|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 13, 2020 13:39:54 GMT -5
Nobody is saying this, or this. Awareness is ~recognized~, but there is no *person* who recognizes, until after the fact. This has been pretty clearly stated. That's not true which is why you don't know sahaja samadhi as you claim to because in SS which is SR there is no difference between person and awareness. The discussion was about NS, not SS. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 13, 2020 13:48:02 GMT -5
No. In my case the discovery that awareness is fundamental came from a realization not directly associated with NS. It may have triggered that realization, but the realization did not occur as a direct result of NS. When I talk about the empty awareness of NS, there is nothing known about anything, much less boundaries. The boundarylessness of THIS, or Self, or Source, comes from a particular realization. And you were also able to say that mind was absent, so at that point, did you consider that this 'pure awareness' was perhaps being generated by the body (given that you had yet to realize that awareness was fundamental/without boundary)? Im curious as to what you thought that pure awareness was, given the absence of a realization...? Given that Tenka knew afterwards that there 'is only what you are', it sounds like your minds were informed a bit differently after the event. NS there is *knowing* it is pure awareness. (If that's incorrect zd please correct me). |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 13, 2020 13:54:31 GMT -5
presumably after the NS you knew that it had been a state of pure awareness....?And you were also able to say that mind was absent, so at that point, did you consider that this 'pure awareness' was perhaps being generated by the body (given that you had yet to realize that awareness was fundamental/without boundary)? Im curious as to what you thought that pure awareness was, given the absence of a realization...? Given that Tenka knew afterwards that there 'is only what you are', it sounds like your minds were informed a bit differently after the event. NS there is *knowing* it is pure awareness. (If that's incorrect zd please correct me). Logically, I would agree that there has to be a very deep and subtle level of knowing, hence why it can be distinguished after from deep sleep, but I guess ZD might disagree (as might Tenka) |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 13, 2020 14:28:48 GMT -5
Also, even though there is no sense of selfhood or self-reference, this doesn't seem to result in seeing thru the false sense of self as happens with satori. I mention this because I see Satch and Tenka having great difficulty understanding any satori related topics that we regularly discuss here. It also doesn't seem to resolve existential questions as CC/kensho and satori do. If that's the case, it's really not worth being called a realization. You are saying exactly what SDP is saying, that there is a false sense of self. How can that be? There is a real sense of self which isn't lost after THE realization which is Self realization. After SR this limited self and ego are in unity with an expanded sense of unboundedness. The infinite doesn't get realized. Awareness doesn't get realized. It is the ego that gets realized and which recognizes that it has the same value as the infinite.Jiva = Atman = Brahman Clearly it is the personal aspect which proclaims, "I am awake" as Buddha did on the road when he was asked by a passing stranger to identify himself. I have never agreed nor will I ever agree with those who say there is no one here to be enlightened. When I read someone say that it is consciousness that is typing I just wince.😀 I'm not interested in satoris because they are insights. They're just spiritual experiences. You might refer to one of them as A realization but one of them or many of them are not THE realization when all dissolves into a spontaneous flow of life in unity, whether it is temporary or permanent. It doesn't matter. satch and zd seem to have very different definitions of Self Realization. zd says Self Realization is the recognition that there isn't a limited self/ego, and never has been, the limited self/ego is illusory. satch is saying something quite different here. I say there is a limited self/ego, that it is the false sense of self. It exists as information in the neural structure (you could say as subconscious brain processing). So, what we truly are (as essence) and this false sense of self is, are mutually exclusive, like the two ends of a see-saw (teeter-totter). When one side goes up the other side must necessarily go down. The ego/limited self/false self cannot be enlightened because it doesn't have the capacity to be enlightened. By analogy this would be like trying to put the entire ocean in a thimble. What can shift is one's sense of identity. Let's say the sense of identity is what has the most ~weight~, IOW, the down side of the see-saw. When one considers oneself to be (identity) the limited self/ego, that side of the see-saw is down, one is identified with that. And this is why the limited self/ego cannot become enlightened, this would be like both sides of the see-saw being down, simultaneously. What is lost in SR is not the functionality of the limited self/ego, but the ability to be identified with the limited self/ego, that is, to consider oneself to be the limited self/ego. sdp, satch and zd seem to have different ideas concerning what that means. But if this post is understood (the sense of identity is what can shift), then I think there can be some agreement and understanding. One can ~wear~ the limited self/ego as functionality in-the-world, without considering-themselves- to-be the limited self/ego. {Just to be clear on my POV, for me, essence is one's true sense of individuality. The limited self/ego is a false sense of individuality}. That's why sdp is not SR and will never be SR. |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 13, 2020 14:29:55 GMT -5
