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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2021 7:37:40 GMT -5
From the title of the thread by pain I think she meant (suffering). Many years back I went into zazen retreat as pain were arising. Hardly able to support my-self let alone my family, I instantly became concerned that I had made ‘the wrong move’ but hung-in there, best I could. Having dropped into depression after criminal assault, I chose to ‘work’ on myself rather than trust the med prof drugs( which were making me sicker) and returned to meditation. My jaunt proved revealing as confronting illness brought up heaps of thought and my ego began to panic. Sitting on the spot for long periods of time certainly revealed a clear-picture of the internal pain inside but I was able to see How my ego was ‘creating’ greater pain over the top of reservoir of pain I had been living with, after criminal assault. Seeing how ‘mind overlays’ and fears of ‘messing-up’ within the Sangha intensified until I remembered the importance of surrender and instantly the the Greater part of my pain (restriction) vanished all of a sudden making sitting bearable and I was able to deal with my illness like never before. This is EXACTLY what Charlotte Joko Beck is referring to and explaining and what she taught to her students, it's like you read her book or was a student of hers. This is precisely why she recommends sitting every day. If you sit (and she recommends perfectly still as long as possible, as long as there is no physical pain, then you can shift minimally), all one's s**t comes to the surface where it can be dealt with, which basically means recognize it has come to the surface, that is, observe it. In ordinary life the self has numerous ways to keep-itself-as-the-problem hidden. But just sitting self has nothing to hide behind. This book (see post above) has shot up to my top ten all time favorite books list. She knows human psychology well, by going through (almost) all of her own s**t.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2021 8:02:04 GMT -5
From the title of the thread by pain I think she meant (suffering). Have you never experienced pain brother? May I ask what is your understanding of emotional-contraction? Yes, I've experienced both pain and suffering, to almost (pain) the greatest extent possible (I've never passed out from pain). Infected ingrown toenail, 9th grade, I begged my parents to take me to the hospital at 11:00 PM (I was trying to make it one more day to play my last football game). Sinus infection, same, begged to take me to the hospital at 11:00 PM. 3rd worst, kidney stone. And suffering to the fullest extent possible, and not kill oneself. I've written about this here previously. May 1975, 5 feet from death for 3 hours, -March 1976, similar. Similar, twice more. Another occasion, (almost) the greatest psychological suffering possible, but not specifically suicidal then. Don't know the term emotional-contraction, but that sounds like tying oneself into such a knot that one can ignore the psychological suffering, not-know that it exists, not feel it. No, I don't know that, I was pretty-much an open wound (metaphorically) concerning psychological suffering as far back as I can remember. That was my primary impetus for the spiritual journey. Many days my primary goal was how not to kill myself, to get through to another day. I bet my pile of s**T was bigger than your pile of s**t, don't we all. But no, I've encountered people who had had it worse than me, probably you. But if you can approach it in the right way, yes, it can make one stronger. Another way to say that, makes one more compassionate. Stronger = less small s self = more compassionate. I went years when I literally did-not-cry. Now I'm easily moved, and it's good tears, compassionate tears. But lots of times sad tears, too (for others).
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2021 8:07:06 GMT -5
I hear in the quote that inner allowance of unavoidable pain is a practice best optimized in the heat of the moment. Having an intellectual attitude above pain can keep the person out of touch of their body, where pain is happening. My guess if we have no pains then their is nothing to work with If an enlightened body is important. Precisely. Tolle truly understood that unresolved pain (and suffering) collects in the body, what he calls the pain-body. Wilhelm Reich called it body armor (which doesn't mean it's just on the outside perimeter of the body).
