becoming two.
Yes. I have a niece who has a son who is the "clone" of the father, he's actually the step-father. He is 100% a fundamentalist Christian, born again. He is a very nice kid, very smart, multiple talents. But this week they sent him off to freshman year of college, took him, he's about 2 hours from home. The poor guy, every day he's going to get hit right in the nose with a 2 x 4. I just don't think he is prepared for what he's going to encounter. But yes, genes and also memes are passed on. The son has 4 years to study and digest, find out who he is. He will be a success in life, but at what cost? I will make an exception to what I just old laughter. Many times, maybe half the time, kids up until the age of 18, believe their parents, take on their parents thoughts. The one's who don't, who become their own person, who rebel, probably succeed earlier.
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2022 17:25:26 GMT -5
But sometimes, especially in the context of action, they move things, right? There's information there. You keep repeating the same fallacy over and over again despite that multiple people have explained it to you in different ways, many times, over the years. The quiet mind of a man who has mastered his cultural self is not the same as the mind of someone who has realized the existential illusion of personhood. I'm going to say this once more, print it out and stick it beside your computer. I have never said the cultural self has to be mastered. I have said the cultural self has to eventually be eliminated. Eliminated. Now, eliminated doesn't mean the memory of-it, gone, that the memories are forgotten. But then, you can wear it as a mask, when necessary. Then, the cultural self does force one to act in a certain way. This is where zazeniac is getting to, actually free from self. He has written about it. In a nutshell: To awaken, to die, to be born. To awaken is merely the first step. To die is the second step. And it has to happen in that order. I never argue my view, I just share. Yes, cultural mastery was my way of putting it. I understand that you think you're referring to something else, but all these years of your strawmanning make it clear that you're just imagining what that "elimination" means, what that "death before death" means.
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2022 17:27:39 GMT -5
No you're thinking of "sins", not emotions. Too bad shame and being the cause of shame aren't considered a sin. I really think the Christians missed an opportunity there. Yes, shame is really the worst. But it's not really a sin. Shame is something done to someone, not something a person does. Shame is a result of getting a boatload of crap dumped on one, other people's crap. Yes, being the cause of shame is monstrous. The cause of shame is probably the mortar of the cultural self. The Christian cultural notion of sin is in itself sinful, but they're really doing the best they can, and despite some of the historic carnage, I would never shame anyone for adhering to it.
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2022 17:29:26 GMT -5
Freedom is isolation then? Wow, holy Ministry of Truth, Boatman! Here's the thing genius: there is no right answer. Comparison mind will spin endlessly on it. That's the nature of the existential mystery. It's endless confusion. You either give the homeless guy a doughnut or you don't. Nothing more, nothing less. You're beating up sree when has been most vulnerable? Beating up people is not the answer. Oh, boo hoo poor little defenseless sree. You think ginning up some fake victim-drama is the " answer", then?
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2022 17:30:16 GMT -5
Yes. Sometimes.Look, just because you're not conscious of anyone ever having changed your mind or vice-versa doesn't mean it isn't possible between other people. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you're just particularly stubborn? I'm saying the change comes from the person, not from the agent of change. Are you present to how you're just inviting me into yet another endless mind-spin centered on the existential question?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 17:33:10 GMT -5
I have a book of teachings of the teacher of Niz. He discusses 4 different bodies, each of a finer energy. So this isn't new, Niz knew all about it, was taught extensively by his own teacher. The embryo is just the next-level body (in embryo). That's why I say regularly, there is more. There is always more. The alchemical Taoists write about this, about becoming immortal. This doesn't mean the physical body. It means one can survive the death of the physical body, it means individualized consciousness can survive. That's just so you won't surmise, or will not be pretty sure. It's not God-like transcendence. Yeah, ok, sure, I was honestly just trying to summarize for tenka based on my memory. Not going to try to change your mind about any of this. No problem. If one is not interested it difficult to absorb a lot. I have put a lot here. But I have very very rarely mentioned God. God is basically beyond our comprehension. E used to accuse me regularly of having a personal God. That just didn't remotely compute. Everything I write about is really nuts & bolts, not transcendence. Everything is about the transformation of energy, not transcendence. I'll just stop there...
