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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 16:05:06 GMT -5
Yes, sure, people change their mind. I'm saying one person cannot change another person's mind. A person can change their mind from another's influence. But if a person doesn't "digest" the info, make it their own, it's just a superficial shift. If someone merely adopts another's POV, they are subject to another shift under other influences. I'm saying all real change is internal. You're dwaddling. I like specificity. You do too, we just don't regularly agree. You're married, how often do you change your wife's mind? I'm sure she would say, I've come to understand your POV. What takes place when you change your mind? Do you ever just accept someone else's view?
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2022 16:06:24 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure what he means by that is his belief that it's possible for the individual to become perfected, and from what I've read from him in the past, he envisions this as some sort of God-like transcendence. I have a book of teachings of the teacher of Niz. He discusses 4 different bodies, each of a finer energy. So this isn't new, Niz knew all about it, was taught extensively by his own teacher. The embryo is just the next-level body (in embryo). That's why I say regularly, there is more. There is always more. The alchemical Taoists write about this, about becoming immortal. This doesn't mean the physical body. It means one can survive the death of the physical body, it means individualized consciousness can survive. That's just so you won't surmise, or will not be pretty sure. It's not God-like transcendence. Yeah, ok, sure, I was honestly just trying to summarize for tenka based on my memory. Not going to try to change your mind about any of this.
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Post by sree on Aug 21, 2022 16:07:22 GMT -5
I don't know what the correct answer is. My only option is to withdraw. I am aware of my boatman incarnation and live in isolation from the herd. This allows me more space and gives me the ability to withdraw from conflicts. This is what I mean by being free of the self. Freedom is isolation then? Wow, holy Ministry of Truth, Boatman! Here's the thing genius: there is no right answer. Comparison mind will spin endlessly on it. That's the nature of the existential mystery. It's endless confusion. You either give the homeless guy a doughnut or you don't. Nothing more, nothing less. The homeless guy gets nothing from me. Isolation to you is not the same as isolation for me. I am not just free from the homeless guy but also outside the Block Universe he inhabits. The homeless guy is me. I must not allow separation, and move away to become his benefactor.
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2022 16:08:23 GMT -5
You're dwaddling. I like specificity. You do too, we just don't regularly agree. You're married, how often do you change your wife's mind? I'm sure she would say, I've come to understand your POV. What takes place when you change your mind? Do you ever just accept someone else's view? Yes. Sometimes.Look, just because you're not conscious of anyone ever having changed your mind or vice-versa doesn't mean it isn't possible between other people. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe you're just particularly stubborn?
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2022 16:08:59 GMT -5
Freedom is isolation then? Wow, holy Ministry of Truth, Boatman! Here's the thing genius: there is no right answer. Comparison mind will spin endlessly on it. That's the nature of the existential mystery. It's endless confusion. You either give the homeless guy a doughnut or you don't. Nothing more, nothing less. The homeless guy gets nothing from me. Isolation to you is not the same as isolation for me. I am not just free from the homeless guy but also outside the Block Universe he inhabits. The homeless guy is me. I must not allow separation, and move away to become his benefactor. (** shakes head sadly **)
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 16:09:34 GMT -5
This business of the new birth is not new in the NT, not new with Jesus. When Jesus talked to Nicodemus in John 3 about being born from above (of the spirit), Nicodemus took him literally, he said, we can't go back into our Mother's womb. Now, the NT says Nicodemus was the preeminent teacher in Israel. So Jesus said, How can you be THE Rabbi in Israel and not know what I'm talking about? So this was known previous to Jesus. Fundamentalists Christians do not understand what being born from above means. It's the same in India, the same is called being twice born. You cease to identify with the cultural self society has put on you. That's a kind of death. This is what everybody means by the self is illusory. It is. But the NDist stop here. They say it's OK for the manifestations of the old self to continue, the whatever still inhabits the body (zd says the Whole) just no longer ~identifies~ with that old self. sdp says as long as there are manifestations of the old self, the journey is not over. But here it gets complicated, everybody has a little different view. So sdp pretty-much stands alone, here. But to answer your question, the true self is a mere seed, an embryo. Small, fragile, innocent, undeveloped. This is written about extensively in Taoism, alchemical Taoism. The very same. They even call the potential of the new self, the embryo. Check it out. (Search alchemical Taoism). But this is getting long... But you see, this is something you can explain in mechanistic terms and discern from the outside looking in. This isn't the existential realization that zd, reefs and enigma wrote about. It's quite possible for someone suffering from the existential delusion to get very present to the nature of the cultural self. This is what the stoics were all about. The death before dying is far more profound than that. Yes, words are tiny things. Words are just the wake of the boat.
