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Post by justlikeyou on Apr 8, 2020 18:05:59 GMT -5
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Post by zendancer on Apr 9, 2020 7:56:40 GMT -5
I'm just curious but does that mean that there are 425 deaths from other causes each day plus the additional Covid deaths? No, that 425 is just dividing the total number of NYS deaths in 2017 (155,191) by 365, so since the reported covid deaths the other day were over 700, obviously this event is quite significant, regardless of the specifics of determining cause of death. There have been criticisms (which I find valid) of the covid total because (as per Birx), any death with covid is being counted as by covid. This has apparently led to a distortion, for example, in the suppression of the number of deaths by pneumonia. It's why I've been curious as to the total number of deaths per day of all causes. I doubt that the authorities are inflating the actual number of dead bodies, so, I'm even more convinced, at this point, of the significance of this event. On a different, but related topic, I was curious as to why high blood pressure, in particular, would be a greater risk factor of severe covid symptoms. Why and how would hypertension, in particular, relate to a respiratory disease? Someone mentioned to me yesterday that there's apparently a study out of Europe that suggests the chemistry and physics of ace inhibitor's exacerbates the effects of the virus. So, it seems (if this is true), rather than advising Americans who take ace inhibitors of the risk, our authorities have instead bundled this information in terms of describing the populations who are at risk. This is reprehensible. Misinforming people of the benefits of a mask to stop a run on them was one thing, this, is quite another.
Ok, thanks. I understand. I had wondered about the high blood pressure thing, too, but hadn't thought about the effect of the drugs people take to keep it under control. This morning on CNBC Bill Gates gave the most thorough explanation I've heard regarding what's being done regarding the research into both a vaccine and therapeutic drugs, and he included lots of other interesting info. The biggest failure here has been the failure to have fast testing available countrywide and overall management/leadership coordinating everything. He said that the mortality rate for the virus is about 1.2% based on data from all over the world. It will probably be much higher than that after the virus spreads into undeveloped nations where healthcare is negligible and social distancing will not be pursued. |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 9, 2020 8:14:30 GMT -5
Bill Gates' estimate of 1.2% may be a bit too low. Germany has done extensive testing (which lowers the fatality rate due to a more accurate denominator), and it has had a 1.9% fatality rate. Italy's high mortality rate is almost surely due to lack of testing. Germany's investigatory approach was so thorough that they were able to trace contamination between people to single acts, such as passing a salt shaker from an infected person to a non-infected person. Pretty amazing.
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Post by Reefs on Apr 9, 2020 11:14:47 GMT -5
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Post by laughter on Apr 9, 2020 11:21:41 GMT -5
No, that 425 is just dividing the total number of NYS deaths in 2017 (155,191) by 365, so since the reported covid deaths the other day were over 700, obviously this event is quite significant, regardless of the specifics of determining cause of death. There have been criticisms (which I find valid) of the covid total because (as per Birx), any death with covid is being counted as by covid. This has apparently led to a distortion, for example, in the suppression of the number of deaths by pneumonia. It's why I've been curious as to the total number of deaths per day of all causes. I doubt that the authorities are inflating the actual number of dead bodies, so, I'm even more convinced, at this point, of the significance of this event. On a different, but related topic, I was curious as to why high blood pressure, in particular, would be a greater risk factor of severe covid symptoms. Why and how would hypertension, in particular, relate to a respiratory disease? Someone mentioned to me yesterday that there's apparently a study out of Europe that suggests the chemistry and physics of ace inhibitor's exacerbates the effects of the virus. So, it seems (if this is true), rather than advising Americans who take ace inhibitors of the risk, our authorities have instead bundled this information in terms of describing the populations who are at risk. This is reprehensible. Misinforming people of the benefits of a mask to stop a run on them was one thing, this, is quite another.
