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Post by krsnaraja on Jan 14, 2020 11:22:10 GMT -5
Like is the opposite of hate. Love encompasses like and hate. Many even say that God is Love. Peace has an opposite. It's war. What encompasses peace and war? Why its love. And why not? whatever you want to call it.. if you're content and happy its all good  Peace.. Make love not war was the battle cry in the mid 60s. |
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Post by enigma on Jan 14, 2020 11:42:37 GMT -5
Mr Self, or Mr Pure Awareness, doesn't know anything about what is happening when mind is not present. Only mind does. It's all you, but that doesn't mean every aspect of you gets the memo. Yes. Scoop up a thimble full of the ocean. The thimble full cannot know the (whole) ocean, but the ocean can know the thimble full. It's a matter of capacity (to comprehend/experience). The ocean knows nothing, but remains deep, silent, immutable while all knowing dances and sparkles upon it's surface. |
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 14, 2020 11:42:56 GMT -5
Well that's the crux of it. You think the experience of pure awareness as fundamental is arrived at as a conclusion after the fact instead of a direct experience happening in the now which is what someone would say who hasn't experienced it, because they think they wouldn't be there to know it. If you put your hand in the fire do you "conclude" you are burning as a result of some kind of realization or do you just feel a burning sensation? Tenka has already stated he came to his conclusion after the fact because mind and the sense of existence were absent during the 'experience'. Somebody registered that experience of pure awareness, and it wasn't pure awareness. And this comes from someone who tells me that consciousness is typing? |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 14, 2020 11:44:07 GMT -5
Yes the sun is always present but when you are asleep what do you know of it? What do you remember of it? There is a time that has passed where it is for most blank where there is not the awareness of I AM aware . When I spoke about the sun initially I spoke about the sun in totality in all it's glory, the love, the joy, the power, the peace as descriptors, but when you are asleep or when you faint is there the totality of what you are present like as i have described? The answer is no, because the sleep and the fainting is all mindful, the clouds obscure the totality of the sun in these instances don't they . This is key to what I am saying and have been saying all along . Okay in my view the difference between sleeping and awake state is that the level of mindfulness has changed. In deep sleep, mind is still present and regulating the body, but there is very low level of mindfulness. A plant has a relatively low level of mindfulness. As adult humans we have high level of mindfulness, but the reason that the 'clouds obscure the sun' isn't because of our high level, it's because of our false beliefs. Our false beliefs provide the cloud cover. I think I am in agreement with you that awareness in its purest form (for me, that would be without body, for you that would be in realization state) is unaware of itself. I understand what you're attempting to say about Tenka's viewpoint, but what would a "realization state" be? Like Satch, I know what the state of pure awareness is (NS) and the fact that awareness can be aware of itself as awareness in the absence of any self reference (I am), but I have no reference for the idea of a realization state. A realization is not a state; it's an event--a sudden seeing of something that is undeniably evident. This is why I still don't understand exactly what happened to Tenka. A conclusion after the fact is a kind of realization, but what happened prior to that that made him conclude what he concluded? In my case, this body/mind organism had already apprehended the Infinite (actually THIS apprehended Itself because there truly was no I am--in any ordinary sense-- involved in that kind of seeing), so after the illusion of the SVP was seen through, it then became obvious that THIS had been the only actor on the stage all along. Tenka mentioned having had CC's prior to whatever happened that causes him to say he was absent, so perhaps some other sort of event was involved? He may have entered some unusual state because somewhere he implies that duration was involved, but I can't remember the details of his description. Perhaps he can explain a bit further. He claims that whatever happened was not a CC and it was not NS, so I'm curious about what kind of event he's pointing to. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 14, 2020 11:44:44 GMT -5
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Post by andrew on Jan 14, 2020 12:05:03 GMT -5
Okay in my view the difference between sleeping and awake state is that the level of mindfulness has changed. In deep sleep, mind is still present and regulating the body, but there is very low level of mindfulness. A plant has a relatively low level of mindfulness. As adult humans we have high level of mindfulness, but the reason that the 'clouds obscure the sun' isn't because of our high level, it's because of our false beliefs. Our false beliefs provide the cloud cover. I think I am in agreement with you that awareness in its purest form (for me, that would be without body, for you that would be in realization state) is unaware of itself. I understand what you're attempting to say about Tenka's viewpoint, but what would a "realization state" be? Like Satch, I know what the state of pure awareness is (NS) and the fact that awareness can be aware of itself as awareness in the absence of any self reference (I am), but I have no reference for the idea of a realization state. A realization is not a state; it's an event--a sudden seeing of something that is undeniably evident. This is why I still don't understand exactly what happened to Tenka. A conclusion after the fact is a kind of realization, but what happened prior to that that made him conclude what he concluded? In my case, this body/mind organism had already apprehended the Infinite (actually THIS apprehended Itself because there truly was I am involved in that kind of seeing), so after the illusion of the SVP was seen through, it then became obvious that THIS had been the only actor on the stage all along. Tenka mentioned having had CC's prior to whatever happened, during which he was absent, so perhaps some other sort of event was involved? He made have