|
Post by siftingtothetruth on Sept 20, 2021 22:40:58 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Nineteen20. HE WHO SEES GOD WITHOUT SEEING THE SELF SEES ONLY A MENTAL IMAGE. THEY SAY THAT HE WHO SEES THE SELF SEES GOD. HE WHO, HAVING COMPLETELY LOST THE EGO, SEES THE SELF, HAS FOUND GOD, BECAUSE THE SELF DOES NOT EXIST APART FROM GOD. Commentary: God is merely an abstraction, a thought, a belief, unless experienced directly. And God can and is experienced directly, as the Self. So one who knows the Self knows God. If the ego has been investigated and its illusion penetrated, then the Self is said to be known. In that same moment, God is also found, since the idea of God is nothing other than the Self with a few illusory attributes superimposed. From the view of the ego, God is the whole. That is, the mind is small and limited, and God is large and unlimited. But when the Self is found, this egoic way of looking at the mind and God falls apart. There is then only the Self, which is nothing other than God’s real formless form. God’s worldly attributes — God’s miraculous powers, etc. — are as true or false as the attributes of any individual mind. There is then to be found no distinction between your true form and the true form of God. At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so far here.
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2021 5:57:19 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Nineteen20. HE WHO SEES GOD WITHOUT SEEING THE SELF SEES ONLY A MENTAL IMAGE. THEY SAY THAT HE WHO SEES THE SELF SEES GOD. HE WHO, HAVING COMPLETELY LOST THE EGO, SEES THE SELF, HAS FOUND GOD, BECAUSE THE SELF DOES NOT EXIST APART FROM GOD. Commentary: God is merely an abstraction, a thought, a belief, unless experienced directly. And God can and is experienced directly, as the Self. So one who knows the Self knows God. If the ego has been investigated and its illusion penetrated, then the Self is said to be known. In that same moment, God is also found, since the idea of God is nothing other than the Self with a few illusory attributes superimposed. From the view of the ego, God is the whole. That is, the mind is small and limited, and God is large and unlimited. But when the Self is found, this egoic way of looking at the mind and God falls apart. There is then only the Self, which is nothing other than God’s real formless form. God’s worldly attributes — God’s miraculous powers, etc. — are as true or false as the attributes of any individual mind. There is then to be found no distinction between your true form and the true form of God. At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so far here. tee hee gotta' love synchronicity (and all the God-talk that followed). .. I mean, it just happened to be #20 after all, right? My favorite part of keeping Sue company in her education to get baptized by the Catholics: they'd give us these pamphlets each week, and one that just blew her mind had the pointer: "don't settle for the God of your imagination".
|
|
|
Post by siftingtothetruth on Sept 21, 2021 8:55:45 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Nineteen20. HE WHO SEES GOD WITHOUT SEEING THE SELF SEES ONLY A MENTAL IMAGE. THEY SAY THAT HE WHO SEES THE SELF SEES GOD. HE WHO, HAVING COMPLETELY LOST THE EGO, SEES THE SELF, HAS FOUND GOD, BECAUSE THE SELF DOES NOT EXIST APART FROM GOD. Commentary: God is merely an abstraction, a thought, a belief, unless experienced directly. And God can and is experienced directly, as the Self. So one who knows the Self knows God. If the ego has been investigated and its illusion penetrated, then the Self is said to be known. In that same moment, God is also found, since the idea of God is nothing other than the Self with a few illusory attributes superimposed. From the view of the ego, God is the whole. That is, the mind is small and limited, and God is large and unlimited. But when the Self is found, this egoic way of looking at the mind and God falls apart. There is then only the Self, which is nothing other than God’s real formless form. God’s worldly attributes — God’s miraculous powers, etc. — are as true or false as the attributes of any individual mind. There is then to be found no distinction between your true form and the true form of God. At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so far here. tee hee gotta' love synchronicity (and all the God-talk that followed). .. I mean, it just happened to be #20 after all, right? Clever! Is that eduation finished or in process for her?