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2022 16:13:22 GMT -5
But you see, this is something you can explain in mechanistic terms and discern from the outside looking in. This isn't the existential realization that zd, reefs and enigma wrote about. It's quite possible for someone suffering from the existential delusion to get very present to the nature of the cultural self. This is what the stoics were all about. The death before dying is far more profound than that. Yes, words are tiny things. Words are just the wake of the boat. But sometimes, especially in the context of action, they move things, right? There's information there. You keep repeating the same fallacy over and over again despite that multiple people have explained it to you in different ways, many times, over the years. The quiet mind of a man who has mastered his cultural self is not the same as the mind of someone who has realized the existential illusion of personhood.
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Post by sree on Aug 21, 2022 16:22:12 GMT -5
It's the natural bent of the boatman in the Block Universe. I am another boatman but not as self-centered. Do you really believe that? Let's take a poll of the other you's to get a window on it from the Kollective Konsciousness, 'cause to me you seem like a Volga Boatman. What sort of a life do you live, Laffy? I live like a sailboat in open sea, no other boats on the horizon even.
Being self-centered is to be cattle immersed in and be part of a herd. There is no compulsion to assume a center in a state of real nothingness.
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Post by sree on Aug 21, 2022 16:26:40 GMT -5
Where is tenka? We need his rapid fire meditation.
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Post by sree on Aug 21, 2022 16:35:33 GMT -5
The homeless guy gets nothing from me. Isolation to you is not the same as isolation for me. I am not just free from the homeless guy but also outside the Block Universe he inhabits. The homeless guy is me. I must not allow separation, and move away to become his benefactor. (** shakes head sadly **)You need a slap on the head to rid it of sadness, boatman. The other boatman emotions are: rage, lust, envy, sloth, pride, gluttony, and wrath.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 16:42:40 GMT -5
Well, I know it seems that way to you and satch, and reefs has expressed that opinion as well at times in the past. Certainly, the most visible instances of this actually are people doing as you say .. not "taking their reward in Heaven". Most people are people-peeps, so "always selfish" is a generally pervasive rule, but I'd say there's a matter of degree and nuance involved from instance to instance. A mix of intensity of different flavors of superiority complex or guilt or virtue signaling/approval seeking or goal orientation. In some people those are obviously very pronounced, and in others, quite muted.
