Vegetarian or Not

[zendancer]

Luminate: Welcome to the board.

You wrote:

I believe people are largely on the physical earth for the experience and opportunity to learn. I hadn't thought about it before, but I guess I believe the same with animals and fish.

Just for fun, you might ask yourself why you believe that? Other people could say, "people are here just to have fun," or, "people are here for no reason at all," or, "people are here to play a role in a cosmic morality game," Etc. What would it feel like to live without any beliefs?

[jimmytantric]

Maybe we,re not here to experience anything? Maybe we are nothing more than the perception of what sees!

[luminateartist]

Just for fun zendancer?

hmmm......

well.......

ahhh.... Hey! That is fun!

Not sure if I could use a digestion period, or a gestation period, but either way, I think the rest of the day could be interesting.......

[klaus]

Does a cat know it's a cat, a fish a fish?

Surely they are conscious, but we have one thing they don't have: an ego.

They have no problem with non-dual nature.

[zendancer]

Luminate: That's right! If you get rid of all beliefs, I guarantee you'll have more fun. Beliefs are like dead weights. When we throw-em away, everything lightens up. That's why we laughed so much when we were children.

Klaus: I like dogs, but I think cats may be more enlightened. They seem very self-actualized, and they don't care what anybody thinks about them.

[karen]

How do we all know other animals don't have their own version of an ego?

[jimmytantric]

Karen- And how do we know that giraffes don't fly? And maybe beetle bugs sing opera to themselves and fish write Dylan Thomas and Walt Whitman poetry! BTW I hope I didn't offend any insect lovers! Wait a minute, I forgot, WE can't be offended-silly me. Please don't take me serious Karen just kidding. PS- Row, row, row your boat, GENTLY down the stream---merrily, merrily, merrily, ( that's 4 Merrile's BTW), LIFE is but a dream! Don't forget to sing in the shower.

[lightmystic]

I have to respectfully disagree. When animals are suffering, they believe THEY are suffering, they just don't have the mental intricacy to create complex stories about it. If you've ever gotten to know the personalities of any animals, you can see that they have all kinds of issues that they work through or don't.

It's true that cats are more stoic, and have more Awareness of other realms, but dogs are more in the moment. I'm not sure that one could be put above the other, aside from personal taste (I like cats for their simple, unintentional insight). The common link is they both thing THEY are the actors. Complete mind identification.....

It's said that human beings are the only ones complex enough that they are able to actually see through the illusion. And that sounds right, as this plane of existence is the densest, and humans are so complex that, if they can see through the mistake of the intellect here, then they can see through it anywhere....and then it's realized that individuality never existed.

But all beings, unless self realized, believe themselves to be individualized to some extent.....

Feb 9, 2010 17:45:50 GMT -5 klaus said:

Does a cat know it's a cat, a fish a fish?

Surely they are conscious, but we have one thing they don't have: an ego.

They have no problem with non-dual nature.

[zendancer]

LM: I see no evidence that animals believe anything. If they suffer, they just suffer. Some animals (judging from recent scientific experiments) appear to have a rudimentary intellect and the ability to manipulate images and symbols, but only a very few show any evidence of self awareness. Even in those rare cases, I doubt that anything similar to ego exists because I suspect that it takes prolonged thought and the reinforcement of internal speech to create the sense of being a separate entity acting in an externalized world. It would be interesting to know how the smartest animals would perform on the Piaget tests of object permanence, transposition, etc. I was joking about cats, and agree with Klaus that the world they perceive is essentially non-dual. If there is any evidence to the contrary, I would certainly be interested in hearing about it.

[karen]

Sounds like a lot of speculation (in both directions) to me.

On an interesting side note that has got nothing to do with anything.

[lightmystic]

Hey ZD,

Well, I have never done any outside research, although I'm sure it can be found. But I've been able to communicate directly with animals (and plants, other beings, etc.) for a long time. Each type of animal surely has a different level of complexity of intellect, but the basic mistake of the intellect is always there. They may not be able to frame it intellectually, but there is the subtle, deep seated, emotional belief that they exist, that they are separate individuals. Also, animals react differently to different situations in life based on their issues. Abused animals cower for a long time, just like humans, and then slowly start to open up when they receive love and attention, just like humans. There are a LOT of correlations, and I don't see that complexity of brain functioning is necessary for a sense of separation. The shear intensity of sensory input makes that a logical conclusion of separateness...even though it's an incorrect one. It does take the complexity of the human mind, it seems to really examine those beliefs though and get to the bottom of it. I have not yet seen capacity for Enlightenment in any other being than humans.....

