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Post by zendancer on Jul 16, 2019 19:05:59 GMT -5
I think most posters on the forum know that the two issues are not in conflict, but who knows? We can wait and see.  Depends what you mean by 'two issues'. I don't see any conflict between a basic interest in environmental science and a realization that "there is no absolute/certain knowing how THIS will unfold/unlimited possibility," but I do see a conflict between an absolute certain knowing how things are going to unfold environmentally and the realization that it cannot be known.
As I said, you sound pretty certain about where things are going regarding the world/environment, (?) but then on the other hand....hold strong that in terms of arising feeling/behavior, such as anger/blame/lashing out, you just never know how THIS will manifest. From where I stand, it's the other way around; In SR, you CAN know that anger/blame and lashing out in that regard will not arise, because those feelings/behaviors hinge upon the presence of the delusions that get seen through in SR, whereas, things like unfolding weather patterns are of the ilk of infinite potential/possibility.
Blameful anger and delusion go hand in hand. Blameful anger requires the illusion of separation. If SR is the case, separation is no longer in play. Thus, we can say that if there is SR, there will not/cannot be blameful anger.
Wait and see. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 10:20:36 GMT -5
Depends what you mean by 'two issues'. I don't see any conflict between a basic interest in environmental science and a realization that "there is no absolute/certain knowing how THIS will unfold/unlimited possibility," but I do see a conflict between an absolute certain knowing how things are going to unfold environmentally and the realization that it cannot be known.
As I said, you sound pretty certain about where things are going regarding the world/environment, (?) but then on the other hand....hold strong that in terms of arising feeling/behavior, such as anger/blame/lashing out, you just never know how THIS will manifest. From where I stand, it's the other way around; In SR, you CAN know that anger/blame and lashing out in that regard will not arise, because those feelings/behaviors hinge upon the presence of the delusions that get seen through in SR, whereas, things like unfolding weather patterns are of the ilk of infinite potential/possibility.
Blameful anger and delusion go hand in hand. Blameful anger requires the illusion of separation. If SR is the case, separation is no longer in play. Thus, we can say that if there is SR, there will not/cannot be blameful anger.
Wait and see. Wait and see what, exactly? I wasn't asking what other posters here think. I was asking you. You are the one who seems fully resolved in expectation regarding environmental unfoldings, while also holding the position that how THIS will unfold, cannot be known. It's really the 'depth' to which you seem to have bought into the future environmental picture that I am asking about. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 17, 2019 11:19:51 GMT -5
Wait and see what, exactly? I wasn't asking what other posters here think. I was asking you. You are the one who seems fully resolved in expectation regarding environmental unfoldings, while also holding the position that how THIS will unfold, cannot be known. It's really the 'depth' to which you seem to have bought into the future environmental picture that I am asking about. Read Laughter's earlier post on the other thread. We're always talking about probabilities. Nothing is certain until it happens. Is there a high probability that humans are threatening all life on the planet by pumping out billions of tons of CO2 and raising global temps at an accelerating rate? Yes. Is that definitely going to happen? Who knows, but if i owned a home on the coast of Florida, I'd be thinking about moving to higher ground. I suggest that people read about the issue and decide for themselves the most prudent course of action. I hope that there are unknown feedback loops that might mitigate the effects of what's currently happening, but so far all of the scientific evidence is pointing in the other direction. Hey, if earth ends up like Venus with a surface temp of 800 degrees smothered in CO2 with an atmospheric pressure 92 times greater than earth (due to the density of the CO2), and the current extinction event is the final act leading to that fate, that will just be what THIS does. Who we are will still be here, but not in these particular forms.  |
