The Elusive End

[klaus]

We are all on this board because of a void; an emptiness we sensed in our lives. Some are just beginning, some have been searching for years, but we never quite find what we're looking for, that elusive end, which will fill the void, emptiness.

So our search begins. It may take us to the top of a mountain, only to reveal a deep valley and on the other side an even higher peak which has to be climbed, and it goes on and on.

But one day we stop and look back to the beginning of our search reflecting on what motivated our search, that sense of a void; an emptiness in our lives and realize what we've been searching for is the very thing that motivated our search.

That void, emptiness which can only fill that void and emptiness.

[astenny]

One can generalize, but the generalization only rarely covers everyone.

Sometimes we do feel an emptiness, but that isn't what caused me to begin my spiritual Path. I felt the Divine and had a deep yearning to know and to understand that which I felt. Each valley we come across is yet another wonderful place to explore and learn, and if the next mountain is higher that only means we have that much more to achieve.

Maybe I am the odd one out, but that emptiness tends to get filled for me. Sometimes it takes more to keep it filled, sometimes less.

[zendancer]

There seem to be innumerable reasons why people set out on this path. Klaus felt an emptiness that needed to be filled. Astenny wanted to understand his feeling of the divine. One of my buddies wanted to know God in some tangible way. Another friend remembered his childhood and started searching for a way to return to that world. Some people want to escape what they feel is a painful or meaningless existence. When I started, I didn't even know that I was on a spiritual path. I was just trying to find satisfactory answers to a bunch of existential questions. I thought I was on a scientific-type search. It was only after I had an initial insight experience that the spiritual aspect became obvious.

In the same way, there seems to be a lot of variation concerning the end point of the search or pathway. Some people feel there is no end, whereas others reach a level of understanding or experience that produces contentment and equanimity. There is no end to what can be discovered, but for some people there can be an end to all seeking. Like Astenny, I feel no sense of emptiness or incompleteness; in fact quite the opposite. Life seems so full and so profoundly unified that even thinking about it seems absurd. Infinity shines in every direction with"what is" manifesting perfectly at all times. No coming or going. No being or non-being. Just this. Snow falling outside the window, fingers typing on a computer.

[klaus]

Hi astenny,

What was the condition of your existence before your encounter with the Divine and what were the circumstances of your encounter?

Klaus

[klaus]

Hi zendancer,

While true there are innumerable reasons for starting on the path, the primary motivation is that sense of emptiness that is felt in the gut and thinking beings that we are need reasons-a basis-for starting on the path rather than facing the emptiness we sensed, only to come back to it after the search has been exhausted.

In other words experience that emptiness unconditionally.

As you say there is a lot of variation concerning the end point of the search or pathway, but when one has realised THAT where is there to go. IT is beyond beginning and end.

That is why I titled my post the- The Elusive End.

[zendancer]

Hi Klaus: This is what makes the board so interesting to me! Unlike you, I never felt any emptiness in any way. There was no void to be filled. I was just a logical thinker for whom certain things didn't compute. It was all cerebral in my case because I lived in my head. I suspect that people who experience a felt sense of emptiness are feelers more than thinkers, but we'd have to ask others about this to be sure. Maybe LM can give us his take on this because he is a strong feeler. LM, what started you on this path?

In the same way, when you write about experiencing emptiness unconditionally, it sounds to me almost like something that is stoically endured, whereas my experience of emptiness is a rich joyful kind of fullness. Like, how cool is this? We get to play out these unknown roles in the most incredible drama, never knowing what will happen next!

Even though I would never think of the end as being elusive, I understood your title because of your past posts. What a fantastic and diverse universe this is! My wife and I are always joking that the truth is so much stranger than fiction. Who could imagine such a world?

[Portto]

I can't offer much insight regarding feelings and emptiness.

I used to approach life like a game of chess. I relied heavily on science, and I used to laugh at spirituality and religion.
I'm not completely sure what started me on the spirituality path, but it's probably a mixture of briefly living in an isolated place plus being knocked down by a chain of infinite possibilities.

