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Post by laughter on Dec 28, 2019 23:36:02 GMT -5
"A Christian need only believe in Jesus to be saved; nothing else is required of her." What does believing in Jesus mean? Jesus is an immortal that is bound to humanity through it's dependence on him. So is one just saved from this concept of sinfulness by believing that he can never really die? Fwiw, the way I think of it, belief and faith are antonyms, and Peace, is an absence.
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Post by laughter on Dec 28, 2019 23:50:34 GMT -5
www.amazon.com/LIGHT-MIND-RONALD-H-NASH/dp/0788099175/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1370915219&sr=1-1&keywords=The+Light+of+the+Mind%3A+St.+Augustine%E2%80%99s+Theory+of+KnowledgeOne of the Reviews is interesting.. "The goal of this book is to explain what Augustine meant about how God is a light of truth that illuminates the human mind as a person evolves in various ways. This gets into questions about how people learn. Plato felt that learning is really remembering ideas that the soul heard about in the spirit world. Augie had a different take on this which is learning involves pulling information from a virtual storehouse of knowledge that exists outside of the individual. For me this relates to the three levels of consciousness which are the conscious, subconscious, and super conscious as defined by Western philosophy. I think the ancient Egyptians had further sub divisions of these. The virtual knowledge warehouse that Augie believed in was perhaps his term for the super conscious which knows the plan that fate prepares for a soul before it enters this physical dimension. I guess this is true for Plato also. This is one of the key points of the book and is not easy to understand. The idea of reincarnation is also tied in with this. Plato and eventually Augustine believed in reincarnation. So past life experiences are another source of knowledge that may surface within an individual. There's a clear differentiation between the soul and the physical body in Plato and Augustine's philosophy. Augie got sidetracked with the Manichees cult in his early years. It's hard to imagine that there was ever a time when Augustine was a follower of a materialistic, skeptical belief system. I would say Augustine was often confused in his early years. There's a progression of philosophical thought that started with Plato and continued with Plotinus and then with Augustine. Nash refers to this often and mentions the doctrine of the forms which Plato viewed as his unique contribution to philosophy. According to the legends Plato traveled to Egypt and experienced the Egyptian initiation rites at some level. That knowledge goes back many thousands of years to Atlantis and to other worlds really. This is sort of a strange book due to the deep and philosophical nature of the subject matter. It's hard for me to know how right Augustine was about certain things since I didn't understand all the statements in the book completely. Nash describes Augustine as some sort of philosophical genius. So it sounds like Augustine is held in high regard in philosophical circles by some people." Jeff Marzano Thanks. I've run across Nash before. As I recall he's a Christian philosopher/theologian. I might have to get this book, sounds interesting. (I still *do battle* sometimes with family, several are ministers). I've never read Confessions by Augustine. (Basically because of disgusting original sin). I've read about the battle between Augustine and Pelagius however. Pelagius was a Celtic Christian. Augustine taught that all baby's that die not baptized, go to hell. Pelagius disagreed. So now we call Pelagius a heretic, but he was a hero. Stumbled onto this series a few months ago. In the lecture including Augustine (of Hippo), Freedman explains that some early Christians waited until the end of their lives before they got baptized. He gives this point context by referring back to Constantine, who wasn't technically a Christian, even as he convened the council of Nicea, because he wasn't baptized until his deathbed. The reason for Constantine's delay, and the fashion of others to wait during their lives was because the standards of Christianity were hard to live by, especially for members of the elite. So, the idea of baptizing infants and allowing for sin during the course of one's life that could be forgiven during that life was a sort of practical innovation.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 29, 2019 0:04:17 GMT -5
Thanks. I've run across Nash before. As I recall he's a Christian philosopher/theologian. I might have to get this book, sounds interesting. (I still *do battle* sometimes with family, several are ministers). I've never read Confessions by Augustine. (Basically because of disgusting original sin). I've read about the battle between Augustine and Pelagius however. Pelagius was a Celtic Christian. Augustine taught that all baby's that die not baptized, go to hell. Pelagius disagreed. So now we call Pelagius a heretic, but he was a hero. Yeah I know that that myth is still present in people's thinking. They are just meme's that have lasted for hundreds of years, it's really quite incredible. Yes...well, modern theology figured out a way to trump Augustine. They invented the age of accountability to save dying babies from hell. This is an end around original sin. Gopal probably knows how that works.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 29, 2019 1:06:09 GMT -5