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 17:35:55 GMT -5
I'm going to say this once more, print it out and stick it beside your computer. I have never said the cultural self has to be mastered. I have said the cultural self has to eventually be eliminated. Eliminated. Now, eliminated doesn't mean the memory of-it, gone, that the memories are forgotten. But then, you can wear it as a mask, when necessary. Then, the cultural self does force one to act in a certain way. This is where zazeniac is getting to, actually free from self. He has written about it. In a nutshell: To awaken, to die, to be born. To awaken is merely the first step. To die is the second step. And it has to happen in that order. I never argue my view, I just share. Yes, cultural mastery was my way of putting it. I understand that you think you're referring to something else, but all these years of your strawmanning make it clear that you're just imagining what that "elimination" means, what that "death before death" means. I can't help that, how you take what I write.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 17:41:44 GMT -5
Yes, shame is really the worst. But it's not really a sin. Shame is something done to someone, not something a person does. Shame is a result of getting a boatload of crap dumped on one, other people's crap. Yes, being the cause of shame is monstrous. The cause of shame is probably the mortar of the cultural self. The Christian cultural notion of sin is in itself sinful, but they're really doing the best they can, and despite some of the historic carnage, I would never shame anyone for adhering to it. Sin is a very heavily loaded word. Sin means just to miss the mark. The archer aims for the target, misses the bullseye, that a sin, which merely means he missed the mark. Original sin is a disastrous plague on the west, an error.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 17:43:08 GMT -5
You're beating up sree when has been most vulnerable? Beating up people is not the answer. Oh, boo hoo poor little defenseless sree. You think ginning up some fake victim-drama is the " answer", then? I'm just saying you can't help being laughter.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 17:45:32 GMT -5
I'm saying the change comes from the person, not from the agent of change. Are you present to how you're just inviting me into yet another endless mind-spin centered on the existential question? I'm just sharing my view. If a person merely adopts a certain POV, no matter where it comes from, it's going to be superficial. I don't know how that's not clear.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 17:55:39 GMT -5
My second guess. You are a Leo. This would give you the possibility of a Virgo Mercury. Explains everything. 😀
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Post by sree on Aug 21, 2022 19:10:15 GMT -5
I don't know what the correct answer is. My only option is to withdraw. I am aware of my boatman incarnation and live in isolation from the herd. This allows me more space and gives me the ability to withdraw from conflicts. This is what I mean by being free of the self. In April of 1975 I had come back to NC from Colorado, basically because of depression. Had been back a little while. My parents had gone away for the weekend, I was alone. I didn't want to see anybody or talk to anybody, I knew they were coming back Sunday night. So I left to go to the beach, about 3 hours away. Tortured. I was at the beach a few days, knew I had to go back. Every tractor-trailer I passed, considered crossing the center line. The only thing that kept me alive was the knowledge that it would solve nothing, that *~*something*~* would reincarnate with the same unsolved problems. So I stayed alive. Almost a year later I had another crisis. I said to myself, I don't care if I live or die. When I realized what I had said, that was the turning point. I considered, if I don't care, I might as well live. That turned it around, was the beginning. Within a month I had a 40-hours-a-week job. You can live your life however you want to, but that's escapism. Sorry sree, that's not being free of self. Don't wait 30 years to be farmer, to get really free. I don't know if there is such a thing as reincarnation. But I give it a 99% chance there is *something like* reincarnation. Now, sree will never live again, sree is the cultural self that dies when the body dies, or shortly afterwards. The Tibetans know all about this as the bardo. But the vasanas and samskaras continue, and they form a new body and a new cultural self is formed. You are intimate with suffering, don't want to suffer anymore. But there is really no way over, under or around suffering. The sree-cultural-self is the source of the suffering. You can't imagine what's on the other side of suffering. Just face every moment of life. In the midst of suffering you can fine a *something* that doesn't suffer. Escape is not escape. Escape is just postponement. When I ordered the book by Cheri Huber, There Is Nothing Wrong With You, a few weeks ago, I didn't know why I bought it. I have about 5-7 of her other books, never felt the need to by that one. As I read I realized, this is for sree. I posted some quotes. Withdrawing from conflict is most excellent. When you are calm and relaxed and there is no conflict within, easy to withdraw on the outside. But you aren't there, yet. Eventually, you can be completely free of conflict within, no suffering. Until then, you need the exterior problems to reveal what's in you. Only by seeing what you are can you deal with what-you-are. But as I said earlier, you are very lucky. Most people escape conflict by other means. But avoidance isn't the way either. You are lucky to have pain to point the way. Why the depression, stardust? You were in Colorado. 1975 was when you were into Krishnamurti, listening to his talks at Ojai.