entered some unusual state because somewhere he implies that duration was involved, but I can't remember the details of his description. Perhaps he can explain a bit further. He claims that whatever happened was not a CC and it was not NS, so I'm curious about what kind of event he's pointing to. tenka probably prefers i use those words, rather than 'event', and I am happy to oblige. My own view is that the concept of 'realization' gets argued about too much. Tenka has one view, you another, Enigma another, Satch another.....and personally, I don't care. If T wants to call that 'realization'....fine. If E wants 'seeing through illusions' to be realization....fine. Satch wants direct experience to be realization....fine. If you want 'seeing what IS' to be counted as a realization....fine. I have some kind of reference for all those, so just don't have great interest in which one is the RIGHT one. Everyone's spirituality is unique (look at Tolle and UG!). At most I would say we can agree on certain generalizations about the nature of spiritual evolution. There are certain ideas that we can agree on, as long as we don't get too specific (though it's fun and interesting to talk about specifics.) 'Peace' is a good example. We all know it's a good thing and relates to spiritual evolution. But we can debate for a year as to whether it is a presence or absence  I know Tenka has had a ton of spiritual insights, experiences and 'realizations' before this 'event'. I used to talk a lot to him before it happened. So conversationally, I've witnessed a change in his expression, understanding and focus of interest, though that somewhat ineffable quality of 'tenkaness personality' is the same. In a good way. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 14, 2020 13:58:16 GMT -5
Okay in my view the difference between sleeping and awake state is that the level of mindfulness has changed. In deep sleep, mind is still present and regulating the body, but there is very low level of mindfulness. A plant has a relatively low level of mindfulness. As adult humans we have high level of mindfulness, but the reason that the 'clouds obscure the sun' isn't because of our high level, it's because of our false beliefs. Our false beliefs provide the cloud cover. I think I am in agreement with you that awareness in its purest form (for me, that would be without body, for you that would be in realization state) is unaware of itself. I understand what you're attempting to say about Tenka's viewpoint, but what would a "realization state" be? Like Satch, I know what the state of pure awareness is (NS) and the fact that awareness can be aware of itself as awareness in the absence of any self reference (I am), but I have no reference for the idea of a realization state. A realization is not a state; it's an event--a sudden seeing of something that is undeniably evident. This is why I still don't understand exactly what happened to Tenka. A conclusion after the fact is a kind of realization, but what happened prior to that that made him conclude what he concluded? In my case, this body/mind organism had already apprehended the Infinite (actually THIS apprehended Itself because there truly was no I am--in any ordinary sense-- involved in that kind of seeing), so after the illusion of the SVP was seen through, it then became obvious that THIS had been the only actor on the stage all along. Tenka mentioned having had CC's prior to whatever happened that causes him to say he was absent, so perhaps some other sort of event was involved? He may have entered some unusual state because somewhere he implies that duration was involved, but I can't remember the details of his description. Perhaps he can explain a bit further. He claims that whatever happened was not a CC and it was not NS, so I'm curious about what kind of event he's pointing to. Might be a good place to toss in these words by Nisargadatta from I Am That: "The Guru comes and turns your attention to the spark within. By its very nature the mind is outward turned; it always tends to seek for the source of things among the things themselves; to be told to look for the source within, is, in a way, the beginning of a new life. Awareness takes the place of consciousness; in consciousness there is the 'I', who is conscious while awareness is undivided; awareness is aware of itself. The 'I am' is a thought, while awareness is not a thought, there is no 'I am aware' in awareness. Consciousness is an attribute while awareness is not; one can be aware of being conscious, but not conscious of awareness. God is the totality of consciousness, but awareness is beyond all -- being as well as not-being." |
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Post by laughter on Jan 14, 2020 23:44:12 GMT -5
In normal activity the I Am sense regardless of whether it is attached to a thought such as I am happy, I am hungry, is mixed together with the real unbounded I which is pure awareness. The sense of I am is not pure awareness. In nirvikalpa samadhi there is no sense of I am. But awareness does not need the I Am sense to know that it is. Yet the I Am sense preceded it and it will also proceed it. Awareness is the ultimate subject which knows itself. It doesn't require mind to know that it is. Agreed. Not speaking to NS here. But yet, there is a possibility of gnosis as to the impersonality of being. Pursuing mental quiescence, either sitting silently, and, in action while walking and talking, with this gnosis, brings the potential for clarity as to the nature of awareness. This is the answer to self-inquiry, and leads to a radically different gnosis as to "I", and that "I", always .. is. |
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Post by tenka on Jan 15, 2020 2:39:49 GMT -5
So when there is no pop had what has a blood cell got to do with 'andy' as part of a team? What is the relationship had between the blood cell and 'no thought of andy'? A pop is a point of perception? In this context a blood cell would be a point of perception until the body dies, and then the point of perception would either come to an end, or continue in another form (I would say the latter). I dont understand the second question. Yes a pop is a point of perception ... so the blood cell would be a point of perception for the blood cell itself or for the missing andy? This is what the 2nd question relates to because if the pop is not present in regards to 'andy' and the blood cells are team players, then what has the blood cell have to do with the absent pop of andy? .. |
