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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2021 21:36:34 GMT -5
Awareness never changes, so there can never be more awareness or less awareness. Only that which awareness is aware of changes. There is either awareness of the actual or there is awareness of what is imagined. Awareness can be aware of what is seen, heard, felt, etc, or awareness can be aware of ideas, images, or symbols. Awareness can also be aware of awareness in the absence of all thoughts and perceptions. If I understand correctly what you mean by awareness, then awareness changes. That is the crux of evolvement. I think we differ in respect to what more or less means. You seem to talk in quantitative terms, while in my model awareness evolves qualitatively. A good comparison is with the way image files are downloaded; this is observable on a slower connection (which is the case with our awareness evolvement). --- see bellow. Even if you overcome the training wheels of time and space, as well as your limiting beliefs both the primary ones (you are born with, in your subconscious) and the secondary ones (that you accumulate consciously and unconsciously, a.k.a. get hypnotized), your awareness, although able to access the whole "picture", it can make sense of it only vaguely. This vagueness diminishing is the awareness evolvement, and takes an infinite number of iterations, as the pure clarity is infinite. In my model, awareness changes as the " interlaced" image. Bingo. But zd doesn't consider it is the case that there is evolvement, period. I say the evolution of consciousness is the ability to ~take in~ more of What Is, in terms of both space and time, and what we can know about what we are.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2021 22:14:03 GMT -5
Have you never experienced pain brother? May I ask what is your understanding of emotional-contraction? Yes, I've experienced both pain and suffering, to almost (pain) the greatest extent possible (I've never passed out from pain). Infected ingrown toenail, 9th grade, I begged my parents to take me to the hospital at 11:00 PM (I was trying to make it one more day to play my last football game). Sinus infection, same, begged to take me to the hospital at 11:00 PM. 3rd worst, kidney stone. And suffering to the fullest extent possible, and not kill oneself. I've written about this here previously. May 1975, 5 feet from death for 3 hours, -March 1976, similar. Similar, twice more. Another occasion, (almost) the greatest psychological suffering possible, but not specifically suicidal then. Don't know the term emotional-contraction, but that sounds like tying oneself into such a knot that one can ignore the psychological suffering, not-know that it exists, not feel it. No, I don't know that, I was pretty-much an open wound (metaphorically) concerning psychological suffering as far back as I can remember. That was my primary impetus for the spiritual journey. Many days my primary goal was how not to kill myself, to get through to another day. I bet my pile of s**T was bigger than your pile of s**t, don't we all. But no, I've encountered people who had had it worse than me, probably you. But if you can approach it in the right way, yes, it can make one stronger. Another way to say that, makes one more compassionate. Stronger = less small s self = more compassionate. I went years when I literally did-not-cry. Now I'm easily moved, and it's good tears, compassionate tears. But lots of times sad tears, too (for others). Fabulous youre still with us...
"But if you can approach it in the right way, yes, it can make one stronger."
I just posted elsewhere about returning into ones body after a Storm.
I will add (for ppl who maybe following your mature posts) that to remain at depth (settle)
'after' emotional release without getting attached to the refreshing thoughts that appear,
is where spiritual Strength be owned.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2021 22:21:46 GMT -5
Having an intellectual attitude above pain can keep the person out of touch of their body, where pain is happening. My guess if we have no pains then their is nothing to work with If an enlightened body is important. Precisely. Tolle truly understood that unresolved pain (and suffering) collects in the body, what he calls the pain-body. Wilhelm Reich called it body armor (which doesn't mean it's just on the outside perimeter of the body). Did you read Peter Reich's writing on his Dad? My Dad was a Steel Bender, part of a Team to build hydro-electric Dams, he also our country Towns Boxing Trainer. Pushing me thro the ropes at 5 years stunted my creativity enormously and it wasn't till after he died that I began my turn-a-bout.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 11, 2021 1:57:25 GMT -5
