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Post by justlikeyou on May 4, 2022 8:17:39 GMT -5
If it's so obvious.. then make a prediction.. with a short enough time frame to see if it comes true or not. I already did earlier in this thread. To restate, (before too long) those once seen by the masses to be trusted truth-tellers will become seen as liars while those deemed liars by the "trusted truth-tellers" will come to be seen as the real truth tellers. (Can you spot the coordinated talking points here?)
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Post by justlikeyou on May 4, 2022 17:33:12 GMT -5
And I enjoy spirited political debate on occasion.. at Gab Gab? Unlikely but I'll never say never. Thanks for an interesting exchange.
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Post by Reefs on May 5, 2022 5:42:16 GMT -5
I already did earlier in this thread. To restate, (before too long) those once seen by the masses to be trusted truth-tellers will become seen as liars while those deemed liars by the "trusted truth-tellers" will come to be seen as the real truth tellers. Um, I meant a prediction a little more specific than that.. but nevermind thanks for playing And I enjoy spirited political debate on occasion.. at Gab Gab? Unlikely but I'll never say never. Thanks for an interesting exchange. Nice seeing you both having finally come to your senses. Political discussions on a meta level (e.g. "Is Musk showing us a path out of the Matrix or a path that leads further into the Matrix?") are always welcome because this would involve broader philosophical discussions. Political discussions on the daily headlines level (e.g. "Are you with team Johnny or with team Amber?") not so much, they usually deteriorate quickly into pointless food fights about mere personal priorities. Said that, and since this forum is mainly about freedom in the absolute sense (liberation) and not in the relative sense (freedom of speech, freedom of choice etc.), the Musk and transhumanism controversy raises some interesting, broader philosophical questions. I'll give you some examples: 1) Using the Matrix analogy, if everything you perceive is the Matrix, including the choices that are presented to you, what freedom do you have left, ultimately? And does freedom of choice or freedom of speech matter in the Matrix, or is it basically meaningless? 2) Using the Matrix analogy again, has Musk taken on the role of a Neo who can break the Matrix, or does he have the role of a counter-program that is designed to bring a malfunctioning Matrix back into balance again via a shock treatment/reset? (For those who haven't seen the Matrix movies, there have been many versions of the Matrix, not all versions worked, there have been many resets and restarts involved in creating the current more or less stable version of the Matrix) 3) If the ultimate goal is peace of mind, what is the role of freedom of choice and freedom of speech? 4) In the context of TPTPAU, does what the transhumanists are planning even matter? And why?
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Post by lolly on May 5, 2022 6:45:19 GMT -5
The narrative on 'disinformation' is foreboding, so I don't mind the counter movement, though it's publicly led by a guy who wants put chips in yer head (and of course collect all the data for AI). There is a transhumanist trend. 'The future's gonna be weird" ~ Elon Musk. Yes, it's hard to ignore the whole 'I want to put a chip in your head' thing. I'm not a fan of any transhumanism, but he seems superficially to be more of an 'independent' transhumanist to me i.e he doesn't strike me as part of this crowd Musk talks about the stages where initially the neuralink will be for fixing neurological issues and eventuate in becoming a new higher-layer of the brain beyond the reptilian, limbic and neo-cortex. To me that sounds extreme transhumanist. I'm not against it in principle, but knowing the human race, they just push the limits until something breaks. It's a problem with having intelligence without wisdom.
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Post by andrew on May 5, 2022 6:46:27 GMT -5
Um, I meant a prediction a little more specific than that.. but nevermind thanks for playing Gab? Unlikely but I'll never say never. Thanks for an interesting exchange. Nice seeing you both having finally come to your senses. Political discussions on a meta level (e.g. "Is Musk showing us a path out of the Matrix or a path that leads further into the Matrix?") are always welcome because this would involve broader philosophical discussions. Political discussions on the daily headlines level (e.g. "Are you with team Johnny or with team Amber?") not so much, they usually deteriorate quickly into pointless food fights about mere personal priorities. Said that, and since this forum is mainly about freedom in the absolute sense (liberation) and not in the relative sense (freedom of speech, freedom of choice etc.), the Musk and transhumanism controversy raises some interesting, broader philosophical questions. I'll give you some examples: 1) Using the Matrix analogy, if everything you perceive is the Matrix, including the choices that are presented to you, what freedom do you have left, ultimately? And does freedom of choice or freedom of speech matter in the Matrix, or is it basically meaningless? 2) Using the Matrix analogy again, has Musk taken on the role of a Neo who can break the Matrix, or does he have the role of a counter-program that is designed to bring a malfunctioning Matrix back into balance again via a shock treatment/reset? (For those who haven't seen the Matrix movies, there have been many versions of the Matrix, not all versions worked, there have been many resets and restarts involved in creating the current more or less stable version of the Matrix) 3) If the ultimate goal is peace of mind, what is the role of freedom of choice and freedom of speech? 4) In the context of TPTPAU, does what the transhumanists are planning even matter? And why? Your last question is the BIG one as I see it. First, just to say, that I don't see transhumanism developing (at least, much beyond where we are now), but in 2016, Schwab predicted that everyone would be chipped by 2025. And gene editing/human augmentation is openly discussed. If the boogie-man can control your brain, and control your genes, can there still be TPTPAU? Is TPTPAU unconditional to the degree that what's happening in our brain and genes, is of no bearing at all? See in my view, they cannot control humanity, unless they control humanity's spiritual capacity/potential, because fear is integral to the control plans. This also relates to my belief as to why scientism and rationalism has become a cultural trend in the last few years.