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Post by tenka on Jan 15, 2020 2:44:18 GMT -5
Yes the sun is always present but when you are asleep what do you know of it? What do you remember of it? There is a time that has passed where it is for most blank where there is not the awareness of I AM aware . When I spoke about the sun initially I spoke about the sun in totality in all it's glory, the love, the joy, the power, the peace as descriptors, but when you are asleep or when you faint is there the totality of what you are present like as i have described? The answer is no, because the sleep and the fainting is all mindful, the clouds obscure the totality of the sun in these instances don't they . This is key to what I am saying and have been saying all along . Okay in my view the difference between sleeping and awake state is that the level of mindfulness has changed. In deep sleep, mind is still present and regulating the body, but there is very low level of mindfulness. A plant has a relatively low level of mindfulness. As adult humans we have high level of mindfulness, but the reason that the 'clouds obscure the sun' isn't because of our high level, it's because of our false beliefs. Our false beliefs provide the cloud cover. I think I am in agreement with you that awareness in its purest form (for me, that would be without body, for you that would be in realization state) is unaware of itself. So when you have an ordinary sleep and the sun is present (as it always is), do you remember or know of the Sun in totality or not? Do you have the awareness of I AM once awakened from a nights sleep to then know that while you were asleep you had Self realized? This is how you can tell the difference between mindful states of sleep and fainting and what you are beyond mind / S.R . I can buy into false beliefs that in some way obscure the totality of the sun for sure, but I am sure each night when a babe sleeps they don't have beyond mind / Self realizations / comparisons had, they visit the spirit world like most of us do .. or have other places to go and be .. This is really opening up to the conditions for S.R. isn't it in some respect .. It could be argued from one side of the fence that Tolle entertained false beliefs in regards to there being a someone to hate and be hated .. It didn't seem to stop him from having a realization did it . This opens up a can of worms .. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 3:48:59 GMT -5
Okay in my view the difference between sleeping and awake state is that the level of mindfulness has changed. In deep sleep, mind is still present and regulating the body, but there is very low level of mindfulness. A plant has a relatively low level of mindfulness. As adult humans we have high level of mindfulness, but the reason that the 'clouds obscure the sun' isn't because of our high level, it's because of our false beliefs. Our false beliefs provide the cloud cover. I think I am in agreement with you that awareness in its purest form (for me, that would be without body, for you that would be in realization state) is unaware of itself. So when you have an ordinary sleep and the sun is present (as it always is), do you remember or know of the Sun in totality or not? Do you have the awareness of I AM once awakened from a nights sleep to then know that while you were asleep you had Self realized? This is how you can tell the difference between mindful states of sleep and fainting and what you are beyond mind / S.R . I can buy into false beliefs that in some way obscure the totality of the sun for sure, but I am sure each night when a babe sleeps they don't have beyond mind / Self realizations / comparisons had, they visit the spirit world like most of us do .. or have other places to go and be ..
This is really opening up to the conditions for S.R. isn't it in some respect .. It could be argued from one side of the fence that Tolle entertained false beliefs in regards to there being a someone to hate and be hated .. It didn't seem to stop him from having a realization did it . This opens up a can of worms .. Those that have realised that Self is all there is don't 'visit the spirit world' anymore. It comes to them. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 8:44:55 GMT -5
Do you know the answer to this question? Yes, of course. Can you PM me if you don't want to expose the answer? I am interested to know the answer. I tried to solve it but I couldn't. But I am sure I have heard the same story while I was studying in school but forgotten the answer. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 15, 2020 10:34:39 GMT -5
Can you PM me if you don't want to expose the answer? I am interested to know the answer. I tried to solve it but I couldn't. But I am sure I have heard the same story while I was studying in school but forgotten the answer. You know he cannot leave the sheep alone with the wolf, because the wolf will eat the sheep. You know he cannot leave the sheep alone with the cabbage because the sheep will eat the cabbage. But he can leave the wolf with the cabbage because the wolf will not eat the cabbage. Gopal, master of logic, can figure this out. Make extra effort, you can figure it out. (If anybody else gets it, don't spoil it for Gopal). |
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Post by enigma on Jan 15, 2020 10:39:56 GMT -5
Eggzakly? You mean an after the fact difference between two states of mind? Yes, I believe that's what happened. A comparison had between self and no self, mind and no mind, I AM and no I AM, this is not referring to two mind states . Where have I suggested two mind states being compared with or too?Like said, peeps need the comparison of self and no self, mind and no mind, I AM and no I AM otherwise all they are doing is bouncing different self reflections off each other . You agreed with ZD who called them states. All states are mind states. |
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Post by satchitananda on Jan 15, 2020 11:00:37 GMT -5
A comparison had between self and no self, mind and no mind, I AM and no I AM, this is not referring to two mind states . Where have I suggested two mind states being compared with or too?Like said, peeps need the comparison of self and no self, mind and no mind, I AM and no I AM otherwise all they are doing is bouncing different self reflections off each other . You agreed with ZD who called them states. All states are mind states. What do you call a state that isn't a mind state? |
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