If I understand correctly what you mean by awareness, then awareness changes. That is the crux of evolvement. I think we differ in respect to what more or less means. You seem to talk in quantitative terms, while in my model awareness evolves qualitatively. A good comparison is with the way image files are downloaded; this is observable on a slower connection (which is the case with our awareness evolvement). --- see bellow. Even if you overcome the training wheels of time and space, as well as your limiting beliefs both the primary ones (you are born with, in your subconscious) and the secondary ones (that you accumulate consciously and unconsciously, a.k.a. get hypnotized), your awareness, although able to access the whole "picture", it can make sense of it only vaguely. This vagueness diminishing is the awareness evolvement, and takes an infinite number of iterations, as the pure clarity is infinite. In my model, awareness changes as the " interlaced" image. Bingo. But zd doesn't consider it is the case that there is evolvement, period. I say the evolution of consciousness is the ability to ~take in~ more of What Is, in terms of both space and time, and what we can know about what we are. No, I'm never talking about quantity regarding awareness; always quality. The standard experiment that sages request from seekers is to remember a particularly vivid experience from the past, perhaps during childhood or teen-age years, and then ask themselves if the quality of present-moment awareness is any different from that past-moment awareness. Most people will realize that awareness is precisely the same as it was in every past-moment of life. Only the content changes. Awareness has nothing to do with what is understood; understanding is solely a function of the intellect. Time and space are cognitive grids, illusions that can be seen through. There is only now. As Leonard Jacobsen put it so succinctly in his book, "Embracing the Present:" "There is no journey. There is no destination. You are already here." Or, "When you awaken, you will find that there was no separation to overcome. It was all an illusion." Suggesting that consciousness has the ability to "take in more of 'what is'" is like saying, "'What is' can be more than 'what is.'" This idea is predicated upon the sense that there is a separate someone who can do something to take in more of "what is," and there isn't. The idea of a separate someone able to volitionally do anything is the most fundamental illusion.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 11, 2021 3:06:41 GMT -5
Bingo. But zd doesn't consider it is the case that there is evolvement, period. I say the evolution of consciousness is the ability to ~take in~ more of What Is, in terms of both space and time, and what we can know about what we are. No, I'm never talking about quantity regarding awareness; always quality. The standard experiment that sages request from seekers is to remember a particularly vivid experience from the past, perhaps during childhood or teen-age years, and then ask themselves if the quality of present-moment awareness is any different from that past-moment awareness. Most people will realize that "their" awareness is precisely the same as it was in every past-moment of life. Only the content changes. Awareness has nothing to do with what is understood; understanding is solely a function of the intellect. Time and space are cognitive grids, illusions that can be seen through. There is only now. As Leonard Jacobsen put it so succinctly in his book, "Embracing the Present:" "There is no journey. There is no destination. You are already here." Or, "When you awaken, you will find that there was no separation to overcome. It was all an illusion." Suggesting that consciousness has the ability to "take in more of 'what is'" is like saying, "'What is' can be more than 'what is.'" This idea is predicated upon the sense that there is a separate someone who can do something to take in more of "what is," and there isn't. The idea of a separate someone able to volitionally do anything is the most fundamental illusion. No, no, no, ... Sorry. It feels like there is an insurmountable divider.
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Post by laughter on Sept 11, 2021 4:03:12 GMT -5
Precisely. Tolle truly understood that unresolved pain (and suffering) collects in the body, what he calls the pain-body. Wilhelm Reich called it body armor (which doesn't mean it's just on the outside perimeter of the body). Did you read Peter Reich's writing on his Dad? My Dad was a Steel Bender, part of a Team to build hydro-electric Dams, he also our country Towns Boxing Trainer. Pushing me thro the ropes at 5 years stunted my creativity enormously and it wasn't till after he died that I began my turn-a-bout.
heh heh .. I knew this wasn't your first incarnation here!
