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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 22:36:44 GMT -5
That's because everything starts rolling out after I set an intention, If my intention is the intention of other person, then that should be the intention of All That Is which orchestrate everything else together and also If this is the case, then I am not creating anything instead I am simply in the flow and this goes back to our argument of predetermination! IOW, you can't be sure and will never know. You are simply assuming that this is the case as you are simply assuming that there are other perceivers. And this has nothing to do with predetermination. Even in the case that you are not deciding anything, that doesn't automatically mean that everything has to be predetermined. The mind that manipulates the events starts to kicks in when you start to see the image in your mind's eye. Other perceivers will be moved like objects. You have to see this for yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 22:44:48 GMT -5
yes, but true nature of other person can't be known because actuality beyond the appearance can't be known. For an example, you would be believing that the people who are appearing in your nightly seems to be real and you must have believed that way but upon your awakening, you know you have mistaken the dream for happening. Don't get lost in hypotheticals, those are just mind games and they don't solve anything. Let's get back to the basics instead. There is only what you are. Once you've realized that, how can there still be any doubt about the true nature of anything or anybody? Realizing your own true nature and realizing the true nature of everything and everyone else are one and the same. Which means this kind of doubt about the true nature of others can only remain as long as you haven't realized your own true nature. It's that simple. Can you please answer my question. Aren't you believing that others are perceivers while you dream?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 22:49:28 GMT -5
There is no separate individual present here to create their reality into yours. Everything moves as one. If you have the intention to create something in your reality, then other people will not be having the intention to create something other than what you intended because THERE IS Only One Creator in the play. This has nothing to do with separation. Just think of the cells in the body, they are not separate, they move as one and yet they all do their own thing and one cell can't create for the another cell and yet it's all one organism. It has absolutely something to do with separation. If there is separation, then other one can choose against what you are choosing to create. That is what brings the shared reality but unfortunately, there is no shared reality here, there is no separate reality here too. There is one creator creates, so other people can't choose to create something which is against what you have chosen because there is no others. You don't have to fight to create your reality, manifest a line out of infinite with your belief.
yes, there is a perfect co-ordination among them.They all move as one! Did you notice that?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2020 23:03:17 GMT -5
I always understood it as some kind of ballpark figure. And the actual numbers are getting smaller over time. I think it's something like 13 seconds now. The point though is that there is a time lag built in the creation process. And this is about manifesting something physical, like a car. And I bet the number of people who manifest a new car in their garage before they finish the thought is close to zero (if not zero). Well, here's a good question for Gopal, how does he know that he's the God in this scenario, that he's not actually fooling himself or being fooled by those other creators who might actually controlling his thoughts and actions and manifestations into making him believe that it's all his own choices, decisions and actions while in reality he's got no say whatsoever? I don't think he can say for sure, given his perspective. Conscious manifestation is zero for mostly everybody here, otherwise we wouldn't be here. To understand who, what, how, when, ... creates, you have to have a model in which that is possible. God is only a placeholder in that model. As long as one believes there is an objective physical reality that we-here perceive, that model won't work (in my opinion). Then you simply haven't explored much. If you plan out to build a home, then it starts with the thought and then you would be taking action to build a home until the end. Then your house is ready, manifestation is over. It starts with the thought and you created it. Same happens here, but the difference here is, you don't have to do anything other than holding the image in your mind's eye, Once it's ready, then the boll starts rolling, following your mind's image, mind which manipulates the events kicks in and it continue to work until your final manifestation. People are finding this to be difficult to believe in because they are not familiar with this creative aspect of mind, they know mind creates new ideas but they do know the fact that mind manipulates the events as well.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 20, 2020 0:43:05 GMT -5
Conscious manifestation is zero for mostly everybody here, otherwise we wouldn't be here. To understand who, what, how, when, ... creates, you have to have a model in which that is possible. God is only a placeholder in that model. As long as one believes there is an objective physical reality that we-here perceive, that model won't work (in my opinion). 'Here' meaning what - this forum or this planet? I'm not quite understanding what you are saying here, do you mean in an objective physical reality model there's no room for personal creators? I don't know what a "personal creator" is. "Here" means physical reality, which I believe to be a subjective reality, which everyone (every unit of consciousness, not humans only) creates a personal version of, and doesn't sense it through their five senses (there is no objective reality to be sensed). I was stating that none of the participants into this physical reality can consciously manifest what they want, or they wouldn't be here anymore. To learn to do that is the reason for being here. Obviously, this is what I believe.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 20, 2020 0:52:56 GMT -5