Ok, thanks. I understand. I had wondered about the high blood pressure thing, too, but hadn't thought about the effect of the drugs people take to keep it under control. This morning on CNBC Bill Gates gave the most thorough explanation I've heard regarding what's being done regarding the research into both a vaccine and therapeutic drugs, and he included lots of other interesting info. The biggest failure here has been the failure to have fast testing available countrywide and overall management/leadership coordinating everything. He said that the mortality rate for the virus is about 1.2% based on data from all over the world. It will probably be much higher than that after the virus spreads into undeveloped nations where healthcare is negligible and social distancing will not be pursued. My mother-in-law worked for the city as an (MD) administrator, with her office in Elmhurst hospital, although she retired many years ago. She said something similar: that contact tracing failed in NY because of a lack of access to testing materials. If you'll recall, they did make an effort, starting with the lawyer from New Rochelle. But by the time they'd discovered it in him the spread had probably been far and wide. They couldn't explain where he'd picked it up - he hadn't traveled, and had no obvious contact with anyone who had. Notice that the only reason he likely was tested was because of the healthcare he had access to - another thing Mom mentioned, that the tests were available to those who could pay enough. Also notice yesterday's reports of U.S. intelligence briefings on the Wuhan coronavirus from NOVEMBER (!!). Interesting to me that the media is talking out of both sides of their mouth: they repeat the statements of the Chinese government without question, and then take as credible reports that conflict with those statements as if that never happened. This is rather Orwellian, to say the least. Bill Gates has worked hard to establish himself as a humanitarian over the years, but here's a laundry list of why he should be trusted to the same extent one might trust the Chinese government. Anyone who ever installed Windows versions 3-8, or was responsible for the security of a network prior to 2015 knows of the profound technical inferiority of Microsoft products. So how was he able to secure his monopoly (as ruled by the US Federal Court system)? My answer to that question certainly involves the perspective of opinion, but it's one grounded in facts: a top-down, winner-take-all psuedomarket, the mechanics of which are dictated by who has the most financing, the same structure of which was repeated in the way the internet was built out. This has given us the Frankenstein of today's Big Tech. True enough that Microsoft broke the back of an older monopoly (IBM), but it's a textbook example of how two (and then followed by a string) of wrongs, don't make a right. So that was Bill the businessman, and now that he's done all that damage, he's going to donate the proceeds anyway, and he must be really really smart to have been so successful, so now we should listen to him, right? Nah, that's an intellectual fallacy, demonstrated, quite starkly by his philanthropic fails. The rank corruption of the Clinton Foundation - one of his conspicuous partners in his re-boot as a philanthropist - has been more than well-documented. So, in terms of what he has to say, there might be some factual content, but in terms of policy, I'd be inclined to lean in the opposite direction from his conclusions. Authoritarian regimes are inevitably the source of stark contradictions that embody the story of the naked emperor. Where is the truth of a policy of open American external borders, coupled with this suggestion that we follow the Chinese lead of a social score in order to be able to move internally, right down to the blood test to prove our fitness for the company of others? What's really fascinating here is how this regime is attempting to insinuate itself on populations that are supposedly self-governing, all without the consent of the supposedly self-governed. The estimates of the deaths and the resources necessary to deal with the pandemic were grossly over-estimated. There may have been a valid policy goal behind that, but the cost/benefit ratio is clearly questionable. You're right that we need smart leadership, and I hope that they can see through the power grab here. Walmart, Amazon and Domino's pizza are hiring massive numbers of new employees, while the unconnected masses are doled out loans of money we don't have less than the taxes they payed last year. There is an Orwellian machine operating on your phone, computer and cable box. The components of it are expertly crafted, but the overall design of it, was completely unintentional. The cost/benefit of allowing this machine to continue to evolve by the current set of rules is exploding, exponentially. |
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Post by zendancer on Apr 9, 2020 12:28:31 GMT -5