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Post by andrew on May 5, 2022 6:54:13 GMT -5
Yes, it's hard to ignore the whole 'I want to put a chip in your head' thing. I'm not a fan of any transhumanism, but he seems superficially to be more of an 'independent' transhumanist to me i.e he doesn't strike me as part of this crowd Musk talks about the stages where initially the neuralink will be for fixing neurological issues and eventuate in becoming a new higher-layer of the brain beyond the reptilian, limbic and neo-cortex. To me that sounds extreme transhumanist. I'm not against it in principle, but knowing the human race, they just push the limits until something breaks. It's a problem with having intelligence without wisdom.
Yes I'm also not against the principle of evolution to new higher-levels, but I believe the brain can perhaps already do that, without this technology. Even if not....as you say, we should really get wiser before we get more intelligent. And yeah, I think the technology would lead to all kinds of problems too of the sort you describe, but also, I think there would be an attempt to control humanity through use of the technology. In bio-ethics journals, they openly discuss 'morality medicine'.
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Post by lolly on May 5, 2022 6:59:24 GMT -5
On the twitter thing, Musk is a guy you can just take at his word. He has been around a long time and has no track record of playing funny buggers. He says what he means and he does what he says. He says he considers Twitter to be the modern version of the Town Square and it needs to be a protected free speech zone within the confines of laws like hate and discrimination laws. It should not be a ideological platform. The algorithm needs to be open source and any human involvement in censoring/banning needs to be transparent. That's what he says and he means it. Not an easy thing. We have seen 'what's true' change in issues like the Biden laptop and the Covid information. People including real investigative journalists and highly qualified medics were censored and banned for posting things we now know are true. Dangerous truths, granted, but by no means disinformative.
The new disinformation department is precisely a ministry of truth, though no worse in principle than Trump's 'alternative facts'. I'm glad Musk is forcing the issue that what is PC isn't necessarily true - and is often a load of bollocks. There are also principles where the truth is supposed to be uncomfortable and sometimes perilous... It's not supposed to be 'comforting', lets just put it that way.
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Post by justlikeyou on May 5, 2022 21:58:11 GMT -5
On the twitter thing, Musk is a guy you can just take at his word. He has been around a long time and has no track record of playing funny buggers. He says what he means and he does what he says. He says he considers Twitter to be the modern version of the Town Square and it needs to be a protected free speech zone within the confines of laws like hate and discrimination laws. It should not be a ideological platform. The algorithm needs to be open source and any human involvement in censoring/banning needs to be transparent. That's what he says and he means it. Not an easy thing. We have seen 'what's true' change in issues like the Biden laptop and the Covid information. People including real investigative journalists and highly qualified medics were censored and banned for posting things we now know are true. Dangerous truths, granted, but by no means disinformative. The new disinformation department is precisely a ministry of truth, though no worse in principle than Trump's 'alternative facts'. I'm glad Musk is forcing the issue that what is PC isn't necessarily true - and is often a load of bollocks. There are also principles where the truth is supposed to be uncomfortable and sometimes perilous... It's not supposed to be 'comforting', lets just put it that way.
Yes. 😊
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Post by justlikeyou on May 20, 2022 20:43:35 GMT -5
And does freedom of choice or freedom of speech matter in the Matrix, or is it basically meaningless? If we are bound to play a game why not play it well? Liberty of the life forms seems to be at stake. Does the human form prefer slavery or freedom by inclination? Do not all creatures long to be free and unencumbered? Is the game so unimportant that we shall be indifferent to slavery in any of its forms?