Conscious manifestation is zero for mostly everybody here, otherwise we wouldn't be here. To understand who, what, how, when, ... creates, you have to have a model in which that is possible. God is only a placeholder in that model. As long as one believes there is an objective physical reality that we-here perceive, that model won't work (in my opinion). Then you simply haven't explored much. If you plan out to build a home, then it starts with the thought and then you would be taking action to build a home until the end. Then your house is ready, manifestation is over. It starts with the thought and you created it. Same happens here, but the difference here is, you don't have to do anything other than holding the image in your mind's eye, Once it's ready, then the boll starts rolling, following your mind's image, mind which manipulates the events kicks in and it continue to work until your final manifestation. People are finding this to be difficult to believe in because they are not familiar with this creative aspect of mind, they know mind creates new ideas but they do know the fact that mind manipulates the events as well. I believe I explored more than you did. I don't believe you can manifest the way you described (I don't claim I can). If you could you wouldn't be here anymore, in the physical reality. It doesn't work as you described it. There is no mind's eye, no ball rolling. We may differ in semantics ... your subconscious creates your own version of reality; that is the only creation. You, as I share opinions, beliefs on the subject.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2020 1:23:37 GMT -5
Then you simply haven't explored much. If you plan out to build a home, then it starts with the thought and then you would be taking action to build a home until the end. Then your house is ready, manifestation is over. It starts with the thought and you created it. Same happens here, but the difference here is, you don't have to do anything other than holding the image in your mind's eye, Once it's ready, then the boll starts rolling, following your mind's image, mind which manipulates the events kicks in and it continue to work until your final manifestation. People are finding this to be difficult to believe in because they are not familiar with this creative aspect of mind, they know mind creates new ideas but they do know the fact that mind manipulates the events as well. I believe I explored more than you did. I don't believe you can manifest the way you described (I don't claim I can). If you could you wouldn't be here anymore, in the physical reality. It doesn't work as you described it. There is no mind's eye, no ball rolling. We may differ in semantics ... your subconscious creates your own version of reality; that is the only creation. You, as I share opinions, beliefs on the subject. If you hold something in your mind's eye, then the mind which creates the events kicks in and you are going to manifest it. The same happens in lucid dream but in lucid dream it would be very fast, it's instantaneous but here in physical reality it's very slow, but it manifests nonetheless with the given condition that you hold the image of your desire reality.
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Post by laughter on Sept 20, 2020 12:40:09 GMT -5
'Here' meaning what - this forum or this planet? I'm not quite understanding what you are saying here, do you mean in an objective physical reality model there's no room for personal creators? I don't know what a "personal creator" is. "Here" means physical reality, which I believe to be a subjective reality, which everyone (every unit of consciousness, not humans only) creates a personal version of, and doesn't sense it through their five senses (there is no objective reality to be sensed). I was stating that none of the participants into this physical reality can consciously manifest what they want, or they wouldn't be here anymore. To learn to do that is the reason for being here. Obviously, this is what I believe. I think that I understand why you say this, but can you spell it out? Why wouldn't someone who could consciously create be "here in this reality"? For instance, if they got to that point, why wouldn't they "stay"?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2020 12:55:06 GMT -5
I don't know what a "personal creator" is. "Here" means physical reality, which I believe to be a subjective reality, which everyone (every unit of consciousness, not humans only) creates a personal version of, and doesn't sense it through their five senses (there is no objective reality to be sensed). I was stating that none of the participants into this physical reality can consciously manifest what they want, or they wouldn't be here anymore. To learn to do that is the reason for being here. Obviously, this is what I believe. I think that I understand why you say this, but can you spell it out? Why wouldn't someone who could consciously create be "here in this reality"? For instance, if they got to that point, why wouldn't they "stay"? I don't get the logic as well.
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Post by inavalan on Sept 20, 2020 15:06:14 GMT -5
I don't know what a "personal creator" is. "Here" means physical reality, which I believe to be a subjective reality, which everyone (every unit of consciousness, not humans only) creates a personal version of, and doesn't sense it through their five senses (there is no objective reality to be sensed). I was stating that none of the participants into this physical reality can consciously manifest what they want, or they wouldn't be here anymore. To learn to do that is the reason for being here. Obviously, this is what I believe. I think that I understand why you say this, but can you spell it out? Why wouldn't someone who could consciously create be "here in this reality"? For instance, if they got to that point, why wouldn't they "stay"? "This" is a training ground to acquire a skill: creating reality consciously. Once you learned it, you graduate to the next level. It is like going to school, taking a class, graduate, move to the next level. Actually "here" is a practice place, a "lab". The you-who-takes-the-decision-to-attend "here" isn't the conscious-you-who-attends-the-lab. The latter one is just you when a pupil, a temporary function, position, an episode. There is no "here" in an objective sense, as there is no "here" in your dream, or in a virtual application (game, class, lab, etc.).
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Post by laughter on Sept 20, 2020 16:04:33 GMT -5
I think that I understand why you say this, but can you spell it out? Why wouldn't someone who could consciously create be "here in this reality"? For instance, if they got to that point, why wouldn't they "stay"? "This" is a training ground to acquire a skill: creating reality consciously. Once you learned it, you graduate to the next level. It is like going to school, taking a class, graduate, move to the next level. Actually "here" is a practice place, a "lab". The you-who-takes-the-decision-to-attend "here" isn't the conscious-you-who-attends-the-lab. The latter one is just you when a pupil, a temporary function, position, an episode. There is no "here" in an objective sense, as there is no "here" in your dream, or in a virtual application (game, class, lab, etc.). O.k., well, to extend the metaphor, some people like college and prolong it for as long as they can, getting multiple degrees. Why wouldn't that happen "here"?