Getting so down in the dumps to contemplate suicide is a horrid situation. Do you know that Elvis Presley read Krishnamurti? The guy who did his hair, the personal hair stylist of his gave him Krishnamurti books to read. Apparently, Elvis was like you: seeking meaning in life. Imagine, a guy with fame and fortune felt lost in this desolate Block Universe created by science. Anthony Bourdain's suicide surprised and disappointed me. I am a lover of the culinary world.
I do appreciate your willingness to share your life experience of pain. To me, human pain is why I could never focus on my own life which was quite pain-free. I see it as an opportunity to find the cause. As Krishnamurti said, those who are struggling don't have the leisure to look for the cause of suffering; while those who are wealthy don't care because they are distracted by their pleasures.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 20:00:21 GMT -5
In April of 1975 I had come back to NC from Colorado, basically because of depression. Had been back a little while. My parents had gone away for the weekend, I was alone. I didn't want to see anybody or talk to anybody, I knew they were coming back Sunday night. So I left to go to the beach, about 3 hours away. Tortured. I was at the beach a few days, knew I had to go back. Every tractor-trailer I passed, considered crossing the center line. The only thing that kept me alive was the knowledge that it would solve nothing, that *~*something*~* would reincarnate with the same unsolved problems. So I stayed alive. Almost a year later I had another crisis. I said to myself, I don't care if I live or die. When I realized what I had said, that was the turning point. I considered, if I don't care, I might as well live. That turned it around, was the beginning. Within a month I had a 40-hours-a-week job. You can live your life however you want to, but that's escapism. Sorry sree, that's not being free of self. Don't wait 30 years to be farmer, to get really free. I don't know if there is such a thing as reincarnation. But I give it a 99% chance there is *something like* reincarnation. Now, sree will never live again, sree is the cultural self that dies when the body dies, or shortly afterwards. The Tibetans know all about this as the bardo. But the vasanas and samskaras continue, and they form a new body and a new cultural self is formed. You are intimate with suffering, don't want to suffer anymore. But there is really no way over, under or around suffering. The sree-cultural-self is the source of the suffering. You can't imagine what's on the other side of suffering. Just face every moment of life. In the midst of suffering you can fine a *something* that doesn't suffer. Escape is not escape. Escape is just postponement. When I ordered the book by Cheri Huber, There Is Nothing Wrong With You, a few weeks ago, I didn't know why I bought it. I have about 5-7 of her other books, never felt the need to by that one. As I read I realized, this is for sree. I posted some quotes. Withdrawing from conflict is most excellent. When you are calm and relaxed and there is no conflict within, easy to withdraw on the outside. But you aren't there, yet. Eventually, you can be completely free of conflict within, no suffering. Until then, you need the exterior problems to reveal what's in you. Only by seeing what you are can you deal with what-you-are. But as I said earlier, you are very lucky. Most people escape conflict by other means. But avoidance isn't the way either. You are lucky to have pain to point the way. Why the depression, stardust? You were in Colorado. 1975 was when you were into Krishnamurti, listening to his talks at Ojai.
Getting so down in the dumps to contemplate suicide is a horrid situation. Do you know that Elvis Presley read Krishnamurti? The guy who did his hair, the personal hair stylist of his gave him Krishnamurti books to read. Apparently, Elvis was like you: seeking meaning in life. Imagine, a guy with fame and fortune felt lost in this desolate Block Universe created by science. Anthony Bourdain's suicide surprised and disappointed me. I am a lover of the culinary world.
I do appreciate your willingness to share your life experience of pain. To me, human pain is why I could never focus on my own life which was quite pain-free. I see it as an opportunity to find the cause. As Krishnamurti said, those who are struggling don't have the leisure to look for the cause of suffering; while those who are wealthy don't care because they are distracted by their pleasures.
Yes, I read Krishnamurti from 1971-1976, mostly. 1980 is when I saw him in person, the 3 weeks. Explaining the pain would take a book. Basically I hated myself. The people here who are and were and have been OK with themselves, can't understand what it's like to actually hate self. I knew suicide didn't lead to the end of hate. The subtitle to the Huber book is Going Beyond Self-Hate. I was curious to see what she had to say about that. But I learned to live in time, that one could not make a good decision in the moment. It's pretty easy to write about (my) self. My teacher told me to finish the book. But he also told me in a round about way that I would need to talk to people who read the book who wrote or approached me. That would be the hard part. I like my aloneness too. No, I didn't know Elvis read Krishnamurti. Cool.
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