Briefly put, I was calmly planning my work activities for the next few years, by taking into account what I'm going to do next, and then next, and what I would do in unexpected circumstances, and so on. All of a sudden, my mind stopped - but not because of difficult "calculations." It stopped because of something like: "What is really the point of all this?"
I started laughing and I spent a few days smiling at everyone, but the sense of self did not disappear.

Then I remembered one of my friends used to read some spirituality books while he was depressed. I used to look down at those books, but this time I found them interesting.
Funny thing, my friend got completely over the "spirituality thing", and threw away the books. He doesn't want to hear about them again.
I still like to read about spirituality, but I must admit I forgot almost everything I read in those books.
It seems that the essence of spirituality, of who we are, cannot be stored in memory. You can only live it now, but not remember it.

[souley]

I want to know god - because I feel something is lacking
I want to feel like a child again - because I feel something is lacking
I want to know the answer to existential questions - because I feel something is lacking
I want to be a better person - because I feel something is lacking

I want to get rid of all this terrible pain and suffering - OK that one may be more acute

This illustrates for me what Klaus is pointing to with the emptiness, underlying many reasons for searching!

I must have some quiet now after thinking too much trying to form an answer to this pointlessly interesting question!

[klaus]

Hi everyone,

When I referred to emptimess, void it was not existentail emptiness, void, but the emptiness, void of THAT which IS.
In my experience IT was there at the beginning of my search, but not recognized by me nor experienced unconditionally.

Therefore, that emptiness, void that is sensed at the beginning is the same emptiness, void that is experienced at the end of the search.

I hope this clarifies it a little at least.

I am not a thinker;I have lived my life intuitively. As for being stoic, yes, I am that, but becoming less so knowing that the one who is stoic does not exist, and am experiencing emptiness with awe. wonder and humor and joy.

[zendancer]

Wonderful posts by everyone today!

Porto, I loved your story about the time your mind stopped. Whenever the mind stops, laughter usually bubbles to the surface. As for ZM Seung Sahn's "saving all beings....etc," yes, he meant it in the second sense. If we wake up, the whole universe wakes up with us. If we want world peace, we have to become peaceful ourselves. To save all beings from suffering we have to realize who all of those beings are.

Souley, your post jostled my memory and reminded me that I did suffer some serious existential angst while in college. It arose as a result of thinking about the future. I can remember the exact moment when I entered the funhouse of reflective thought. I was sitting in a paleontological laboratory one afternoon studying foramanifera under a microscope. I sat back and thought, "Is this what I'm going to be doing the rest of my life? Classifying and studying fossils? It was the first time I had ever thought about the future of my life. I had always been a happy-go-luicky camper doing my thing in a zen-like way moment to moment(collecting fossils, star-gazing with telescopes, chasing girls, participating in sports, going to parties, etc), and suddenly I began thinking about the ultimate meaning of everything. LOL. It all went downhill from there. Soon, I was reading Camus and Sartre, and spending all of my time thinking about reality and thinking about the nature of thinking. Like the Buddha, I was struck by what I perceived as the ultimate meaninglessness of everything. My thinking d**n near destroyed all of my enjoyment for a long time. That's when I realized that world fame was a worthless goal. I was going to die, so what good would it do to win a Nobel Prize? What a laugh it is today looking back at that time. Nevertheless, the memory reminded me that I did experience a kind of emptiness that I had forgotten. Now, it all seems like a bad dream.

Klaus, I understand better what you were describing after reading all of these posts today. The same emptiness that seems so bleak from one perspective can be a gift of unspeakable value when it is totally embraced and seen for what it really is. What a blessing! Rumi has a great poem about this, and I'll post it whenever I can find it. Cheers.

[Apsara]

Violin

My head falls to the left
and seeks the warmth
between neck and shoulder
the splendid weight is cradled there
and the person whose shoulder I share
knows me
better than anyone.