During NS there is *knowing* it is pure awareness. (If that's incorrect zd please correct me). Logically, I would agree that there has to be a very deep and subtle level of knowing, hence why it can be distinguished after from deep sleep, but I guess ZD might disagree (as might Tenka) I think zd can easily clear this up. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jan 13, 2020 14:32:21 GMT -5
It was an after thought as said .. I didn't recollect that sense at all .. It was simply a thought that came once I AM returned . I mean WW3 could of happened while I AM was absent and it wouldn't of mattered would it .. I can however only imply that once returned . There is only the thought post realization, so how can there be anything to recollect? There is only the now thought, so if there was no thought, there cannot be anything to recollect .. yep, I totally get that it is an after thought. And the WW3 thing. But somehow you know it wasn't a deep sleep. You also know you didn't faint. You also know you weren't knocked out unconscious. So it seems to me that there must be something very very subtle and very intuitive that you recall about the state. Which makes me think that 'I am' was present, but in deep hibernation. If it had totally gone, perhaps body death would have occurred. Instead your blood kept pumping etc So, as the realization/state ended, I reckon 'I am' came out of hibernation (it returned from the a deep level of the unconscious mind), and you became mindful. To me, it doesn't even have to be very subtle and complicated. Absolutely any wacky experience can happen, including the experience that there is no experiencer, no sense of existence, etc. That's the nature of dreams. That's not to imply there's no greater truth behind it as it may well be an experiential expression of a greater truth not quite realized, but it is not the truth itself. Problems begin when mind tries to interpret and conclude something true about a dream. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jan 13, 2020 14:37:54 GMT -5
Then you were not absent, which is actually my point. Nice try 😀 Mr Self, or Mr Pure Awareness, doesn't know anything about what is happening when mind is not present. Only mind does. It's all you, but that doesn't mean every aspect of you gets the memo. |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jan 13, 2020 14:41:55 GMT -5
Yes. The subconscious self-referential sense must continue even in deep samadhi because afterwards there is a memory of the pure thoughtless perceptionless state of awareness that existed when there was only awareness without content. IOW it's not a mindless state; is a psychological state of empty awareness. Yes. The irony is that is was Tenka who made this so annoyingly clear.  |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 13, 2020 14:45:50 GMT -5
Mr Self, or Mr Pure Awareness, doesn't know anything about what is happening when mind is not present. Only mind does. It's all you, but that doesn't mean every aspect of you gets the memo. Yes. Scoop up a thimble full of the ocean. The thimble full cannot know the (whole) ocean, but the ocean can know the thimble full. It's a matter of capacity (to comprehend/experience). |
|
|
|
Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 13, 2020 14:51:27 GMT -5
Yes. The subconscious self-referential sense must continue even in deep samadhi because afterwards there is a memory of the pure thoughtless perceptionless state of awareness that existed when there was only awareness without content. IOW it's not a mindless state; is a psychological state of empty awareness. Yes. The irony is that is was Tenka who made this so annoyingly clear. I think one might could possibly say it's the thimble-full-of-ocean's capacity to comprehend the ocean. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 13, 2020 15:13:58 GMT -5
yep, I totally get that it is an after thought. And the WW3 thing. But somehow you know it wasn't a deep sleep. You also know you didn't faint. You also know you weren't knocked out unconscious. So it seems to me that there must be something very very subtle and very intuitive that you recall about the state. Which makes me think that 'I am' was present, but in deep hibernation. If it had totally gone, perhaps body death would have occurred. Instead your blood kept pumping etc So, as the realization/state ended, I reckon 'I am' came out of hibernation (it returned from the a deep level of the unconscious mind), and you became mindful. To me, it doesn't even have to be very subtle and complicated. Absolutely any wacky experience can happen, including the experience that there is no experiencer, no sense of existence, etc. That's the nature of dreams. That's not to imply there's no greater truth behind it as it may well be an experiential expression of a greater truth not quite realized, but it is not the truth itself. Problems begin when mind tries to interpret and conclude something true about a dream. I think you could be using the word 'true/truth' here in a couple of different ways, no offence, but I think that might be one messy exploration too many for me right now! |