|
|
|
Post by laughter on Sept 21, 2021 12:20:44 GMT -5
tee hee gotta' love synchronicity (and all the God-talk that followed). .. I mean, it just happened to be #20 after all, right? Clever! Is that eduation finished or in process for her? She got baptized and we continued to attend services - fairly regularly - until covid. Looking forward for the madness to end, we'll likely start up again.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2021 22:10:05 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Nineteen20. HE WHO SEES GOD WITHOUT SEEING THE SELF SEES ONLY A MENTAL IMAGE. THEY SAY THAT HE WHO SEES THE SELF SEES GOD. HE WHO, HAVING COMPLETELY LOST THE EGO, SEES THE SELF, HAS FOUND GOD, BECAUSE THE SELF DOES NOT EXIST APART FROM GOD. Commentary: God is merely an abstraction, a thought, a belief, unless experienced directly. And God can and is experienced directly, as the Self. So one who knows the Self knows God. If the ego has been investigated and its illusion penetrated, then the Self is said to be known. In that same moment, God is also found, since the idea of God is nothing other than the Self with a few illusory attributes superimposed. From the view of the ego, God is the whole. That is, the mind is small and limited, and God is large and unlimited. But when the Self is found, this egoic way of looking at the mind and God falls apart. There is then only the Self, which is nothing other than God’s real formless form. God’s worldly attributes — God’s miraculous powers, etc. — are as true or false as the attributes of any individual mind. There is then to be found no distinction between your true form and the true form of God. At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so far here. Thus duality is undermined and the Nature-state returned to, unless of course you have been Brainwashed and you wish to brainwash many others
as you have taken an oath from some Religious cluster that has a longer-lineage than the other Clusters they compete with.
Ty for this update.
|
|
|
Post by siftingtothetruth on Sept 26, 2021 11:03:02 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Twenty21. WHAT IS THE TRUTH OF THE SCRIPTURES WHICH DECLARE THAT IF ONE SEES THE SELF ONE SEES GOD? HOW CAN ONE SEE ONE'S SELF? IF, SINCE ONE IS A SINGLE BEING, ONE CANNOT SEE ONE'S SELF, HOW CAN ONE SEE GOD? ONLY BY BECOMING A PREY TO HIM. Commentary: The Self cannot be seen as a separate object, and neither can God, whose essence is of course nothing but the Self. Both are said to be seen if the obstacles to recognizing their existence are removed. This obstacle is the belief that you are a separate, individual self. You cannot directly remove that belief; you can only offer yourself up by letting go as much as you can of your attachments to your identity. This is done by firmly turning the mind away from all the objects of experience through self-inquiry or surrender. Then that sense of separation will be removed by divine Grace, and the Truth — the Self in God, the God in Self — will shine, as in fact it always has. The idea that it ever was obscured will be seen to be a misconception, and even that misconception has never existed. At any time, see all the forty verses posts that I have published so far here.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 27, 2021 6:16:42 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Nineteen20. HE WHO SEES GOD WITHOUT SEEING THE SELF SEES ONLY A MENTAL IMAGE. THEY SAY THAT HE WHO SEES THE SELF SEES GOD. HE WHO, HAVING COMPLETELY LOST THE EGO, SEES THE SELF, HAS FOUND GOD, BECAUSE THE SELF DOES NOT EXIST APART FROM GOD. Commentary: God is merely an abstraction, a thought, a belief, unless experienced directly. And God can and is experienced directly, as the Self. So one who knows the Self knows God. If the ego has been investigated and its illusion penetrated, then the Self is said to be known. In that same moment, God is also found, since the idea of God is nothing other than the Self with a few illusory attributes superimposed. From the view of the ego, God is the whole. That is, the mind is small and limited, and God is large and unlimited. But when the Self is found, this egoic way of looking at the mind and God falls apart. There is then only the Self, which is nothing other than God’s real formless form. God’s worldly attributes — God’s miraculous powers, etc. — are as true or false as the attributes of any individual mind. There is then to be found no distinction between your true form and the true form of God. Sifting: This is the first of the Ramana commentaries that contains a claim that seems different from the verse itself. Regarding the bolded part, there are people who penetrate the illusion of ego/self WITHOUT discovering the Self, so those two discoveries are not simultaneous in all cases, or do not even occur, in certain cases. Bankei is just one well-known example. He discovered that he was not who he had thought he was, but it was another year before he discovered the Self. We might even make the distinction between self-realization and Self-realization to highlight this difference. The Ruthless Truth people also come to mind. Many of those folks apparently discovered that they were not SVP's, but based upon what some of them wrote, they definitely hadn't yet discovered the Self, so SR had not occurred. IOW the bolded part is not exactly what Ramana wrote.