I find it completely disgusting to be honest. In a relative context it's a disgraceful bind on humanity. So the only hope is to switch the context of it, by applying something akin to what Laughter did here.. spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/469248Judaism is older than Christianity so I don't actually see why they need to reject anything that Christianisation did. Though I'll read the link. Well, another way to look at this idea of being born into original sin is that, for any given newborn, eventual onset of the existential illusion of the false sense of limited identity is a foregone conclusion. That, in and of itself, doesn't necessarily have to lead to the mass-scale suffering of a rigidly hierarchical, bigoted and morally unforgiving social structure. That's just the worst of human nature playing out in a sort of clockwork. Ironically, it's the sort of clockwork that the notion of inherited original sin is attempting to describe.Yes.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 29, 2019 1:17:43 GMT -5
I have read what the Bible says in those verses and it looks to me like you are just repeating that. I am just finding the reason as to why death occupies other people other than Adam if it is not original sin. I think the same was written by Paul somewhere but I don't know where because it's been long time ever since I read Bible. We inherit the consequences of Adam's sin, but not his guilt. Physical death is one of the consequences. It's complicated and deep, the full story. Mystical Judaism considers there are four different ways to read and interpret scripture. Peshat, Remez, Drash, Sod paulproblem.faithweb.com/pardes.htm
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 29, 2019 1:27:21 GMT -5
Old Testament is Jewish Bible more or less where God says since you have sinned you would return to the ground from which you have taken. And death occupies all the men , what else is needed to prove about original sin ? Paul finds the same reason in Roman 5:12. If you want to discuss this you need to start a new thread. As this is Gopal stuff I guess we are OK. More tomorrow. I think it's Romans 5. What it says is that we die spiritually because we sin. It doesn't say we sin because we are born spiritually dead (which is Augustine's concept of original sin). It says death spread to all men because all sinned.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 6:03:02 GMT -5
I find it completely disgusting to be honest. In a relative context it's a disgraceful bind on humanity. So the only hope is to switch the context of it, by applying something akin to what Laughter did here.. spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/469248Judaism is older than Christianity so I don't actually see why they need to reject anything that Christianisation did. Though I'll read the link. Well, another way to look at this idea of being born into original sin is that, for any given newborn, eventual onset of the existential illusion of the false sense of limited identity is a foregone conclusion. That, in and of itself, doesn't necessarily have to lead to the mass-scale suffering of a rigidly hierarchical, bigoted and morally unforgiving social structure. That's just the worst of human nature playing out in a sort of clockwork. Ironically, it's the sort of clockwork that the notion of inherited original sin is attempting to describe. I hear your interpretation and welcome it.. though I'm still not able to put such an interpretation into these words. biblehub.com/psalms/51-5.htm
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 6:06:07 GMT -5
Yeah and I imagine many in your country will repeat such a process, so that when they become parents they'll stop perpetuating such nonsense. I'd say maybe 1 in 100. Most Evangelical Christians support Trump. Not a good sign. Indoctrination/programming/conditioning is hard to overcome. I don't want to go down the Trump route too much, that's why didn't I answer this last night. Trump isn't all bad, and if he had the time and the inclination to slice off some of the nonsense in Christianity then his cuts could have a real impact. Though politically it's obviously a risk.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 6:07:50 GMT -5
"A Christian need only believe in Jesus to be saved; nothing else is required of her." What does believing in Jesus mean? Jesus is an immortal that is bound to humanity through it's dependence on him. So is one just saved from this concept of sinfulness by believing that he can never really die? Fwiw, the way I think of it, belief and faith are antonyms, and Peace, is an absence. Ok. So faith in Jeshua is being asked for? To be saved from what? Or is this all just primitive psychology again?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 6:10:15 GMT -5
I am just finding the reason as to why death occupies other people other than Adam if it is not original sin. I think the same was written by Paul somewhere but I don't know where because it's been long time ever since I read Bible. We inherit the consequences of Adam's sin, but not his guilt. Physical death is one of the consequences. It's complicated and deep, the full story. Mystical Judaism considers there are four different ways to read and interpret scripture. Peshat, Remez, Drash, Sod paulproblem.faithweb.com/pardes.htmAre you starting from the premise that Adam existed, or are you recognising that this is all metaphorical and an absorption and an acute selection of the myths in humanity at the time?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 6:10:55 GMT -5
I have read what the Bible says in those verses and it looks to me like you are just repeating that. I am just finding the reason as to why death occupies other people other than Adam if it is not original sin. I think the same was written by Paul somewhere but I don't know where because it's been long time ever since I read Bible. Ok thanks. So to you, is death a punishment?