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Post by andrew on Jul 17, 2019 13:10:58 GMT -5
Wait and see what, exactly? I wasn't asking what other posters here think. I was asking you. You are the one who seems fully resolved in expectation regarding environmental unfoldings, while also holding the position that how THIS will unfold, cannot be known. It's really the 'depth' to which you seem to have bought into the future environmental picture that I am asking about. Read Laughter's earlier post on the other thread. We're always talking about probabilities. Nothing is certain until it happens. Is there a high probability that humans are threatening all life on the planet by pumping out billions of tons of CO2 and raising global temps at an accelerating rate? Yes. Is that definitely going to happen? Who knows, but if i owned a home on the coast of Florida, I'd be thinking about moving to higher ground. I suggest that people read about the issue and decide for themselves the most prudent course of action. I hope that there are unknown feedback loops that might mitigate the effects of what's currently happening, but so far all of the scientific evidence is pointing in the other direction. Hey, if earth ends up like Venus with a surface temp of 800 degrees smothered in CO2 with an atmospheric pressure 92 times greater than earth (due to the density of the CO2), and the current extinction event is the final act leading to that fate, that will just be what THIS does. Who we are will still be here, but not in these particular forms. Yes, 'probabilities' is the key word. I don't tend to talk about stuff that's even a few years down the line because I don't have a clear sense of the probabilities. But if I did talk about it, it would be because I am seeing a probability. I can't even speculate on whether Britain will leave the EU in a few months. I just don't know. I think it's probable that Boris Johnson will be our next pm (though I could be wrong). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 13:45:16 GMT -5
Wait and see what, exactly? I wasn't asking what other posters here think. I was asking you. You are the one who seems fully resolved in expectation regarding environmental unfoldings, while also holding the position that how THIS will unfold, cannot be known. It's really the 'depth' to which you seem to have bought into the future environmental picture that I am asking about. Read Laughter's earlier post on the other thread. We're always talking about probabilities. Nothing is certain until it happens. Is there a high probability that humans are threatening all life on the planet by pumping out billions of tons of CO2 and raising global temps at an accelerating rate? Yes. Is that definitely going to happen? Who knows, but if i owned a home on the coast of Florida, I'd be thinking about moving to higher ground. I suggest that people read about the issue and decide for themselves the most prudent course of action. I hope that there are unknown feedback loops that might mitigate the effects of what's currently happening, but so far all of the scientific evidence is pointing in the other direction. Hey, if earth ends up like Venus with a surface temp of 800 degrees smothered in CO2 with an atmospheric pressure 92 times greater than earth (due to the density of the CO2), and the current extinction event is the final act leading to that fate, that will just be what THIS does. Who we are will still be here, but not in these particular forms. You're still focusing from within the story and I'm asking you to speak from/see beyond. What I'm asking is; does the realization that 'how THIS will manifest cannot be predicted' have any actual impact upon experience, upon how deeply you buy into the scientific 'stories' surrounding environmental changes? Important to see....The idea of 'probability' also lies within the story.
The world and all it's conditions, all scientific facts, all probabilities, are but present moment, ideas, ephemeral arisings within/to that which is unchanging and neither the arising world nor it's conditions actually adheres to any of mind's conceived 'laws, scientific facts, probabilities, expectations,' and any and all cause/effect you think you see, is 'in the story only.'
The world in actuality, arises anew each moment. Realizing that has a dramatic impact in terms of how 'the world' is experienced.