For we have travelled as one
though we insisted we were separate
hell bent on one another’s eradication
but couldn’t live without the other
despising our mutual need
and eschewing necessity
praying for the other to die
but living on day to day
everyday....
until it became clear
that we were meant for one another
and surrendered to the other’s existence
real or imagined...mattered not
and we embraced one another
like tip of forefinger
and cusp of the thumb
do, when the energy is right.

My head falls to the left
and when it rests there
I hear a violin
and feel the way one sounds
when Perlman points his bow at my heart
and Vivaldi speaks
of another splendid year
that we will spend together.

[zendancer]

Apsara: Those are fine poems that you posted today. Very fine!

[Apsara]

Thank you, but I have made a very important correction to the Violin poem I posted here. I am going to repost it on the main forum. Just one line is changed, but it is the most important piece of what was trying to be communicated. It will be titled Violin Redux.

[lightmystic]

Well said astenny,

For me, the emptiness is anything but empty, but filled with all kinds of infinite, absolute structures. Fascinating stuff....

That said, it can definitely be experienced as infinite, so of course klaus' experience is completely valid.

For me, especially at first, it did feel predominantly empty, because the Absoluteness of it all was so overwhelming as it came to the forefront.....

I actually talk about that in detail in some of my first posts when the forum was created. Anyone can check it out of they want. It's under "spiritual experiences" at the beginning of the threads on this forum....

Jan 8, 2010 10:52:23 GMT -5 astenny said:

One can generalize, but the generalization only rarely covers everyone.

Sometimes we do feel an emptiness, but that isn't what caused me to begin my spiritual Path. I felt the Divine and had a deep yearning to know and to understand that which I felt. Each valley we come across is yet another wonderful place to explore and learn, and if the next mountain is higher that only means we have that much more to achieve.

Maybe I am the odd one out, but that emptiness tends to get filled for me. Sometimes it takes more to keep it filled, sometimes less.

[lightmystic]

Hey ZD,

What started me on the path was probably deep emotional pain and suffering. There was a lot of suffering and it brought be to spiritually, which claimed to end suffering. It was really a practical approach to look at many different teachers and see what the common theme was between them about Enlightenment and to see a.) if it was real, and b.) if it was actually obtainable. And everything snowballed from there....

It kind of culminated in a point where I admitted to myself that, if things didn't get any better than they were, that I was just going to kill myself. But, being the practical guy that I am, I decided that, having nothing to lose at that point, I should look into possibilities what may be able to make life better. After I realized that psychological counseling was clearly inadequate, spirituality was the next thing to look into deeply, as it seemed to hold the promise of release from that suffering....

I had always recognized that there was more to life that was immediately apparent on the surface, but Enlightenment is a whole other ball of wax and I think I recognized that even back then, although it was on a very subtle intuitive level. I doubt I could have explained it that way then because I didn't really get it or have the recognition. But, as a seeker, there is always that knowing in the back of one's Being I think. That's how the seeker knows there's something to seek....

Jan 8, 2010 23:34:15 GMT -5 zendancer said:

Hi Klaus: This is what makes the board so interesting to me! Unlike you, I never felt any emptiness in any way. There was no void to be filled. I was just a logical thinker for whom certain things didn't compute. It was all cerebral in my case because I lived in my head. I suspect that people who experience a felt sense of emptiness are feelers more than thinkers, but we'd have to ask others about this to be sure. Maybe LM can give us his take on this because he is a strong feeler. LM, what started you on this path?

In the same way, when you write about experiencing emptiness unconditionally, it sounds to me almost like something that is stoically endured, whereas my experience of emptiness is a rich joyful kind of fullness. Like, how cool is this? We get to play out these unknown roles in the most incredible drama, never knowing what will happen next!

Even though I would never think of the end as being elusive, I understood your title because of your past posts. What a fantastic and diverse universe this is! My wife and I are always joking that the truth is so much stranger than fiction. Who could imagine such a world?