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Post by zendancer on Sept 10, 2021 8:37:51 GMT -5
That's a weird quote. I have no idea what she's trying to communicate, but learning to be with either pain or suffering is a strange idea unless you're a masochist. If it's chronic pain, and nothing can be done about it, then, sure, one must deal with it in the best way that one can. Suffering is usually distinguished as optional in ND circles because it's commonly a result of psychologically attaching to some self-centered idea. IMO, if anything is worth considering as the heart of practice it would be silence. Yes, this is what she's pointing to (not specifically physical pain). I think suffering serves a similar function of physical pain. Physical pain says there's a problem, find out what the problem is and fix it. Psychological suffering in a very similar way is pointing to a problem with self of self. Self IS the problem. That's why she says suffering is the heart of practice. If there is psychological suffering then one isn't done yet. If psychological suffering lasts more than about ten seconds (it can pop up if vasanas and samskaras have not been eliminated) then self (small s self) is a factor. Psychological suffering cannot exist in the present moment. All correct spiritual practices put one in the present moment. If you recognize suffering, if you practice, it puts you in the present moment where suffering can't-be. So suffering is a kind of short cut to getting to the present moment. Suffering is any kind of (psychological) dissatisfaction with what presently is. She goes into this in a full chapter of Ordinary Wonder, Zen Life & Practice (which were originally talks by her to her students, edited and formed into a new book by her daughter, Brenda Beck Hess. She doesn't use all the words I used above. Thanks. That makes more sense.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2021 10:56:07 GMT -5
There is always only one thing to do: be with things as they are. Those can seem like simple words, but it's practice, a lot of practice, that enables us to do this. Charlotte Joko Beck
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Post by Reefs on Sept 10, 2021 11:10:08 GMT -5
Having an intellectual attitude above pain can keep the person out of touch of their body, where pain is happening. My guess if we have no pains then their is nothing to work with If an enlightened body is important. Precisely. Tolle truly understood that unresolved pain (and suffering) collects in the body, what he calls the pain-body. Wilhelm Reich called it body armor (which doesn't mean it's just on the outside perimeter of the body). Yes, Reich was spot on. But from reading TPON, I didn't get the impression that that's what Tolle meant. It does seem to me that Tolle talks about the pain body more in the metaphorical sense. And he probably took that concept from someone else. Because in TPON, the pain body stuff seems strangely out of place. Not to mention that from the LOA perspective, the Tolle pain body concept is a bit silly and rather counterproductive. I think I've mentioned that in my Tolle thread already. If he would have left that out, TPON would have been on par with the Niz and Ramana talks. But it seems Tolle wanted to sell books above all... so just 3 stars for you, Ulrich!
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2021 11:34:57 GMT -5
Precisely. Tolle truly understood that unresolved pain (and suffering) collects in the body, what he calls the pain-body. Wilhelm Reich called it body armor (which doesn't mean it's just on the outside perimeter of the body). Yes, Reich was spot on. But from reading TPON, I didn't get the impression that that's what Tolle meant. It does seem to me that Tolle talks about the pain body more in the metaphorical sense. And he probably took that concept from someone else. Because in TPON, the pain body stuff seems strangely out of place. Not to mention that from the LOA perspective, the Tolle pain body concept is a bit silly and rather counterproductive. I think I've mentioned that in the my Tolle thread already. If he would have left that out, TPON would have been on par with the Niz and Ramana talks. But it seems Tolle wanted to sell books above all... I think Tolle meant pain-body quite literally. I see it directly tied to the false sense of self aka small s self, the conditioning that-is-self. We don't usually see it in self, we see it in other people as something they need to fix. We I first read Tolle's story in TPON I recognized it immediately, his own pain of who he was, was unbearable. Everybody has that pain, to some extent, but it's buried. It's the prime motivation for most people, but of course for most people they never realize it. Most people are driven by the-self-as-conditioning, and most of the conditioning came from a rejection of the true self, which began as a means of protecting the true self, but a flip-flop occurs, our sense of identity shifts from true self to false self, the conditioning. (True) spiritual practice is about recovering our true self. This usually entails working through the pain-(body). For Tolle things just suddenly flip-flopped back, overnight. Any and all negative emotions are really just the nasty pain-body reacting against something it doesn't like. Negative emotions are the false self trying to protect itself and stay alive and in control. But there isn't a doer doing, it's all reactive. In myths it's called the Dweller of the Threshold, basically a nasty "demon", but it's self-created, it's our accumulation of pain and suffering. It's the whole basis of the film The Forbidden Planet. If you see a big bad guy anywhere, you still have a pain-body. Part of What Is is just s**t happening, no bad guys, just an accumulation of nasty conditioning sometimes clumping together in "common cause".
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2021 11:45:46 GMT -5
In practicing and living with more awareness (which is what practice is, note sdp), all we are sacrificing is our illusions. CJB
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Post by inavalan on Sept 10, 2021 15:11:40 GMT -5
In practicing and living with more awareness (which is what practice is, note sdp), all we are sacrificing is our illusions. CJB Honest question: how does one now that they live with more awareness, and that what they believe to be awareness isn't an illusion?You probably experienced or heard of lucid dream "false-awakenings", when you experience waking up from a dream, just to wake up again from that false-awakening later.