It really is possible to help someone at your own expense without expecting anything in return and without the illusion that it's making the world a better place or you a better person. Just "THIS, THISING". And the question is fodder for yet another endless mind spin debate. In the abstract, the question is about free will. "Is it me giving the homeless guy a doughnut, or the universe giving the universe a doughnut? " Some unconscious seekers too smart for their own good might cry "context mix!". They're not wrong about that, but sometimes an existential context mix - like yours here - is actually the correct conceptual answer. I don't know what the correct answer is. My only option is to withdraw. I am aware of my boatman incarnation and live in isolation from the herd. This allows me more space and gives me the ability to withdraw from conflicts. This is what I mean by being free of the self. In April of 1975 I had come back to NC from Colorado, basically because of depression. Had been back a little while. My parents had gone away for the weekend, I was alone. I didn't want to see anybody or talk to anybody, I knew they were coming back Sunday night. So I left to go to the beach, about 3 hours away. Tortured. I was at the beach a few days, knew I had to go back. Every tractor-trailer I passed, considered crossing the center line. The only thing that kept me alive was the knowledge that it would solve nothing, that *~*something*~* would reincarnate with the same unsolved problems. So I stayed alive. Almost a year later I had another crisis. I said to myself, I don't care if I live or die. When I realized what I had said, that was the turning point. I considered, if I don't care, I might as well live. That turned it around, was the beginning. Within a month I had a 40-hours-a-week job. You can live your life however you want to, but that's escapism. Sorry sree, that's not being free of self. Don't wait 30 years to be farmer, to get really free. I don't know if there is such a thing as reincarnation. But I give it a 99% chance there is *something like* reincarnation. Now, sree will never live again, sree is the cultural self that dies when the body dies, or shortly afterwards. The Tibetans know all about this as the bardo. But the vasanas and samskaras continue, and they form a new body and a new cultural self is formed. You are intimate with suffering, don't want to suffer anymore. But there is really no way over, under or around suffering. The sree-cultural-self is the source of the suffering. You can't imagine what's on the other side of suffering. Just face every moment of life. In the midst of suffering you can fine a *something* that doesn't suffer. Escape is not escape. Escape is just postponement. When I ordered the book by Cheri Huber, There Is Nothing Wrong With You, a few weeks ago, I didn't know why I bought it. I have about 5-7 of her other books, never felt the need to by that one. As I read I realized, this is for sree. I posted some quotes. Withdrawing from conflict is most excellent. When you are calm and relaxed and there is no conflict within, easy to withdraw on the outside. But you aren't there, yet. Eventually, you can be completely free of conflict within, no suffering. Until then, you need the exterior problems to reveal what's in you. Only by seeing what you are can you deal with what-you-are. But as I said earlier, you are very lucky. Most people escape conflict by other means. But avoidance isn't the way either. You are lucky to have pain to point the way.
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2022 16:50:28 GMT -5
(** shakes head sadly **) You need a slap on the head to rid it of sadness, boatman. The other boatman emotions are: rage, lust, envy, sloth, pride, gluttony, and wrath. No you're thinking of "sins", not emotions. Too bad shame and being the cause of shame aren't considered a sin. I really think the Christians missed an opportunity there.
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Post by laughter on Aug 21, 2022 16:52:18 GMT -5
Do you really believe that? Let's take a poll of the other you's to get a window on it from the Kollective Konsciousness, 'cause to me you seem like a Volga Boatman. What sort of a life do you live, Laffy? I live like a sailboat in open sea, no other boats on the horizon even.
Being self-centered is to be cattle immersed in and be part of a herd. There is no compulsion to assume a center in a state of real nothingness.
More comparison mind. Forget about the boat. Those waters will drown you. Instead, start with the teacup. Try not to spill it so much. Easier if it's not so full up to the brim.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 16:57:49 GMT -5
Yes, words are tiny things. Words are just the wake of the boat. But sometimes, especially in the context of action, they move things, right? There's information there. You keep repeating the same fallacy over and over again despite that multiple people have explained it to you in different ways, many times, over the years. The quiet mind of a man who has mastered his cultural self is not the same as the mind of someone who has realized the existential illusion of personhood. I'm going to say this once more, print it out and stick it beside your computer. I have never said the cultural self has to be mastered. I have said the cultural self has to eventually be eliminated. Eliminated. Now, eliminated doesn't mean the memory of-it, gone, that the memories are forgotten. But then, you can wear it as a mask, when necessary. Then, the cultural self does force one to act in a certain way. This is where zazeniac is getting to, actually free from self. He has written about it. In a nutshell: To awaken, to die, to be born. To awaken is merely the first step. To die is the second step. And it has to happen in that order. I never argue my view, I just share.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Aug 21, 2022 17:04:30 GMT -5
You need a slap on the head to rid it of sadness, boatman. The other boatman emotions are: rage, lust, envy, sloth, pride, gluttony, and wrath. No you're thinking of "sins", not emotions. Too bad shame and being the cause of shame aren't considered a sin. I really think the Christians missed an opportunity there. Yes, shame is really the worst. But it's not really a sin. Shame is something done to someone, not something a person does. Shame is a result of getting a boatload of crap dumped on one, other people's crap. Yes, being the cause of shame is monstrous. The cause of shame is probably the mortar of the cultural self.
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