|
|
|
Post by siftingtothetruth on Sept 27, 2021 9:35:56 GMT -5
Continued from Verse Nineteen20. HE WHO SEES GOD WITHOUT SEEING THE SELF SEES ONLY A MENTAL IMAGE. THEY SAY THAT HE WHO SEES THE SELF SEES GOD. HE WHO, HAVING COMPLETELY LOST THE EGO, SEES THE SELF, HAS FOUND GOD, BECAUSE THE SELF DOES NOT EXIST APART FROM GOD. Commentary: God is merely an abstraction, a thought, a belief, unless experienced directly. And God can and is experienced directly, as the Self. So one who knows the Self knows God. If the ego has been investigated and its illusion penetrated, then the Self is said to be known. In that same moment, God is also found, since the idea of God is nothing other than the Self with a few illusory attributes superimposed. From the view of the ego, God is the whole. That is, the mind is small and limited, and God is large and unlimited. But when the Self is found, this egoic way of looking at the mind and God falls apart. There is then only the Self, which is nothing other than God’s real formless form. God’s worldly attributes — God’s miraculous powers, etc. — are as true or false as the attributes of any individual mind. There is then to be found no distinction between your true form and the true form of God. Sifting: This is the first of the Ramana commentaries that contains a claim that seems different from the verse itself. Regarding the bolded part, there are people who penetrate the illusion of ego/self WITHOUT discovering the Self, so those two discoveries are not simultaneous in all cases, or do not even occur, in certain cases. Bankei is just one well-known example. He discovered that he was not who he had thought he was, but it was another year before he discovered the Self. We might even make the distinction between self-realization and Self-realization to highlight this difference. The Ruthless Truth people also come to mind. Many of those folks apparently discovered that they were not SVP's, but based upon what some of them wrote, they definitely hadn't yet discovered the Self, so SR had not occurred. IOW the bolded part is not exactly what Ramana wrote. Perhaps the difference lies in the word "completely" which Ramana uses. Perhaps these people you mention who you say 'discover' they are not SVPs have not completely "lost the ego." I personally would not consider someone who does not recognize the Self to have truly discovered the falsehood of the SVP, except at a superficial level.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 27, 2021 12:40:04 GMT -5
Sifting: This is the first of the Ramana commentaries that contains a claim that seems different from the verse itself. Regarding the bolded part, there are people who penetrate the illusion of ego/self WITHOUT discovering the Self, so those two discoveries are not simultaneous in all cases, or do not even occur, in certain cases. Bankei is just one well-known example. He discovered that he was not who he had thought he was, but it was another year before he discovered the Self. We might even make the distinction between self-realization and Self-realization to highlight this difference. The Ruthless Truth people also come to mind. Many of those folks apparently discovered that they were not SVP's, but based upon what some of them wrote, they definitely hadn't yet discovered the Self, so SR had not occurred. IOW the bolded part is not exactly what Ramana wrote. Perhaps the difference lies in the word "completely" which Ramana uses. Perhaps these people you mention who you say 'discover' they are not SVPs have not completely "lost the ego." I personally would not consider someone who does not recognize the Self to have truly discovered the falsehood of the SVP, except at a superficial level. Well, I'm a good example of that specific issue. On the day that the sense of selfhood suddenly and totally vanished, it was realized without any doubt that that there had never been an SVP in any sense. Upon this discovery, the question that then arose in mind was, "If there's no 'me,' then who or what is it that sees?" It was only then that it was realized that what had been seen 15 years earlier during a CC was the real see-er/doer of everything. In Bankei's case, he completely saw through the illusion of selfhood, and this was sanctioned by his master, but when Bankei visited Dosha to get a second sanction (something the Zen tradition requires), Dosha acknowledged Bankei's realization of no SVP but told him that he had not yet penetrated "the matter beyond." Bankei meditated another year before he realized the Self. There are also other examples of this. Several people in the Ruthless Truth group claimed that they had seen through the SVP, but it was clear that they had not seen "beyond." Again, IMO Ramana's words are pointing at something slightly different than your commentary. I don't disagree with the Ramana quote, but I do disagree with that one aspect of the commentary.