Cats definitely don't think about it as much, as many animals don't. And, as always, everyone is already perceiving nondually, it's just a question of whether they believe the thoughts about individuality or not. And, although their thoughts are not as complex as humans, they are still there, and fully emotionally invested in. They have not way to recognize that distinction between them and and the mind. They have no way to recognize the inherent infinity of life in the most concrete way, although they are surely experiencing all the time to some degree, just like everyone is. But it's a question of how much they recognize it.

I actually remember entering the womb, and feeling incredibly limited. There was a lot of anger, and betrayal, and feeling of separateness, all without any words or concepts to convey them. The mind does not need language to form concepts. They are already there. The idea that we are separate people are what gives rise to birth in the first place in my experience.

Now, to go the other way, it's true that the animal kingdom is more in touch with nature in a sense. It has no choice. And, with our complex minds and understandings, there is a lot of thought that if we were more in touch with nature than we would get it. And that's true to some extent, as nature perfectly exemplifies the natural flow of life as a model at all times. That said, I've seen nature shows where people would go do a video documentary on african tribes that literally live as nomads, in harmony with nature. And they were in tune in many ways, as animals are, but they were not more aware. They were just as petty and small minded as people we would see in big cities, just in very different ways. They just had DIFFERENT issues. Kind of the same with animals from what I've seen. They are simpler, less complex, but they have the same issues that we do in their own way...and the more you get to know them, the more their personality shines through. And then you can really see their personality structure, which includes their egos....

Feb 10, 2010 13:37:33 GMT -5 zendancer said:

LM: I see no evidence that animals believe anything. If they suffer, they just suffer. Some animals (judging from recent scientific experiments) appear to have a rudimentary intellect and the ability to manipulate images and symbols, but only a very few show any evidence of self awareness. Even in those rare cases, I doubt that anything similar to ego exists because I suspect that it takes prolonged thought and the reinforcement of internal speech to create the sense of being a separate entity acting in an externalized world. It would be interesting to know how the smartest animals would perform on the Piaget tests of object permanence, transposition, etc. I was joking about cats, and agree with Klaus that the world they perceive is essentially non-dual. If there is any evidence to the contrary, I would certainly be interested in hearing about it.

[Portto]

Hi Lightmystic! Nice post!
My experience with animals is exactly the same as yours, so I really enjoyed reading your post.
However, this may be a reflection of the individual mind!
There's no way of knowing it for sure, but the complexity that we see in the world is quite the same as the current complexity of the mind.
This may be an explanation for Zendancer's observation. His mind may be quieter.

[lightmystic]

Thanks porto. I happen to have spent a great portion of my life talking with animals and other parts of nature directly, but that's kind of a relative ability that came up. It really has nothing to do with Awakening necessarily. So, surely ZD sees that there is none other than his own being, but in terms of actual details about how different realms work, the functioning of different creatures, etc. it's the kind of thing that there really is no experience of any of that unless there is a reason to have that. And then there is experience of it....
So, not to put words in his mouth, but it sounds like, from his post, that ZD just doesn't really know either way in terms of direct experience. And there's no reason necessarily that he should. I'm sure that he has clarity about all kinds of parts of the functioning of life that I don't have......

[Portto]

This is getting very interesting, Lightmystic.
Your direct experience is so different from Zendancer's.
You can see so many unusual things...

[zendancer]

Porto: Yes, I'm sort of a one-trick pony. It may sound boring, but my job is to give the same advice over and over, "Come out of the mind and spend more time in presence. Shift awareness from thoughts to what can be seen and heard." I've never seen auras, never communicated with animals or plants, and my memories only go back to about the age of four or five. I have enough trouble remembering what happened last week! LOL. Everyday life is pretty ordinary; it is not special.