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Post by zendancer on Sept 11, 2021 6:41:24 GMT -5
No, I'm never talking about quantity regarding awareness; always quality. The standard experiment that sages request from seekers is to remember a particularly vivid experience from the past, perhaps during childhood or teen-age years, and then ask themselves if the quality of present-moment awareness is any different from that past-moment awareness. Most people will realize that "their" awareness is precisely the same as it was in every past-moment of life. Only the content changes. Awareness has nothing to do with what is understood; understanding is solely a function of the intellect. Time and space are cognitive grids, illusions that can be seen through. There is only now. As Leonard Jacobsen put it so succinctly in his book, "Embracing the Present:" "There is no journey. There is no destination. You are already here." Or, "When you awaken, you will find that there was no separation to overcome. It was all an illusion." Suggesting that consciousness has the ability to "take in more of 'what is'" is like saying, "'What is' can be more than 'what is.'" This idea is predicated upon the sense that there is a separate someone who can do something to take in more of "what is," and there isn't. The idea of a separate someone able to volitionally do anything is the most fundamental illusion. No, no, no, ... Sorry. It feels like there is an insurmountable divider. Yes; it's called "the mind." To see and understand what's being pointed to, the mind must be quiescent long enough for the realization of what Bankei called "the Unborn."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 14:24:21 GMT -5
Precisely. Tolle truly understood that unresolved pain (and suffering) collects in the body, what he calls the pain-body. Wilhelm Reich called it body armor (which doesn't mean it's just on the outside perimeter of the body). Yes, Reich was spot on. But from reading TPON, I didn't get the impression that that's what Tolle meant. It does seem to me that Tolle talks about the pain body more in the metaphorical sense. And he probably took that concept from someone else. Because in TPON, the pain body stuff seems strangely out of place. Not to mention that from the LOA perspective, the Tolle pain body concept is a bit silly and rather counterproductive. I think I've mentioned that in my Tolle thread already. If he would have left that out, TPON would have been on par with the Niz and Ramana talks. But it seems Tolle wanted to sell books above all... so just 3 stars for you, Ulrich! Huh. The pain body stuff in The Power of Now made sense to me. I think it could be useful to some people. Maybe only for people who, well, have a pain body. It looks like an example of the old neti-neti teaching: what you can see is not the Self. Emphasizing it the way he did – I can see how that could help some people cut the cycle, where shame and self-loathing after an "episode" can perpetuate the negative states. Also that woo-woo story was interesting – where he goes to the restaurant after a session with someone and it seems to enter one of the other customers. About people that seem to be having problems... I remember that parable of the prodigal son, or... Nisargadatta: The spirit is a sport and enjoys to overcome obstacles. The harder the task the deeper and wider his self-realisation.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 20:00:54 GMT -5
Did you read Peter Reich's writing on his Dad? My Dad was a Steel Bender, part of a Team to build hydro-electric Dams, he also our country Towns Boxing Trainer. Pushing me thro the ropes at 5 years stunted my creativity enormously and it wasn't till after he died that I began my turn-a-bout.
heh heh .. I knew this wasn't your first incarnation here! All numbers add up to Nothing?
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Post by Reefs on Sept 12, 2021 1:52:49 GMT -5
Yes, Reich was spot on. But from reading TPON, I didn't get the impression that that's what Tolle meant. It does seem to me that Tolle talks about the pain body more in the metaphorical sense. And he probably took that concept from someone else. Because in TPON, the pain body stuff seems strangely out of place. Not to mention that from the LOA perspective, the Tolle pain body concept is a bit silly and rather counterproductive. I think I've mentioned that in my Tolle thread already. If he would have left that out, TPON would have been on par with the Niz and Ramana talks. But it seems Tolle wanted to sell books above all... so just 3 stars for you, Ulrich! Huh. The pain body stuff in The Power of Now made sense to me. I think it could be useful to some people. Maybe only for people who, well, have a pain body. It looks like an example of the old neti-neti teaching: what you can see is not the Self. Emphasizing it the way he did – I can see how that could help some people cut the cycle, where shame and self-loathing after an "episode" can perpetuate the negative states. Also that woo-woo story was interesting – where he goes to the restaurant after a session with someone and it seems to enter one of the other customers. About people that seem to be having problems... I remember that parable of the prodigal son, or... Nisargadatta: The spirit is a sport and enjoys to overcome obstacles. The harder the task the deeper and wider his self-realisation.I don't have much time for debate, but I did a thread on TPON once, and here's what I wrote back then about the book and the pain body theory: Well, sure. The ratings are mostly just personal opinion. I've just finished reading TPON. And I have to say, I like it a lot. I think Shawn didn't like the sole focus on money-making of the Tolle website. To me, that's not necessarily an issue, because to me, ET teaches thriving. And why should he say no to thriving financially? So I disagree with the 3 star rating. However, I wouldn't give him a 5 star rating either because there's a couple of things in his ontology that didn't ring true at all to me and seem a bit TMT: - the pain body - the alarmism Apart from that, the book is excellent. His style is very simple, his language very clear and no matter what topic, he always brings it back to his main message, presence - the power of NOW. Actually, it felt a lot like reading A-H, just with a different set of vocabulary but basically very similar concepts. And both A-H and ET are very heavy on the kensho aspect of SR. The only difference is that ET also mentions the satori aspect of SR, A-H don't. And I'd give A-H a 4 star rating, so I think ET should get at least a 4 star rating as well.