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Post by Reefs on May 21, 2022 0:36:00 GMT -5
And does freedom of choice or freedom of speech matter in the Matrix, or is it basically meaningless? If we are bound to play a game why not play it well? Liberty of the life forms seems to be at stake. Does the human form prefer slavery or freedom by inclination? Do not all creatures long to be free and unencumbered? Is the game so unimportant that we shall be indifferent to slavery in any of its forms? I was actually planning on doing an extra thread on the Matrix movies and I think I might still do it, but since you are asking, here we go: First we have to define freedom. What does 'freedom' in the Matrix mean? You see, in the Matrix movie, the world that people perceive with their five senses is a carefully crafted computer simulation designed to keep them distracted and essentially sedated. In their minds they live typical lives of the modern technological world, while in actuality their bodies are lying in pods so that their life force, which powers both the machines that built the Matrix as well as the Matrix itself, can be harvested and put to use for other purposes. So the people in the Matrix, while living very engaging or even exciting lives, actually only live surrogate lives. The thoughts they think, the choices they make are not their own, they are creations of the Matrix with the goal to keep them hooked on and plugged into the Matrix forever. If I give you two options that eventually lead to the same result and ask you to choose one, is that actual freedom of choice? Or is that an illusion of freedom of choice? The harsh reality of the Matrix movies is that the people who think and feel free are actually not. They are all in some kind of artificial coma, and from the machine perspective they merely are a human resource in the literal sense, they are the energy source of the machines. The Matrix therefore, no matter how engaging or fascinating or fun, is not built in the best interest of the people. It is built in the best interest of the machines, which in turn are themselves fully dependent on the energy that comes from the people who are plugged into the Matrix. But the people in their half-comatose state don't know that, of course. And so, as long as the people are mesmerized by the Matrix, loving the Matrix or fighting the Matrix - they remain hooked. So how do people get out of that Matrix? They just need to pull the plug. Game over. Now, you could argue that this is practically impossible, given how the Matrix is set up and how the system has been perfected, and how the people are fully under the control of the machines, both mentally and emotionally via the simulation and physically via these pods, which makes it basically impossible for anyone of the people to wake up and break free. And that would probably be true if the Matrix and the people and the machines would be a perfectly running closed system. But it is not. And this is where I think the genius of the Matrix movies lies which very much relates to our own individual situation within cultural, social, political, economic and even environmental systems, i.e. that in reality there are no closed systems. In the movie, the Matrix is not that smoothly running as it seems. There are glitches. And those who are mindful enough notice them. And while the Matrix may fully control the five senses, emotions and thoughts and essentially exploit the will and life force of the people that are plugged into the Matrix, the machines still can't get control of that higher sense of being that is within each of the people. There are always people who question the reality of the Matrix, who have a desire to understand the Matrix and to leave the Matrix and follow their own, individual, true purpose instead of those predefined paths given by the Matrix. Remember, in the later Matrix movies it is revealed that there have been numerous version of the Matrix and every version had its Neo(s) that broke free and freed others. Even in the latest Matrix movie where Neo and Trinity are fully asleep in the Matrix again and all efforts of the Matrix programming is on keeping them sound asleep, both Trinity and especially Neo (who is popping blue pills all day, to no avail), can't help but notice this nagging feeling that something isn't quite right with their world. So while the Matrix may get control of the physical aspects of the life force of people, it fails to do so with the non-physical aspects. And in the greater scheme of things, that's the only aspect that matters, because the physical is an extension of the the non-physical, the non-physical sustains the physical, in the same way the machines are an extension of the people that they enslave, the people sustain the machines and - ironically - their own system of enslavement. So, there is always a very simple and instant solution to the whole Matrix problem. Someone just needs to pull the plug. That's the straight and direct way out of the Matrix into actual freedom. Asking or fighting for a better version of the Matrix only means going for another round in the Matrix into a different, better illusion of freedom. And if the goal is to play and have fun, that might even be okay, but not if the goal is true and lasting freedom. We have similar discussions on the forum all the time about spiritual experiences vs. Self-realization. Self-realization is like pulling the plug on the Matrix. Spiritual experiences is like going for another round in an improved version of the Matrix. So when we look at topics that arouse the collective consciousness, like let's say Amber vs. Johnny or Musk vs. Twitter, do we look at it with our Matrix eyes or with our own eyes? If we look with our Matrix eyes, then chances are the Matrix has already prepared several choices for us so that we reach a pre-defined opinion or conclusion that is in the best interest of the Matrix, and most people will probably follow those suggestions, convinced they've made up their own minds after considering all the facts the Matrix carefully presented to them, while in reality, if you consider that it's all a Matrix inside job all the time, it was, at best, nothing more than the result of guided thinking. So if we look with our own eyes, what do we see? Who or what are these people in the Matrix that we are told matter so much that they fill up all the currently available space in the collective mind? Why do they matter? Or do they?
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Post by lolly on May 21, 2022 8:27:21 GMT -5
I guess you've heard about Musk being involved in this latest sex-for-horse mile-high club scandal.
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Post by justlikeyou on May 21, 2022 9:18:43 GMT -5
Someone just needs to pull the plug. That's the straight and direct way out of the Matrix into actual freedom. Sure, but even still, until you leave the form behind completely you still have to wipe your butt.
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Post by Reefs on May 21, 2022 10:05:58 GMT -5
I guess you've heard about Musk being involved in this latest sex-for-horse mile-high club scandal. There's no end to fascinating Matrix stories, is there?
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Post by Reefs on May 21, 2022 10:08:32 GMT -5
Someone just needs to pull the plug. That's the straight and direct way out of the Matrix into actual freedom. Sure, but even still, until you leave the form behind completely you still have to wipe your butt. C'mon, after all these years on this forum, you should know the drill: there is no one wiping butts. Butt wiping just happens.
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Post by justlikeyou on May 21, 2022 14:02:11 GMT -5
Sure, but even still, until you leave the form behind completely you still have to wipe your butt. C'mon, after all these years on this forum, you should know the drill: there is no one wiping butts. Butt wiping just happens. I know. And in the same way preferences happen. For order and decorum on an internet board, or for the ability to speak freely and unrestricted in a town square.
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