Ok, thanks. I understand. I had wondered about the high blood pressure thing, too, but hadn't thought about the effect of the drugs people take to keep it under control. This morning on CNBC Bill Gates gave the most thorough explanation I've heard regarding what's being done regarding the research into both a vaccine and therapeutic drugs, and he included lots of other interesting info. The biggest failure here has been the failure to have fast testing available countrywide and overall management/leadership coordinating everything. He said that the mortality rate for the virus is about 1.2% based on data from all over the world. It will probably be much higher than that after the virus spreads into undeveloped nations where healthcare is negligible and social distancing will not be pursued. My mother-in-law worked for the city as an (MD) administrator, with her office in Elmhurst hospital, although she retired many years ago. She said something similar: that contact tracing failed in NY because of a lack of access to testing materials. If you'll recall, they did make an effort, starting with the lawyer from New Rochelle. But by the time they'd discovered it in him the spread had probably been far and wide. They couldn't explain where he'd picked it up - he hadn't traveled, and had no obvious contact with anyone who had. Notice that the only reason he likely was tested was because of the healthcare he had access to - another thing Mom mentioned, that the tests were available to those who could pay enough. Also notice yesterday's reports of U.S. intelligence briefings on the Wuhan coronavirus from NOVEMBER (!!). Interesting to me that the media is talking out of both sides of their mouth: they repeat the statements of the Chinese government without question, and then take as credible reports that conflict with those statements as if that never happened. This is rather Orwellian, to say the least. Bill Gates has worked hard to establish himself as a humanitarian over the years, but here's a laundry list of why he should be trusted to the same extent one might trust the Chinese government. Anyone who ever installed Windows versions 3-8, or was responsible for the security of a network prior to 2015 knows of the profound technical inferiority of Microsoft products. So how was he able to secure his monopoly (as ruled by the US Federal Court system)? My answer to that question certainly involves the perspective of opinion, but it's one grounded in facts: a top-down, winner-take-all psuedomarket, the mechanics of which are dictated by who has the most financing, the same structure of which was repeated in the way the internet was built out. This has given us the Frankenstein of today's Big Tech. True enough that Microsoft broke the back of an older monopoly (IBM), but it's a textbook example of how two (and then followed by a string) of wrongs, don't make a right. So that was Bill the businessman, and now that he's done all that damage, he's going to donate the proceeds anyway, and he must be really really smart to have been so successful, so now we should listen to him, right? Nah, that's an intellectual fallacy, demonstrated, quite starkly by his philanthropic fails. The rank corruption of the Clinton Foundation - one of his conspicuous partners in his re-boot as a philanthropist - has been more than well-documented. So, in terms of what he has to say, there might be some factual content, but in terms of policy, I'd be inclined to lean in the opposite direction from his conclusions. Authoritarian regimes are inevitably the source of stark contradictions that embody the story of the naked emperor. Where is the truth of a policy of open American external borders, coupled with this suggestion that we follow the Chinese lead of a social score in order to be able to move internally, right down to the blood test to prove our fitness for the company of others? What's really fascinating here is how this regime is attempting to insinuate itself on populations that are supposedly self-governing, all without the consent of the supposedly self-governed. The estimates of the deaths and the resources necessary to deal with the pandemic were grossly over-estimated. There may have been a valid policy goal behind that, but the cost/benefit ratio is clearly questionable. You're right that we need smart leadership, and I hope that they can see through the power grab here. Walmart, Amazon and Domino's pizza are hiring massive numbers of new employees, while the unconnected masses are doled out loans of money we don't have less than the taxes they payed last year. There is an Orwellian machine operating on your phone, computer and cable box. The components of it are expertly crafted, but the overall design of it, was completely unintentional. The cost/benefit of allowing this machine to continue to evolve by the current set of rules is exploding, exponentially. FWIW, the Germans were so quick with their testing and with realizing what was happening that they actually identified patient zero, and traced all of her contacts, and then the chain of contacts that led from there. As for New York, one genetic lab this morning claimed that the strain of virus that infected people in that state was European in origin rather than Asian. I had no idea that testing can reveal slight genetic variations in the virus depending upon the area of origin. Apparently the virus mutates fairly rapidly and there are now at least six detectable strains in circulation. As for Gates, he can certainly be faulted for producing a less than elegant operating system (I gave up on PC's long ago and shifted to Macs), but his humanitarian work in the field of medicine has been admirable and approached with a high degree of intelligence IMO. If I were going to leave money to a charitable foundation, his would be high on the list. |