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 29, 2019 9:53:05 GMT -5
I'd say maybe 1 in 100. Most Evangelical Christians support Trump. Not a good sign. Indoctrination/programming/conditioning is hard to overcome. I don't want to go down the Trump route too much, that's why didn't I answer this last night. Trump isn't all bad, and if he had the time and the inclination to slice off some of the nonsense in Christianity then his cuts could have a real impact. Though politically it's obviously a risk. I don't have a problem with Trump politically, his political stance. But morally and humanly, he is despicable. He gets pleasure from causing other people displeasure. That's a bad defect IMO. And he is killing the climate change battle. I don't bring it up much because Reefs will probably nix the subject. He is embarrassing. Without Republicans holding him, he would implode. I would want Christians not to think his conservative stance is a good trade for accepting his being despicable.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 29, 2019 10:22:48 GMT -5
We inherit the consequences of Adam's sin, but not his guilt. Physical death is one of the consequences. It's complicated and deep, the full story. Mystical Judaism considers there are four different ways to read and interpret scripture. Peshat, Remez, Drash, Sod paulproblem.faithweb.com/pardes.htm Are you starting from the premise that Adam existed, or are you recognising that this is all metaphorical and an absorption and an acute selection of the myths in humanity at the time? For years I figured it had to be mostly metaphorical. Then I came to a way it could have four levels of meaning. I began to wonder why there were two creation stories in Genesis. Then I saw that Genesis 1 could be about the formation of the physical body, through evolution. When the body was ready, we have Genesis 2, God picked a man and a woman and breathed his Spirit into them, the first two actual human beings. If you look at how man had a sudden advancement in intellect, this took place about 50,000 years ago. Whatever occurred, Consciousness precedes consciousness.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 29, 2019 10:36:28 GMT -5
Fwiw, the way I think of it, belief and faith are antonyms, and Peace, is an absence. Ok. So faith in Jeshua is being asked for? To be saved from what? Or is this all just primitive psychology again? The word salvation comes from healing, it means to be made whole. So, when you come to the word salvation, read it: If thou would be made whole... It opens up the meaning.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Dec 29, 2019 10:46:55 GMT -5
Well, another way to look at this idea of being born into original sin is that, for any given newborn, eventual onset of the existential illusion of the false sense of limited identity is a foregone conclusion. That, in and of itself, doesn't necessarily have to lead to the mass-scale suffering of a rigidly hierarchical, bigoted and morally unforgiving social structure. That's just the worst of human nature playing out in a sort of clockwork. Ironically, it's the sort of clockwork that the notion of inherited original sin is attempting to describe. I hear your interpretation and welcome it.. though I'm still not able to put such an interpretation into these words. biblehub.com/psalms/51-5.htmPick the Aramaic and JPS Tanakh translation.
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