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Post by zendancer on Sept 10, 2021 16:41:50 GMT -5
In practicing and living with more awareness (which is what practice is, note sdp), all we are sacrificing is our illusions. CJB Honest question: how does one now that they live with more awareness, and that what they believe to be awareness isn't an illusion? Awareness never changes, so there can never be more awareness or less awareness. Only that which awareness is aware of changes. There is either awareness of the actual or there is awareness of what is imagined. Awareness can be aware of what is seen, heard, felt, etc, or awareness can be aware of ideas, images, or symbols. Awareness can also be aware of awareness in the absence of all thoughts and perceptions.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2021 17:24:19 GMT -5
In practicing and living with more awareness (which is what practice is, note sdp), all we are sacrificing is our illusions. CJB Honest question: how does one now that they live with more awareness, and that what they believe to be awareness isn't an illusion?You probably experienced or heard of lucid dream "false-awakenings", when you experience waking up from a dream, just to wake up again from that false-awakening later. Yes, I experienced this once. I was up in my bed laying down on my stomach and looking under my bed when I (actually) woke up. I had dreamed there were lit candles under my bed, when I woke up (the first time, but really was still asleep) they were lit. When I actually woke up, I was still looking under the bed, the lit candles just vanished. It was really weird, but cool. You'll have to answer the first part for yourself. I know when I had been operating on autopilot, awareness and attention lost in people, places or things, thoughts, feelings or sensations (to keep it simple). But when I am lost in these, I don't know it and am not aware in the same way.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 10, 2021 17:30:15 GMT -5
Honest question: how does one now that they live with more awareness, and that what they believe to be awareness isn't an illusion? Awareness never changes, so there can never be more awareness or less awareness. Only that which awareness is aware of changes. There is either awareness of the actual or there is awareness of what is imagined. Awareness can be aware of what is seen, heard, felt, etc, or awareness can be aware of ideas, images, or symbols. Awareness can also be aware of awareness in the absence of all thoughts and perceptions. Don't you find the awareness that is aware of awareness, significantly different? That's basically all I live for. Not-being there is what I would call less aware. You have to discern the difference between mere functioning in thoughts, feelings, bodily actions (basically being on autopilot) and sensations, and being conscious of those. Don't you have times when you recognize that you had been operating merely on autopilot? (That is, very little awareness).
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Post by inavalan on Sept 10, 2021 20:50:55 GMT -5
Honest question: how does one now that they live with more awareness, and that what they believe to be awareness isn't an illusion? Awareness never changes, so there can never be more awareness or less awareness. Only that which awareness is aware of changes. There is either awareness of the actual or there is awareness of what is imagined. Awareness can be aware of what is seen, heard, felt, etc, or awareness can be aware of ideas, images, or symbols. Awareness can also be aware of awareness in the absence of all thoughts and perceptions. If I understand correctly what you mean by awareness, then awareness changes. That is the crux of evolvement. I think we differ in respect to what more or less means. You seem to talk in quantitative terms, while in my model awareness evolves qualitatively. A good comparison is with the way image files are downloaded; this is observable on a slower connection (which is the case with our awareness evolvement). --- see bellow. Even if you overcome the training wheels of time and space, as well as your limiting beliefs both the primary ones (you are born with, in your subconscious) and the secondary ones (that you accumulate consciously and unconsciously, a.k.a. get hypnotized), your awareness, although able to access the whole "picture", it can make sense of it only vaguely. This vagueness diminishing is the awareness evolvement, and takes an infinite number of iterations, as the pure clarity is infinite. In my model, awareness changes as the " interlaced" image.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2021 21:21:00 GMT -5
Precisely. Tolle truly understood that unresolved pain (and suffering) collects in the body, what he calls the pain-body. Wilhelm Reich called it body armor (which doesn't mean it's just on the outside perimeter of the body). Yes, Reich was spot on. But from reading TPON, I didn't get the impression that that's what Tolle meant. It does seem to me that Tolle talks about the pain body more in the metaphorical sense. And he probably took that concept from someone else. Because in TPON, the pain body stuff seems strangely out of place. Not to mention that from the LOA perspective, the Tolle pain body concept is a bit silly and rather counterproductive. I think I've mentioned that in my Tolle thread already. If he would have left that out, TPON would have been on par with the Niz and Ramana talks. But it seems Tolle wanted to sell books above all... so just 3 stars for you, Ulrich! Memory cells within our physical make-up make up the so-called pain body that psychotherapists works with. When an aware person massages scar tissue of a person whom has forgotten their past, memories surface, some with heaps of emotion and bringing new awareness to their client.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2021 21:35:28 GMT -5
Learning to be with pain (suffering) is the heart of practice. Charlotte Joko Beck "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same;" .. same applies to pain/pleasure. There's a nobility in the character that forms by enduring pain, but that would elude anyone who deliberately cultivates pain for that purpose. Just as surely as that character can never form in anyone who makes a practice of the natural human impetus to avoid pain. Acceptance can be a means to an end, in relative terms, or it can point to the end of the entity who thinks they are accepting. In either event, it is in the end, where one will find the greatest significance. Of course the enlightened-body is important. Spirituality be like a two lane hi-way; intellect goes-off first ( carrots come to mind) then attention is drawn-back inside ones body, where one was first born. When the body is full of pain, the mind remains fixed on one of the two brains until the release of pain undermines the mind permitting “Drops” to begin occurring, the mind now on the move.
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