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Post by laughter on Apr 9, 2020 13:17:02 GMT -5
My mother-in-law worked for the city as an (MD) administrator, with her office in Elmhurst hospital, although she retired many years ago. She said something similar: that contact tracing failed in NY because of a lack of access to testing materials. If you'll recall, they did make an effort, starting with the lawyer from New Rochelle. But by the time they'd discovered it in him the spread had probably been far and wide. They couldn't explain where he'd picked it up - he hadn't traveled, and had no obvious contact with anyone who had. Notice that the only reason he likely was tested was because of the healthcare he had access to - another thing Mom mentioned, that the tests were available to those who could pay enough. Also notice yesterday's reports of U.S. intelligence briefings on the Wuhan coronavirus from NOVEMBER (!!). Interesting to me that the media is talking out of both sides of their mouth: they repeat the statements of the Chinese government without question, and then take as credible reports that conflict with those statements as if that never happened. This is rather Orwellian, to say the least. Bill Gates has worked hard to establish himself as a humanitarian over the years, but here's a laundry list of why he should be trusted to the same extent one might trust the Chinese government. Anyone who ever installed Windows versions 3-8, or was responsible for the security of a network prior to 2015 knows of the profound technical inferiority of Microsoft products. So how was he able to secure his monopoly (as ruled by the US Federal Court system)? My answer to that question certainly involves the perspective of opinion, but it's one grounded in facts: a top-down, winner-take-all psuedomarket, the mechanics of which are dictated by who has the most financing, the same structure of which was repeated in the way the internet was built out. This has given us the Frankenstein of today's Big Tech. True enough that Microsoft broke the back of an older monopoly (IBM), but it's a textbook example of how two (and then followed by a string) of wrongs, don't make a right. So that was Bill the businessman, and now that he's done all that damage, he's going to donate the proceeds anyway, and he must be really really smart to have been so successful, so now we should listen to him, right? Nah, that's an intellectual fallacy, demonstrated, quite starkly by his philanthropic fails. The rank corruption of the Clinton Foundation - one of his conspicuous partners in his re-boot as a philanthropist - has been more than well-documented. So, in terms of what he has to say, there might be some factual content, but in terms of policy, I'd be inclined to lean in the opposite direction from his conclusions. Authoritarian regimes are inevitably the source of stark contradictions that embody the story of the naked emperor. Where is the truth of a policy of open American external borders, coupled with this suggestion that we follow the Chinese lead of a social score in order to be able to move internally, right down to the blood test to prove our fitness for the company of others? What's really fascinating here is how this regime is attempting to insinuate itself on populations that are supposedly self-governing, all without the consent of the supposedly self-governed. The estimates of the deaths and the resources necessary to deal with the pandemic were grossly over-estimated. There may have been a valid policy goal behind that, but the cost/benefit ratio is clearly questionable. You're right that we need smart leadership, and I hope that they can see through the power grab here. Walmart, Amazon and Domino's pizza are hiring massive numbers of new employees, while the unconnected masses are doled out loans of money we don't have less than the taxes they payed last year. There is an Orwellian machine operating on your phone, computer and cable box. The components of it are expertly crafted, but the overall design of it, was completely unintentional. The cost/benefit of allowing this machine to continue to evolve by the current set of rules is exploding, exponentially. FWIW, the Germans were so quick with their testing and with realizing what was happening that they actually identified patient zero, and traced all of her contacts, and then the chain of contacts that led from there. As for New York, one genetic lab this morning claimed that the strain of virus that infected people in that state was European in origin rather than Asian. I had no idea that testing can reveal slight genetic variations in the virus depending upon the area of origin. Apparently the virus mutates fairly rapidly and there are now at least six detectable strains in circulation. As for Gates, he can certainly be faulted for producing a less than elegant operating system (I gave up on PC's long ago and shifted to Macs), but his humanitarian work in the field of medicine has been admirable and approached with a high degree of intelligence IMO. If I were going to leave money to a charitable foundation, his would be high on the list. Did you follow the link to the explanation of how his malaria nets polluted water supplies? I suspect that the same tactics he employed to build his monopoly were likely used to craft his current image. Just adopted to a different application. I wonder, how many other instances of unintended consequences are there that we don't know about? Did you ever read any of the material that's been published about the Clinton Foundation? Has either Gates or the Clinton's done any work on American opiod addiction? 