While SR doesn't mean all engagement with the story ceases, it does mean there is a limit in terms of the depth we are pulled into the story. The 'environmental story' seems to have captured attention so deeply that it's obscured the Truth that: how THIS will manifest cannot be predicted.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2019 13:51:44 GMT -5
If you are lazily drifting down a river and don't know you are nearing a waterfall, you reach a point where if you got out of the raft and swam as hard as you could, you could not escape going over the falls. Likewise around a black hole this same point is called the event horizon.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jul 17, 2019 14:02:15 GMT -5
Read Laughter's earlier post on the other thread. We're always talking about probabilities. Nothing is certain until it happens. Is there a high probability that humans are threatening all life on the planet by pumping out billions of tons of CO2 and raising global temps at an accelerating rate? Yes. Is that definitely going to happen? Who knows, but if i owned a home on the coast of Florida, I'd be thinking about moving to higher ground. I suggest that people read about the issue and decide for themselves the most prudent course of action. I hope that there are unknown feedback loops that might mitigate the effects of what's currently happening, but so far all of the scientific evidence is pointing in the other direction. Hey, if earth ends up like Venus with a surface temp of 800 degrees smothered in CO2 with an atmospheric pressure 92 times greater than earth (due to the density of the CO2), and the current extinction event is the final act leading to that fate, that will just be what THIS does. Who we are will still be here, but not in these particular forms. You're still focusing from within the story and I'm asking you to speak from/see beyond. What I'm asking is; does the realization that 'how THIS will manifest cannot be predicted' have any actual impact upon experience, upon how deeply you buy into the scientific 'stories' surrounding environmental changes? Important to see....The idea of 'probability' also lies within the story.
The world and all it's conditions, all scientific facts, all probabilities, are but present moment, ideas, ephemeral arisings within/to that which is unchanging and neither the arising world nor it's conditions actually adheres to any of mind's conceived 'laws, scientific facts, probabilities, expectations,' and any and all cause/effect you think you see, is 'in the story only.'
The world in actuality, arises anew each moment. Realizing that has a dramatic impact in terms of how 'the world' is experienced.
While SR doesn't mean all engagement with the story ceases, it does mean there is a limit in terms of the depth we are pulled into the story. The 'environmental story' seems to have captured attention so deeply that it's obscured the Truth that: how THIS will manifest cannot be predicted.
For zd that's exactly what it means. This is the very point I try to keep pressing zd on, but he always comes back, no SVP here, the mind-brain-body zd is merely What Is manifesting. Does zd go over to the job to hang sheetrock? No, the universe manifesting as zd goes down to hang sheetrock. But maintaining this always and everywhere must be a fabrication. Maintaining this is a conceptual fabrication. Even The Dalai Lama does not live the way zd says he (zd) lives. |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 17, 2019 14:03:01 GMT -5
Read Laughter's earlier post on the other thread. We're always talking about probabilities. Nothing is certain until it happens. Is there a high probability that humans are threatening all life on the planet by pumping out billions of tons of CO2 and raising global temps at an accelerating rate? Yes. Is that definitely going to happen? Who knows, but if i owned a home on the coast of Florida, I'd be thinking about moving to higher ground. I suggest that people read about the issue and decide for themselves the most prudent course of action. I hope that there are unknown feedback loops that might mitigate the effects of what's currently happening, but so far all of the scientific evidence is pointing in the other direction. Hey, if earth ends up like Venus with a surface temp of 800 degrees smothered in CO2 with an atmospheric pressure 92 times greater than earth (due to the density of the CO2), and the current extinction event is the final act leading to that fate, that will just be what THIS does. Who we are will still be here, but not in these particular forms. You're still focusing from within the story and I'm asking you to speak from/see beyond. What I'm asking is; does the realization that 'how THIS will manifest cannot be predicted' have any actual impact upon experience, upon how deeply you buy into the scientific 'stories' surrounding environmental changes? Important to see....The idea of 'probability' also lies within the story.
The world and all it's conditions, all scientific facts, all probabilities, are but present moment, ideas, ephemeral arisings within/to that which is unchanging and neither the arising world nor it's conditions actually adheres to any of mind's conceived 'laws, scientific facts, probabilities, expectations,' and any and all cause/effect you think you see, is 'in the story only.'
The world in actuality, arises anew each moment. Realizing that has a dramatic impact in terms of how 'the world' is experienced.
While SR doesn't mean all engagement with the story ceases, it does mean there is a limit in terms of the depth we are pulled into the story. The 'environmental story' seems to have captured attention so deeply that it's obscured the Truth that: how THIS will manifest cannot be predicted.