|
|
|
Post by siftingtothetruth on Sept 27, 2021 14:12:03 GMT -5
Perhaps the difference lies in the word "completely" which Ramana uses. Perhaps these people you mention who you say 'discover' they are not SVPs have not completely "lost the ego." I personally would not consider someone who does not recognize the Self to have truly discovered the falsehood of the SVP, except at a superficial level. Well, I'm a good example of that specific issue. On the day that the sense of selfhood suddenly and totally vanished, it was realized without any doubt that that there had never been an SVP in any sense. Upon this discovery, the question that then arose in mind was, "If there's no 'me,' then who or what is it that sees?" It was only then that it was realized that what had been seen 15 years earlier during a CC was the real see-er/doer of everything. In Bankei's case, he completely saw through the illusion of selfhood, and this was sanctioned by his master, but when Bankei visited Dosha to get a second sanction (something the Zen tradition requires), Dosha acknowledged Bankei's realization of no SVP but told him that he had not yet penetrated "the matter beyond." Bankei meditated another year before he realized the Self. There are also other examples of this. Several people in the Ruthless Truth group claimed that they had seen through the SVP, but it was clear that they had not seen "beyond." Again, IMO Ramana's words are pointing at something slightly different than your commentary. I don't disagree with the Ramana quote, but I do disagree with that one aspect of the commentary. I would say that on the day the "sense of selfhood suddenly and totally vanished," it actually hadn't. It was only a layer of it that had been through, not the whole thing, since the question that then arose was clearly identified with. The one who asserts that there is seeing -- and then wonders who or what is it that sees -- is itself the SVP. That was the hidden implicit self that had not yet been seen through.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 27, 2021 18:44:51 GMT -5
Well, I'm a good example of that specific issue. On the day that the sense of selfhood suddenly and totally vanished, it was realized without any doubt that that there had never been an SVP in any sense. Upon this discovery, the question that then arose in mind was, "If there's no 'me,' then who or what is it that sees?" It was only then that it was realized that what had been seen 15 years earlier during a CC was the real see-er/doer of everything. In Bankei's case, he completely saw through the illusion of selfhood, and this was sanctioned by his master, but when Bankei visited Dosha to get a second sanction (something the Zen tradition requires), Dosha acknowledged Bankei's realization of no SVP but told him that he had not yet penetrated "the matter beyond." Bankei meditated another year before he realized the Self. There are also other examples of this. Several people in the Ruthless Truth group claimed that they had seen through the SVP, but it was clear that they had not seen "beyond." Again, IMO Ramana's words are pointing at something slightly different than your commentary. I don't disagree with the Ramana quote, but I do disagree with that one aspect of the commentary. I would say that on the day the "sense of selfhood suddenly and totally vanished," it actually hadn't. It was only a layer of it that had been through, not the whole thing, since the question that then arose was clearly identified with. The one who asserts that there is seeing -- and then wonders who or what is it that sees -- is itself the SVP. That was the hidden implicit self that had not yet been seen through. Not a chance in h*ll, but I won't pursue the issue. Everyone's path is unique. FWIW, I've asked a lot of people about their sense of selfhood, and people fall into at least three quite different categories and perhaps more. Some people have what I call "a hard core sense of selfhood" that makes one feel as if s/he is a little entity "inside" the head looking at a world "outside." These people are constantly checking "inside" to see how they feel about things or what they think about things. Their sense of "inside" is almost physically tangible. Other people have a much more diverse sense of selfhood that isn't nearly so well defined. Another group doesn't have a defined sense of selfhood at all, and they will often say things like, "I have no idea who I am." When a hard core sense of selfhood collapses, it totally collapses and totally vanishes along with any sense of "inside." It's almost like an internal switch gets thrown and one's past identity as a distinctly-defined entity vanishes, and it becomes immediately obvious that no such entity ever existed in any sense. This is not a partial collapse; it is total.
|
|
|
Post by siftingtothetruth on Sept 27, 2021 22:02:09 GMT -5
I would say that on the day the "sense of selfhood suddenly and totally vanished," it actually hadn't. It was only a layer of it that had been through, not the whole thing, since the question that then arose was clearly identified with. The one who asserts that there is seeing -- and then wonders who or what is it that sees -- is itself the SVP. That was the hidden implicit self that had not yet been seen through. Not a chance in h*ll, but I won't pursue the issue. Yeah, probably for the best. Happy to agree to disagree.