My issue is not with the notion that even sages have to deal with pain. My issue is with ET turning pain into an entity. To me the pain body is just the alignment topic again. Life happens. Things happen. Both the seeker and the sage have to deal with such events. It's what A-H call contrast. So, I'd imagine that the concept of a pain body would make a lot of sense to people who are in pain, i.e people that hang out on the lower half of the emotional scale a lot (or predominantly). But the higher you are calibrating on that scale, the more bogus that concept of a pain body will feel to you. Also, imagine Niz or Ramana or a Zen Master talking about a pain body! That would be just weird!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 12, 2021 9:58:05 GMT -5
Precisely. Tolle truly understood that unresolved pain (and suffering) collects in the body, what he calls the pain-body. Wilhelm Reich called it body armor (which doesn't mean it's just on the outside perimeter of the body). Did you read Peter Reich's writing on his Dad? My Dad was a Steel Bender, part of a Team to build hydro-electric Dams, he also our country Towns Boxing Trainer. Pushing me thro the ropes at 5 years stunted my creativity enormously and it wasn't till after he died that I began my turn-a-bout.
Haven't read, will check it out, sounds interesting. ...Good you got turned around... Did you ever see The Great Santini?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 12, 2021 10:32:26 GMT -5
No, I'm never talking about quantity regarding awareness; always quality. The standard experiment that sages request from seekers is to remember a particularly vivid experience from the past, perhaps during childhood or teen-age years, and then ask themselves if the quality of present-moment awareness is any different from that past-moment awareness. Most people will realize that "their" awareness is precisely the same as it was in every past-moment of life. Only the content changes. Awareness has nothing to do with what is understood; understanding is solely a function of the intellect. Time and space are cognitive grids, illusions that can be seen through. There is only now. As Leonard Jacobsen put it so succinctly in his book, "Embracing the Present:" "There is no journey. There is no destination. You are already here." Or, "When you awaken, you will find that there was no separation to overcome. It was all an illusion." Suggesting that consciousness has the ability to "take in more of 'what is'" is like saying, "'What is' can be more than 'what is.'" This idea is predicated upon the sense that there is a separate someone who can do something to take in more of "what is," and there isn't. The idea of a separate someone able to volitionally do anything is the most fundamental illusion. No, no, no, ... Sorry. It feels like there is an insurmountable divider. I've gone round and round with zd on this for 12 years. I have a pretty firm rule here, I don't talk specifically about practices, I don't talk about experiences. I've skated the edges of both of these... There is a kind of general rule here, also a kind of taboo, woo woo. And most of the foremost posters here do not consider experiences significant, especially woo woo. But one persons woo woo is another persons sacred. It seems zd (and others here) have formed an artificial boundary, a conceptual boundary disallowing any significant exploration beyond their realizations. And he has said he has never had one of his realizations later contradicted. So, basically, I post, and it doesn't go much further. I confirm others when I can agree with them, but I have added many times, there is more. There is more. I guess it's maybe possible to touch the more, but not-know what one has touched, maybe it immediately gets categorized as woo woo or insignificant (but IMO, this is just not possible, there's just too dramatic a difference. But I do know that a written account read by one who has not been there, is unrecognizable, it's just words). Most of the regular posters also ignore any mention of higher dimensions, or relegate them to insignificance. Those that do are indicating 'Seth-stuff' is not significant. But yes, there is a line drawn, OTOH, if you don't see that coming to the unborn is the end of the journey, you haven't gotten it. OToH I say coming to the unborn is just the beginning of the journey. The unborn is a kind of seed, or egg. But nobody wants to sit on an egg and incubate it, especially if they consider it already hatched. There is a spiritual journey, but it's a spiral, not a closed loop. The whole universe is quantum based. Worlds are discontinuous with each other, that's why it seems there is nowhere else to go. But the quantum gap can be crossed, and a new world entered. Glimpsed at first, but entered. It's more-real than this world even, and can't be imagined. And you always want to go back. I know, if zd reads this, he will consider it irrelevant (and at the same time consider his view the more significant). Thus, the secret protects itself. I consider understanding more significant than a realization.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 12, 2021 10:46:49 GMT -5
Huh. The pain body stuff in The Power of Now made sense to me. I think it could be useful to some people. Maybe only for people who, well, have a pain body. It looks like an example of the old neti-neti teaching: what you can see is not the Self. Emphasizing it the way he did – I can see how that could help some people cut the cycle, where shame and self-loathing after an "episode" can perpetuate the negative states. Also that woo-woo story was interesting – where he goes to the restaurant after a session with someone and it seems to enter one of the other customers. About people that seem to be having problems... I remember that parable of the prodigal son, or... Nisargadatta: The spirit is a sport and enjoys to overcome obstacles. The harder the task the deeper and wider his self-realisation.I don't have much time for debate, but I did a thread on TPON once, and here's what I wrote back then about the book and the pain body theory: Well, sure. The ratings are mostly just personal opinion. I've just finished reading TPON. And I have to say, I like it a lot. I think Shawn didn't like the sole focus on money-making of the Tolle website. To me, that's not necessarily an issue, because to me, ET teaches thriving. And why should he say no to thriving financially? So I disagree with the 3 star rating. However, I wouldn't give him a 5 star rating either because there's a couple of things in his ontology that didn't ring true at all to me and seem a bit TMT: - the pain body - the alarmism Apart from that, the book is excellent. His style is very simple, his language very clear and no matter what topic, he always brings it back to his main message, presence - the power of NOW. Actually, it felt a lot like reading A-H, just with a different set of vocabulary but basically very similar concepts. And both A-H and ET are very heavy on the kensho aspect of SR. The only difference is that ET also mentions the satori aspect of SR, A-H don't. And I'd give A-H a 4 star rating, so I think ET should get at least a 4 star rating as well.