'Cause this is the first thing that comes up, about it. Interesting to me that the Huff Post is far from a right-wing mouthpiece. Remove Clinton from the search and it's completely silent with respect to Gates. I'm suspicious of the charitibility of a man who apparently doesn't realize that charity begins at home, no matter how sound his statistical (or other) analyses are, but in this case, even that is in question. And fwiw, the point about Windows wasn't just that it was inelegant, but that it cost countless man-centuries of waste and damage in it's usage, and there was a very real economic and social opportunity cost of having had it imposed on us the way it was. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Apr 11, 2020 9:11:58 GMT -5
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Post by laughter on Apr 11, 2020 14:40:22 GMT -5
And an alternative theory is that California was exposed to covid as early as the fall, and so is actually beyond the curve despite the official narrative. It's not a theory that's currently well supported, but it does seem plausible. It's based on the unusually active flu season that was reported before the covid eclipse, and an anecdotal report of a high % of people having tested positive for the covid antibodies in a one localized sample. There's also a third prong that's quite a bit darker: the possibility that the high death rate in NYC might be due to incorrect treatment. The "protocol", (quoting the following MD), is to put people on a ventilator once their "blood oxygen saturation falls to a certain level" (again, I'm either quoting or closely paraphrasing the MD). This is to treat pneumonia by forcing air into the lungs. But what Cameron says is that he was seeing patients who weren't having trouble breathing, but rather, it seems that there might be some covid patients where the disease doesn't cause pneumonia, but instead interferes with the oxygenation process without filling the lungs with fluid. For those patients, a ventilator set to force pressure in the lungs is not only unhelpful, but (apparently, and again, this is from him and other medical sources, not me) harmful. The rate of death among patients in NYC who go on ventilators is apparently about 80%, and that twice the mortality rate with what usually happens when you treat pneumonia with a ventilator. This is corroborated to some degree by the reports of how some doctors are resorting to a different procedure to directly oxygenate the blood through transfusion. Which is an example of the truth leaking out from around the edges. Now, I'm not 100% convinced of or claiming that any of these alternative narratives and theories are correct, and I don't mean to downplay the significance of the event overall or the likely benefits that have been had by the mitigation strategies employed. But, obviously the IHME models were wrong, and those benefits haven't come without cost. No comment about Gates.  Special thanks to Enigma for his initial post on the topic. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Apr 11, 2020 18:34:23 GMT -5
This is corroborated to some degree by the reports of how some doctors are resorting to a different procedure to directly oxygenate the blood through transfusion. Which is an example of the truth leaking out from around the edges. Yes, there are puzzle pieces and nuggets of phenomenal reality to be found on the edges. This is taken from something I read today in reference to the Doc and his video warning about using ventilation on coronavirus patients that you posted. "The “taking out” of this newly built Communist Chinese warship in a tit-for-tat move retaliation for the coronavirus “taking out” the American aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt eerily comes at the exact same moment bizarre discoveries about the coronavirus disease itself are worrying scientists and doctors the world over—fearful discoveries best exampled in a beyond stunning Ministry of Health (MINZDRAV) research paper examining the death of a 39-year-old coronavirus patient in Moscow who suffered from acute respiratory depression, as well as a plethora of visceral organs and brain edema—but whose MINZDRAV doctor-scientists said that because of all the symptoms evidenced in this patient, the most accurate cause of death should be listed as its being caused by High-Altitude Pulmonary Edema (HAPE)—otherwise know as “altitude sickness”, some of whose symptoms include “tingling” in the extremities, typically presents with a dry cough, with atypical findings, such as substernal chest pain or focal neurological deficits—which lead to “severe breathing problems”—and ultimately death if left untreated—with the most proven efffective treatment being to place the patient in a barometric chamber to restore their oxygen level. Concurring with MINZDRAV doctor-scientists in their HAPE assessment are American doctors fighting on the front line of this coronavirus disease—who are now reporting that their coronavirus patients are experiencing “a strange buzzing sensation throughout their body” akin to “tingling”—as well as their documenting that nearly half of the severe coronavirus cases they’ve seen showed neurological symptoms—and exactly like MINZDRAV doctor-scientists concluded, today sees many American doctors “saying that their coronavirus patients are behaving more like they have high altitude sickness than a viral infection”—such as Maimonides Medical Center infectious disease expert Doctor Cameron Kyle-Sidell, who not only is warning that his coronavirus patients are dying with altitude sickness symptoms, says putting them on ventilators does nothing but hasten their deaths. A warning that spurred MINZDRAV doctor-scientists to reexamine all of the research being done at the Wuhan Institute of Virology located in Communist China—research archived by the United States government in their National Institute of Health Database that went offline a few hours ago with no explanation—a database containing three troubling research papers titled “Sodium Fluoride Causes Oxidative Stress And Apoptosis In The Mouse Liver”, “Effects Of Sodium Fluoride On Blood Cellular And Humoral Immunity In Mice” and “Sodium Fluoride (NaF) Induces The Splenic Apoptosis Via Endoplasmic Reticulum (ER) Stress Pathway In Vivo And In Vitro” produced by Wuhan scientists the past few years—the findings of which showed that fluoride can fatally damage cells in the spleen, one of our organs responsible for maintaining a healthy immune system—and as the “largest peripheral lymphatic organ”, the spleen contains about one-fourth of the body’s lymphocytes and initiates immune responses—thus making it even more concerning that this research was being overseen by top Communist Chinese virology Wuhan scientist Doctor Shi Zhengli—the same Doctor Zhengli who was part of a team that working on a coronavirus project jointly with US doctors in 2014 before it was shut down by the Department of Homeland Security for its being too risky—after which she continued her coronavirus research in Wuhan-China—all of which has led MINZDRAV doctor-scientists to hypothesize that the coronavirus variant causing this pandemic could contain a component making it more deadly to those who consume fluoridated water by rapidly depleting the amount of oxygen in blood—a practice banned by a China that that allows none of its water to be fluoridated, and has an astoundingly low number of coronavirus deaths—as opposed to the United States whose largest cities all consume fluoridated water, while they watch their coronavirus deaths soar above China’s—but if to be proven true by statistical evidence, this MINZDRAV hypothesis would have to be supported by data from the United States proving that the coronavirus was striking hardest at those unable to purchase bottled water, such as poor black and Hispanic peoples living in large cities—as well as the data showing that rural Americans drinking well and spring water are being affected the least by the coronavirus. [Note: Some words and/or phrases appearing in quotes in this report are English language approximations of Russian words/phrases having no exact counterpart.]" |
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Post by justlikeyou on Apr 12, 2020 9:56:14 GMT -5
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Post by Reefs on Apr 12, 2020 10:23:56 GMT -5
I've been fascinated by the number of adults who are isolating themselves and being extremely cautious EXCEPT for their extended families-- and particularly children and grandchildren who have wide interaction with others. They seem to think that they can catch the bug from strangers but not from family members, many of whom go to work and are around other people regularly. It's a rather strange phenomenon exhibited by people who are otherwise highly intelligent. 
Healthy common sense can compensate for nearly every degree of education, but no degree of education can substitute common sense. - Arthur Schopenhauer
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Post by Reefs on Apr 12, 2020 11:08:14 GMT -5
Now, I'm not 100% convinced of or claiming that any of these alternative narratives and theories are correct, and I don't mean to downplay the significance of the event overall or the likely benefits that have been had by the mitigation strategies employed. But, obviously the IHME models were wrong, and those benefits haven't come without cost. No comment about Gates. Special thanks to Enigma for his initial post on the topic. Remember, it's all just empty appearances. And Bill Gates may not even be an actual perceiver after all. Too bad that we can never ever know for sure.  |
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Post by laughter on Apr 12, 2020 15:27:55 GMT -5
Healthy common sense can compensate for nearly every degree of education, but no degree of education can substitute common sense. - Arthur Schopenhauer
(** skijump! **) |
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Post by laughter on Apr 12, 2020 15:28:56 GMT -5
Now, I'm not 100% convinced of or claiming that any of these alternative narratives and theories are correct, and I don't mean to downplay the significance of the event overall or the likely benefits that have been had by the mitigation strategies employed. But, obviously the IHME models were wrong, and those benefits haven't come without cost. No comment about Gates. Special thanks to Enigma for his initial post on the topic. Remember, it's all just empty appearances. And Bill Gates may not even be an actual perceiver after all. Too bad that we can never ever know for sure. I refuse to be the battleground for a perpetual family squabble!  |
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