|
|
|
Post by enigma on Jan 13, 2020 15:30:03 GMT -5
Yes, of course what you are is always present. What is missing is the I AM that makes it possible for you to know that the I AM was absent. Yes the I AM was missing . The I AM however is not missing when you know that I AM was missing based upon the comparison had . You know that you had been asleep the moment you have woken up . You are not asleep at the moment you know you are asleep are you because you would have to be awake ..Your mixing it all up in a way that brings you confusion . So in lucid dreams I'm actually awake?  Your sleep analogy adds unnecessary confusion. It's not an example of no mind/no I AM, unless you talk about dreamless sleep, about which you know nothing at all because of exactly what you're talking about; no mind/no I AM. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 15:54:14 GMT -5
No. In my case the discovery that awareness is fundamental came from a realization not directly associated with NS. It may have triggered that realization, but the realization did not occur as a direct result of NS. When I talk about the empty awareness of NS, there is nothing known about anything, much less boundaries. The boundarylessness of THIS, or Self, or Source, comes from a particular realization. presumably after the NS you knew that it had been a state of pure awareness....? And you were also able to say that mind was absent, so at that point, did you consider that this 'pure awareness' was perhaps being generated by the body (given that you had yet to realize that awareness was fundamental/without boundary)? Im curious as to what you thought that pure awareness was, given the absence of a realization...? Given that Tenka knew afterwards that there 'is only what you are', it sounds like your minds were informed a bit differently after the event. That's an excellent question. The first time that I exited the state of NS I had no idea what had just happened. I knew that the sense of selfhood, all mind talk, and all perceptions had disappeared for about an hour, and only an empty awareness had been present during that time. I remembered what had preceded entry into that state (a developing sense of unity, the off sensation skin-surface numbness, and the gradual disappearance of everything until, suddenly, at a certain point it felt like I had disappeared into an extraordinary state of emptiness in which only awareness remained. I didn't feel like the body had generated anything. If felt as if I had somehow gotten onto an elevator inside the mind/intellect/whateverwewanttocallit and suddenly plummeted to some extremely deep level. After all mind talk ceased, it felt as if awareness had come to rest on the bottom of a deep ocean. Peace and bliss seemed to be synonymous with that state, but there were no thoughts about anything like that until thoughts re-appeared, and selfhood gradually returned. As I've stated before, it felt a bit like I had been a solid block of ice that slowly melted, and for a few moments everything seemed to move in slow motion. When I turned my head, it felt as if it took several seconds for it to rotate. As I said, I had no idea what had happened. I only knew that everything had disappeared for about an hour yet awareness had remained. I knew that I had somehow entered a deep state of unity, but I didn't know that the term NS refers to that state. I don;t think I associated that term with that state until perhaps a year later while reading a book written by a Zen Master. The following two nights I re-entered that state almost immediately after sitting down and starting to meditate. The second night I think it lasted about 90 minutes and the third night it lasted for two or three hours. It was only on the fourth day that I suddenly had a huge CC experience/event, and that resulted in many different realizations, including the realization that awareness is foundational to everything. During that experience/event I directly saw that awareness is infinite and that awareness is prior to this universe as well as life and death. I lost all fear of death following that event because I saw, directly, that there is no real life and death in the way that those things are usually conceived. IOW, I knew that the Absolute/Infinite and I were One, and that oneness is all there is........I'm on a motel computer that's about to cut me off, so I'll write more in a few. |
|
|
|
Post by andrew on Jan 13, 2020 16:05:01 GMT -5
presumably after the NS you knew that it had been a state of pure awareness....? And you were also able to say that mind was absent, so at that point, did you consider that this 'pure awareness' was perhaps being generated by the body (given that you had yet to realize that awareness was fundamental/without boundary)? Im curious as to what you thought that pure awareness was, given the absence of a realization...? Given that Tenka knew afterwards that there 'is only what you are', it sounds like your minds were informed a bit differently after the event. That's an excellent question. The first time that I exited the state of NS I had no idea what had just happened. I knew that the sense of selfhood, all mind talk, and all perceptions had disappeared for about an hour, and only an empty awareness had been present during that time. I remembered what had preceded entry into that state (a developing sense of unity, the off sensation skin-surface numbness, and the gradual disappearance of everything until, suddenly, at a certain point it felt like I had disappeared into an extraordinary state of emptiness in which only