Sure it has an impact. It keeps one loose and open to all possibilities, but it doesn't mean that one ignores what's happening. If, for example, you see a speeding car coming towards you with the driver looking at his iPhone, you don't know for sure that he won't look up at the last minute and swerve away from you, but I suspect that you'll jump back away from the curb just in case he doesn't. This isn't complicated. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 15:36:59 GMT -5
You're still focusing from within the story and I'm asking you to speak from/see beyond. What I'm asking is; does the realization that 'how THIS will manifest cannot be predicted' have any actual impact upon experience, upon how deeply you buy into the scientific 'stories' surrounding environmental changes? Important to see....The idea of 'probability' also lies within the story.
The world and all it's conditions, all scientific facts, all probabilities, are but present moment, ideas, ephemeral arisings within/to that which is unchanging and neither the arising world nor it's conditions actually adheres to any of mind's conceived 'laws, scientific facts, probabilities, expectations,' and any and all cause/effect you think you see, is 'in the story only.'
The world in actuality, arises anew each moment. Realizing that has a dramatic impact in terms of how 'the world' is experienced.
While SR doesn't mean all engagement with the story ceases, it does mean there is a limit in terms of the depth we are pulled into the story. The 'environmental story' seems to have captured attention so deeply that it's obscured the Truth that: how THIS will manifest cannot be predicted.
For zd that's exactly what it means. This is the very point I try to keep pressing zd on, but he always comes back, no SVP here, the mind-brain-body zd is merely What Is manifesting. Does zd go over to the job to hang sheetrock? No, the universe manifesting as zd goes down to hang sheetrock. But maintaining this always and everywhere must be a fabrication. Maintaining this is a conceptual fabrication. Even The Dalai Lama does not live the way zd says he (zd) lives. I'm going to avoid specifically talking about ZD here, but will say that there is indeed an important difference between carting around a conceptual overlay in the back of your mind that you pull out every now and again vs. realization that actually changes the way life is experienced. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2019 15:44:42 GMT -5
You're still focusing from within the story and I'm asking you to speak from/see beyond. What I'm asking is; does the realization that 'how THIS will manifest cannot be predicted' have any actual impact upon experience, upon how deeply you buy into the scientific 'stories' surrounding environmental changes? Important to see....The idea of 'probability' also lies within the story.
The world and all it's conditions, all scientific facts, all probabilities, are but present moment, ideas, ephemeral arisings within/to that which is unchanging and neither the arising world nor it's conditions actually adheres to any of mind's conceived 'laws, scientific facts, probabilities, expectations,' and any and all cause/effect you think you see, is 'in the story only.'
The world in actuality, arises anew each moment. Realizing that has a dramatic impact in terms of how 'the world' is experienced.
While SR doesn't mean all engagement with the story ceases, it does mean there is a limit in terms of the depth we are pulled into the story. The 'environmental story' seems to have captured attention so deeply that it's obscured the Truth that: how THIS will manifest cannot be predicted.
Sure it has an impact. It keeps one loose and open to all possibilities, but it doesn't mean that one ignores what's happening. If, for example, you see a speeding car coming towards you with the driver looking at his iPhone, you don't know for sure that he won't look up at the last minute and swerve away from you, but I suspect that you'll jump back away from the curb just in case he doesn't. This isn't complicated. Of course not. That's what I mean by 'engagement with the story continues.' That said, there is a difference between engaging with what IS presently happening vs. knowing for absolute certain, buying in hook, line and sinker to a future story of doom.
I agree with "keeps one loose and open to possibilities." Would you say when it comes to the future of the earth, you are that way?