My issue is not with the notion that even sages have to deal with pain. My issue is with ET turning pain into an entity. To me the pain body is just the alignment topic again. Life happens. Things happen. Both the seeker and the sage have to deal with such events. It's what A-H call contrast. So, I'd imagine that the concept of a pain body would make a lot of sense to people who are in pain, i.e people that hang out on the lower half of the emotional scale a lot (or predominantly). But the higher you are calibrating on that scale, the more bogus that concept of a pain body will feel to you. Also, imagine Niz or Ramana or a Zen Master talking about a pain body! That would be just weird! Anyone who has ever suffered has (or had) a pain-body. If one doesn't suffer any more, most likely the pain-body is just buried deeper and it will take a ton of a s**t-storm in life to make you suffer again. Life will usually accommodate you. Never say never. I would say the pain-body pretty-much = vasanas and samskaras. What most of you here don't seem to get is that as long as there are vasanas and samskaras left in(as) the pain-body, these will necessitate another incarnation. Even if choice is involved, one will choose to come back because only in a physical body can vasanas and samskaras be dealt with. But of course you ("most of you here") will all say, nope, I'm good. But a few here I see continue to tackle their s**t. If you have a problem with anything in life, you're not done (life is not done with you, as was said above).
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Post by zendancer on Sept 12, 2021 12:36:06 GMT -5
No, no, no, ... Sorry. It feels like there is an insurmountable divider. I've gone round and round with zd on this for 12 years. I have a pretty firm rule here, I don't talk specifically about practices, I don't talk about experiences. I've skated the edges of both of these... There is a kind of general rule here, also a kind of taboo, woo woo. And most of the foremost posters here do not consider experiences significant, especially woo woo. But one persons woo woo is another persons sacred. It seems zd (and others here) have formed an artificial boundary, a conceptual boundary disallowing any significant exploration beyond their realizations. And he has said he has never had one of his realizations later contradicted. So, basically, I post, and it doesn't go much further. I confirm others when I can agree with them, but I have added many times, there is more. There is more. I guess it's maybe possible to touch the more, but not-know what one has touched, maybe it immediately gets categorized as woo woo or insignificant (but IMO, this is just not possible, there's just too dramatic a difference. But I do know that a written account read by one who has not been there, is unrecognizable, it's just words). Most of the regular posters also ignore any mention of higher dimensions, or relegate them to insignificance. Those that do are indicating 'Seth-stuff' is not significant. But yes, there is a line drawn, OTOH, if you don't see that coming to the unborn is the end of the journey, you haven't gotten it. OToH I say coming to the unborn is just the beginning of the journey. The unborn is a kind of seed, or egg. But nobody wants to sit on an egg and incubate it, especially if they consider it already hatched. There is a spiritual journey, but it's a spiral, not a closed loop. The whole universe is quantum based. Worlds are discontinuous with each other, that's why it seems there is nowhere else to go. But the quantum gap can be crossed, and a new world entered. Glimpsed at first, but entered. It's more-real than this world even, and can't be imagined. And you always want to go back. I know, if zd reads this, he will consider it irrelevant (and at the same time consider his view the more significant). Thus, the secret protects itself. I consider understanding more significant than a realization. SDP: Those are some curious comments to make considering what's been posted here over the years. Most of us have talked about practices (ATA-T, zazen, shikan taza, staying in the I Am, contemplation, etc), and most of us have talked about the correlation between those kinds of practices (which often lead to mental silence), and realizations. We've also talked about experiences, and particularly woo-woo experiences. Reefs and I have written about kensho events and how significant kensho events (or experiences if one wants to call them that), can result in major realizations. You say that you consider understanding more significant than a realization, but realizations are what inform understanding by revealing what is NOT true. As someone driven almost solely by intellectual curiosity, all I wanted to understand was, in essence, "What's going on?" I knew, intuitively, that the consensus paradigm didn't make any sense, and I had no idea what I would need to discover to resolve all of the existential