awareness remained. I didn't feel like the body had generated anything. If felt as if I had somehow gotten onto an elevator inside the mind/intellect/whateverwewanttocallit and suddenly plummeted to some extremely deep level. After all mind talk ceased, it felt as if awareness had come to rest on the bottom of a deep ocean. Peace and bliss seemed to be synonymous with that state, but there were no thoughts about anything like that until thoughts re-appeared, and selfhood gradually returned. As I've stated before, it felt a bit like I had been a solid block of ice that slowly melted, and for a few moments everything seemed to move in slow motion. When I turned my head, it felt as if it took several seconds for it to rotate. As I said, I had no idea what had happened. I only knew that everything had disappeared for about an hour yet awareness had remained. I knew that I had somehow entered a deep state of unity, but I didn't know that the term NS refers to that state. I don;t think I associated that term with that state until perhaps a year later while reading a book written by a Zen Master. The following two nights I re-entered that state almost immediately after sitting down and starting to meditate. The second night I think it lasted about 90 minutes and the third night it lasted for two or three hours. It was only on the fourth day that I suddenly had a huge CC experience/event, and that resulted in many different realizations, including the realization that awareness is foundational to everything. During that experience/event I directly saw that awareness is infinite and that awareness is prior to this universe as well as life and death. I lost all fear of death following that event because I saw, directly, that there is no real life and death in the way that those things are usually conceived. IOW, I knew that the Absolute/Infinite and I were One, and that oneness is all there is........I'm on a motel computer that's about to cut me off, so I'll write more in a few. Cool. Thanks. So at that point (afterwards), you knew only awareness had remained. Even that must have been a surprise if you had previously thought the thinking mind was associated with awareness. I guess then there were only 2 possibilities...either the whole body generates awareness, or awareness is infinite. Sounds like you got your answer a couple of days after. |
|
|
|
Post by zendancer on Jan 13, 2020 16:25:08 GMT -5
Continued: I don;t yet know exactly what happened with Tenka, but in my case, there were no realizations that directly resulted from NS except that such a state is possible. It's possible that NS loosened up the mind in some way and led to the CC event on the fourth day. This is speculation on my part, but I've read many accounts of people who've had big CC events following deep samadhi, so there's probably some correlation between NS and subsequent realizations.
What's kind of fascinating is that after the NS and CC, I thought that those things had happened to a "me." From my perspective at that time there were still two--me and the Absolute--, and I then wanted to somehow regain the extraordinary unified and cosmic state of mind that I had experienced via the CC.
During the next 15 years, I had many other realizations, and those realizations answered all of my many other existential questions except the one final question that perplexed me. I had experienced many states of unity-consciousness over those 15 years, but I had never resolved the question of how "I" could become unified with the Absolute permanently. IOW, I was trying to figure out how to get rid of "me" forever. haha! In restrospect this now strikes me as incredibly funny!
Finally, after several days of hiking in the mountains while contemplating this issue, I had an emotional experience of deep gratitude. A few hours later I suddenly realized that the "me" that I had imagined as my identity was entirely fictitious. I looked "inside" and there was no longer an inside. The old sense of selfhood, of being a separate volitional entity at the center of whatever was happening, had totally disappeared. After this discovery, I then realized that there had never been a person with my name. The "little guy in the head" was seen to have been a monumental illusion--a fictional story about someone who had never existed.
A few moments later, after seeing that who I had thought I was had been an illusion, I suddenly realized that the Absolute was all there had ever been, and that there had never been any separation at all except as an idea. That seeing ended this organism's search for the truth because then I understood the big picture, so to speak. Afterwards, various past self-referential thought patterns just fell away, and I knew that this body/mind organism was free. I then realized that what had been searching for the truth all along had never been "me;" it had been THIS, the Infinite, because that's all there is. All of us are THIS manifesting however we're manifesting. That's why I laugh and tell people, the only thingless thing that ever goes to the grocery store is THIS! haha. After 20 years the truth of what's going on still cracks me/THIS up. God has an enormous sense of humor.
In light of everything that's happened, I'm super curious about other people, and what they've existentially discovered. I think I understand much of what Tenka has written about, but many things still remain unclear. I still don't have a clear picture of what happened to him or exactly what he's describing that led to his current understanding. Maybe we'll find out more in the days ahead.
|
|