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Post by zendancer on Jul 17, 2019 15:50:26 GMT -5
For zd that's exactly what it means. This is the very point I try to keep pressing zd on, but he always comes back, no SVP here, the mind-brain-body zd is merely What Is manifesting. Does zd go over to the job to hang sheetrock? No, the universe manifesting as zd goes down to hang sheetrock. But maintaining this always and everywhere must be a fabrication. Maintaining this is a conceptual fabrication. Even The Dalai Lama does not live the way zd says he (zd) lives. I'm going to avoid specifically talking about ZD here, but will say that there is indeed an important difference between carting around a conceptual overlay in the back of your mind that you pull out every now and again vs. realization that actually changes the way life is experienced. I can wholeheartedly agree with that! |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 17, 2019 16:20:24 GMT -5
Sure it has an impact. It keeps one loose and open to all possibilities, but it doesn't mean that one ignores what's happening. If, for example, you see a speeding car coming towards you with the driver looking at his iPhone, you don't know for sure that he won't look up at the last minute and swerve away from you, but I suspect that you'll jump back away from the curb just in case he doesn't. This isn't complicated. Of course not. That's what I mean by 'engagement with the story continues.' That said, there is a difference between engaging with what IS presently happening vs. knowing for absolute certain, buying in hook, line and sinker to a future story of doom.
I agree with "keeps one loose and open to possibilities." Would you say when it comes to the future of the earth, you are that way?
Absolutely! I have a pretty good idea, based on the evidence, of where we're heading, but there's no way to know for sure. Based on all the books I've read recently, I'd say that there's a 95% chance that we'll be at more than 2 degrees celsius in temp increase and more than 500 ppm CO2 by 2040, and it may be a lot worse than that. So far, almost every projection over the last 50 years has under=estimated the CO2 gain, and the rate of increase is now going parabolic. The documentary "Living the Change" shows what can be done, but the odds of that happening on a widespread basis seem slim. The climate thingy intrigues me for various reasons. For one thing, my degree was in geology, and my primary interest in geology was paleontology from about the age of 9. When I was in college, only one scientist in the department thought that continental drift (what we now call "plate tectonics") was a likely possibility, and I don't remember extinction events (other than the dinosaur extinction) ever being discussed. Fast forward 30 years, and I was shocked to discover that plate tectonics had been totally accepted by the scientific community due to an overwhelming accumulation of evidence that occurred after I left school. I didn't start reading about extinction events until about five years ago, and I was amazed at what had been discovered about those 5 bad boys. The Methodists made the front page of our local newspaper in Nashville this last weekend because, as a denomination, they have agreed that humans have a responsibility to care for the environment and to become active in doing whatever is necessary to protect all forms of life from destruction caused by global warming. The Pope and the Dalai Lama have also spoken out about this. For me it's more of an intellectual scientific challenge. First, what would need to be done in order to balance CO2 emissions with CO2 sequestration, and second, what is the likelihood that humans will do what needs to be done? Right now things look pretty grim, and I'm generally an optimist! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 10:23:59 GMT -5
Of course not. That's what I mean by 'engagement with the story continues.' That said, there is a difference between engaging with what IS presently happening vs. knowing for absolute certain, buying in hook, line and sinker to a future story of doom.
I agree with "keeps one loose and open to possibilities." Would you say when it comes to the future of the earth, you are that way?
Absolutely! I have a pretty good idea, based on the evidence, of where we're heading, but there's no way to know for sure. Based on all the books I've read recently, I'd say that there's a 95% chance that we'll be at more than 2 degrees celsius in temp increase and more than 500 ppm CO2 by 2040, and it may be a lot worse than that. So far, almost every projection over the last 50 years has under=estimated the CO2 gain, and the rate of increase is now going parabolic. The documentary "Living the Change" shows what can be done, but the odds of that happening on a widespread basis seem slim. The climate thingy intrigues me for various reasons. For one thing, my degree was in geology, and my primary interest in geology was paleontology from about the age of 9. When I was in college, only one scientist in the department thought that continental drift (what we now call "plate tectonics") was a likely possibility, and I don't remember extinction events (other than the dinosaur extinction) ever being discussed. Fast forward 30 years, and I was shocked to discover that plate tectonics had been totally accepted by the scientific community due to an overwhelming accumulation of evidence that occurred after I left school. I didn't start reading about extinction events until about five years ago, and I was amazed at what had been discovered about those 5 bad boys. The Methodists made the front page of our local newspaper in Nashville this last weekend because, as a denomination, they have agreed that humans have a responsibility to care for the environment and to become active in doing whatever is necessary to protect all forms of life from destruction caused by global warming. The Pope and the Dalai Lama have also spoken out about this. For me it's more of an intellectual scientific challenge. First, what would need to be done in order to balance CO2 emissions with CO2 sequestration, and second, what is the likelihood that humans will do what needs to be done? Right now things look pretty grim, and I'm generally an optimist! Do you see though, that all of that.... the future conditions of the world/earth, if/when they arise, are not 'actually' caused by CO2 levels, etc..? that CO2 levels are themselves appearances, ephemeral arisings within Being...part and parcel of the dream of life...a facet of the story? CO2, man's behaviors/practices that apparently go hand in hand in with such, ALL of it, just appearances, ephemeral arisings, that are actually not causal to anything else happening in the story?