questions and paradoxes that plagued me. The first big woo-woo experience/event that occurred clearly answered 7 of my main questions, and that's what I used to argue with Enigma about. He dismissed ALL experiences, even non-dual kensho kinds of woo-woo events/experiences, because, from his POV, they have what he considered a beginning, middle, and end, and he rejected the idea that there could be timeless seeings into our true nature that were worth having and would yield important insights. People in the Zen tradition contemplate dozens, if not hundreds, of existential questions in the form of koans, and they resolve those koans simply by sitting in silence. In my case, solving one or two dozen of the simpler koans quickly showed me that I could find the answer to any existential question by simply bearing in mind what I wanted to know. Understanding increased as various realizations revealed that various deeply ingrained ideas about the nature of reality that I believed were true simply weren't. That's why many sages describe the path of Self-discovery as one of subtraction rather than addition. Ideas cease to have importance as we discover that they are all cartoons that keep us distracted or separated from the absolute truth of "what is." As far as I can see, there's no taboo against saying anything on the forum that one wants to say, but whatever is said is certainly open to challenge. I primarily challenge you because you seem to have so many ideas ABOUT the nature of "what is," and there's a huge difference between ideas ABOUT "what is" and what "what is" is in itself. You frequently list idea after idea that you seem to be attached to, and none of them have anything to do with what's right in front of our eyes right this moment. They're all abstractions, but "what is" is not abstract.
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Post by laughter on Sept 12, 2021 12:41:34 GMT -5
No, no, no, ... Sorry. It feels like there is an insurmountable divider. I've gone round and round with zd on this for 12 years. I have a pretty firm rule here, I don't talk specifically about practices, I don't talk about experiences. I've skated the edges of both of these... There is a kind of general rule here, also a kind of taboo, woo woo. And most of the foremost posters here do not consider experiences significant, especially woo woo. But one persons woo woo is another persons sacred. It seems zd (and others here) have formed an artificial boundary, a conceptual boundary disallowing any significant exploration beyond their realizations. And he has said he has never had one of his realizations later contradicted. So, basically, I post, and it doesn't go much further. I confirm others when I can agree with them, but I have added many times, there is more. There is more. I guess it's maybe possible to touch the more, but not-know what one has touched, maybe it immediately gets categorized as woo woo or insignificant (but IMO, this is just not possible, there's just too dramatic a difference. But I do know that a written account read by one who has not been there, is unrecognizable, it's just words). Most of the regular posters also ignore any mention of higher dimensions, or relegate them to insignificance. Those that do are indicating 'Seth-stuff' is not significant. But yes, there is a line drawn, OTOH, if you don't see that coming to the unborn is the end of the journey, you haven't gotten it. OToH I say coming to the unborn is just the beginning of the journey. The unborn is a kind of seed, or egg. But nobody wants to sit on an egg and incubate it, especially if they consider it already hatched. There is a spiritual journey, but it's a spiral, not a closed loop. The whole universe is quantum based. Worlds are discontinuous with each other, that's why it seems there is nowhere else to go. But the quantum gap can be crossed, and a new world entered. Glimpsed at first, but entered. It's more-real than this world even, and can't be imagined. And you always want to go back. I know, if zd reads this, he will consider it irrelevant (and at the same time consider his view the more significant). Thus, the secret protects itself. I consider understanding more significant than a realization. I've always found woo-woo and all other manner of experiences - including those of deep or sudden suffering - to be quite significant. On the other hand, I also appreciate the distinction between experiences and realizations, and there is at least one realization - and I actually think it can happen in more than one, or even more than two or three segments - that is extraordinary, as it is closely related to the end of existential curiosity. Like many here, I find other folks experiences to be interesting - the many you've shared over the years are no exception to that, and it can sometimes be fun to write about my own if the mood of the dialog is right for it.
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