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Post by inavalan on Sept 20, 2020 19:58:54 GMT -5
"This" is a training ground to acquire a skill: creating reality consciously. Once you learned it, you graduate to the next level. It is like going to school, taking a class, graduate, move to the next level. Actually "here" is a practice place, a "lab". The you-who-takes-the-decision-to-attend "here" isn't the conscious-you-who-attends-the-lab. The latter one is just you when a pupil, a temporary function, position, an episode. There is no "here" in an objective sense, as there is no "here" in your dream, or in a virtual application (game, class, lab, etc.). O.k., well, to extend the metaphor, some people like college and prolong it for as long as they can, getting multiple degrees. Why wouldn't that happen "here"? I guess those aren't mature (evolved) enough ... to graduate. You can't get an additional degree attending the same class, not even on Earth.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2020 21:31:30 GMT -5
"This" is a training ground to acquire a skill: creating reality consciously. Once you learned it, you graduate to the next level. It is like going to school, taking a class, graduate, move to the next level. Actually "here" is a practice place, a "lab". The you-who-takes-the-decision-to-attend "here" isn't the conscious-you-who-attends-the-lab. The latter one is just you when a pupil, a temporary function, position, an episode. There is no "here" in an objective sense, as there is no "here" in your dream, or in a virtual application (game, class, lab, etc.). O.k., well, to extend the metaphor, some people like college and prolong it for as long as they can, getting multiple degrees. Why wouldn't that happen "here"? What a funny theory, eh?
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Post by Reefs on Sept 20, 2020 22:38:26 GMT -5
Don't get lost in hypotheticals, those are just mind games and they don't solve anything. Let's get back to the basics instead. There is only what you are. Once you've realized that, how can there still be any doubt about the true nature of anything or anybody? Realizing your own true nature and realizing the true nature of everything and everyone else are one and the same. Which means this kind of doubt about the true nature of others can only remain as long as you haven't realized your own true nature. It's that simple. Can you please answer my question. Aren't you believing that others are perceivers while you dream? This is where you keep mixing contexts. Why would it matter what I believe in a dream? What matters is what is happening HERE, NOW - free from anything imagined. You always try to bring this conversation back to the level of imagination. But I'll play your game just for fun. Let's assume I believe that others are perceivers while I dream? So what? What does that tell us about the nature of reality? Nothing. Now, let's then assume I believe that others are not perceivers while I dream. What does that tell us about the nature of reality? Nothing. It only tells us something about the nature of my dream experiences. That's all. Comparing experiences will only tell you something about the nature of experiences. You gotta stop comparing dream state to waking state, one experience to another experience if you want to actually learn something about the true nature of reality. As long as you keep comparing experiences you will stay mesmerized by the simulation and actually never leave the simulation. But in order to learn something about the nature of reality, not just the nature of the simulation, you need to step out of the simulation, which in your case means stop comparing dream state to waking state, stop assigning any importance to these hypotheticals. Instead, be fully HERE, NOW. That's how you step out of the simulation, and that's how you can see, really see. As long as you are mesmerized by the simulation, you don't really see, you only imagine which you call seeing.
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Post by Reefs on Sept 20, 2020 22:50:26 GMT -5
This has nothing to do with separation. Just think of the cells in the body, they are not separate, they move as one and yet they all do their own thing and one cell can't create for the another cell and yet it's all one organism. It has absolutely something to do with separation. If there is separation, then other one can choose against what you are choosing to create. That is what brings the shared reality but unfortunately, there is no shared reality here, there is no separate reality here too. There is one creator creates, so other people can't choose to create something which is against what you have chosen because there is no others. You don't have to fight to create your reality, manifest a line out of infinite with your belief.
yes, there is a perfect co-ordination among them.They all move as one! Did you notice that?
You keep mixing contexts. You want to apply what is only true from the impersonal perspective to the personal perspective. That's why your theory is such a mess and not adding up. You can talk about all being one and moving as one and no separation and there being no others. That's fine. In that case, there are no personal creators and the question about there being other perceives has no basis. But then in the same breath you start talking about creating in other people's reality and not being able to know if there are even other perceivers - which is the personal context. You can't have it both ways. You either talk about this from the impersonal context, i.e. oneness, no others, no personal creators, only spontaneous unfolding or you talk about this from the personal context, i.e. separation, otherness, personal creators, predetermination. But you can't mix this as you are always doing, i.e. talking about predetermination and how you personally will your preferred reality into being and even let do others as you please - that's the SVP trying to be God. And that's a nonsense. The SVP believing to be an extension of Source or God, that's fine. But the SVP believing to be Source or God, that's a recipe for disaster.
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