I keep trying to bring this conversation (an in the story view) into 'the light,' (transcendent view) and it seems you're just not very interested in taking it there.  |
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Post by zendancer on Jul 18, 2019 11:09:30 GMT -5
Absolutely! I have a pretty good idea, based on the evidence, of where we're heading, but there's no way to know for sure. Based on all the books I've read recently, I'd say that there's a 95% chance that we'll be at more than 2 degrees celsius in temp increase and more than 500 ppm CO2 by 2040, and it may be a lot worse than that. So far, almost every projection over the last 50 years has under=estimated the CO2 gain, and the rate of increase is now going parabolic. The documentary "Living the Change" shows what can be done, but the odds of that happening on a widespread basis seem slim. The climate thingy intrigues me for various reasons. For one thing, my degree was in geology, and my primary interest in geology was paleontology from about the age of 9. When I was in college, only one scientist in the department thought that continental drift (what we now call "plate tectonics") was a likely possibility, and I don't remember extinction events (other than the dinosaur extinction) ever being discussed. Fast forward 30 years, and I was shocked to discover that plate tectonics had been totally accepted by the scientific community due to an overwhelming accumulation of evidence that occurred after I left school. I didn't start reading about extinction events until about five years ago, and I was amazed at what had been discovered about those 5 bad boys. The Methodists made the front page of our local newspaper in Nashville this last weekend because, as a denomination, they have agreed that humans have a responsibility to care for the environment and to become active in doing whatever is necessary to protect all forms of life from destruction caused by global warming. The Pope and the Dalai Lama have also spoken out about this. For me it's more of an intellectual scientific challenge. First, what would need to be done in order to balance CO2 emissions with CO2 sequestration, and second, what is the likelihood that humans will do what needs to be done? Right now things look pretty grim, and I'm generally an optimist! Do you see though, that all of that.... the future conditions of the world/earth, if/when they arise, are not 'actually' caused by CO2 levels, etc..? that CO2 levels are themselves appearances, ephemeral arisings within Being...part and parcel of the dream of life...a facet of the story? CO2, man's behaviors/practices that apparently go hand in hand in with such, ALL of it, just appearances, ephemeral arisings, that are actually not causal to anything else happening in the story?
I keep trying to bring this conversation (an in the story view) into 'the light,' (transcendent view) and it seems you're just not very interested in taking it there. Correct. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 11:28:08 GMT -5
Do you see though, that all of that.... the future conditions of the world/earth, if/when they arise, are not 'actually' caused by CO2 levels, etc..? that CO2 levels are themselves appearances, ephemeral arisings within Being...part and parcel of the dream of life...a facet of the story? CO2, man's behaviors/practices that apparently go hand in hand in with such, ALL of it, just appearances, ephemeral arisings, that are actually not causal to anything else happening in the story?
I keep trying to bring this conversation (an in the story view) into 'the light,' (transcendent view) and it seems you're just not very interested in taking it there. Correct. On what part? What I'm saying in the 1st paragraph or the bit about you not being interested in taking the conversation 'into the light'?
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