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Sept 28, 2021 8:58:03 GMT -5
Not a chance in h*ll, but I won't pursue the issue. Everyone's path is unique. FWIW, I've asked a lot of people about their sense of selfhood, and people fall into at least three quite different categories and perhaps more. Some people have what I call "a hard core sense of selfhood" that makes one feel as if s/he is a little entity "inside" the head looking at a world "outside." These people are constantly checking "inside" to see how they feel about things or what they think about things. Their sense of "inside" is almost physically tangible. Other people have a much more diverse sense of selfhood that isn't nearly so well defined. Another group doesn't have a defined sense of selfhood at all, and they will often say things like, "I have no idea who I am." When a hard core sense of selfhood collapses, it totally collapses and totally vanishes along with any sense of "inside." It's almost like an internal switch gets thrown and one's past identity as a distinctly-defined entity vanishes, and it becomes immediately obvious that no such entity ever existed in any sense. This is not a partial collapse; it is total. I don't think about it.. but if pressed I'd likely say the last thing I guess when you ask someone who they are.. they'd say their name and perhaps some list of accomplishments or attributes.. but when you realize that's *not* who you are... what does that leave? Yes, that's the issue. In the case of this character, the two realizations happened sequentially, moments apart, but they didn't happen simultaneously. In the case of Bankei, the second realization happened a year later. After reviewing Bankei's account, and reflecting upon a significant number of people I know personally who attained SR, the sequence is somewhat different for everyone. Some rare folks, such as the Buddha, apparently got the whole thing via one big CC/kensho, but that's uncommon. Its far more common to have a series of insights and kensho events over an extended period of time until the mind is finally put to rest. The Big Picture is then seen and understood, and the natural state is attained. Even then, although seeking comes to an end, the path of Self-discovery never ends because Self is infinite, and, as Jesus supposedly said, "In my Father's house are many mansions."
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Sept 28, 2021 12:36:49 GMT -5
I don't think about it.. but if pressed I'd likely say the last thing I guess when you ask someone who they are.. they'd say their name and perhaps some list of accomplishments or attributes.. but when you realize that's *not* who you are... what does that leave? Yes, that's the issue. In the case of this character, the two realizations happened sequentially, moments apart, but they didn't happen simultaneously. In the case of Bankei, the second realization happened a year later. After reviewing Bankei's account, and reflecting upon a significant number of people I know personally who attained SR, the sequence is somewhat different for everyone. Some rare folks, such as the Buddha, apparently got the whole thing via one big CC/kensho, but that's uncommon. Its far more common to have a series of insights and kensho events over an extended period of time until the mind is finally put to rest. The Big Picture is then seen and understood, and the natural state is attained. Even then, although seeking comes to an end, the path of Self-discovery never ends because Self is infinite, and, as Jesus supposedly said, "In my Father's house are many mansions." Cool, what is this discovery like?
|
|
|
Post by ouroboros on Sept 28, 2021 13:38:03 GMT -5
Yes, that's the issue. In the case of this character, the two realizations happened sequentially, moments apart, but they didn't happen simultaneously. In the case of Bankei, the second realization happened a year later. After reviewing Bankei's account, and reflecting upon a significant number of people I know personally who attained SR, the sequence is somewhat different for everyone. Some rare folks, such as the Buddha, apparently got the whole thing via one big CC/kensho, but that's uncommon. Its far more common to have a series of insights and kensho events over an extended period of time until the mind is finally put to rest. The Big Picture is then seen and understood, and the natural state is attained. Even then, although seeking comes to an end, the path of Self-discovery never ends because Self is infinite, and, as Jesus supposedly said, "In my Father's house are many mansions." See, my interpretation of that would be along the lines that, there are many (or distinct) consciousness' within Consciousness. But I admit to having no context for the way it was supposedly used. That's possibly not entirely at odds with the way you're using it anyway.
|
|