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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 6, 2024 11:43:07 GMT -5
He says that everything moves as one which means that no individual takes the decision separately or act separately. Correct. I could use other examples besides a hand opening and closing to illustrate two different distinctions and how distinctions obscure the underlying unity,, but fifty years ago Alan Watts used the "fist" example to show how "a verb is masquerading as a noun." It's an example that sometimes triggers a realization of what lies behind the world of nouns.  So if no one takes the decision to act separately then no one has any responsibility, it doesn't matter who lives or dies and it doesn't matter by what means anyone lives or dies. And so that also makes it OK to lie and steal, as there is no actor, the individual is just a pinball. But I would choose to consider "Hitler" a pinball, not Jesus. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2024 11:53:56 GMT -5
Are you familiar with the idea of a "truism" or "unfalsifiable" idea? In my view you can't compare this "LOA", as you've described it, with something like physics. It's apples and oranges. The LOA you've described is more like a truism. It's true because of the structure of the idea, and the way counter-examples are dismissed; it can't be falsified. As you said: if you disprove it, you prove it. In science and most philosophy that is considered a bad thing, not a strong theory. However, in psychology or spirituality, it could still be useful, or a kind of "pointer". Various lines of solipsistic thinking lead to a similar "truism" as you define it, and it's one or more variants of these that underlie the simulation theory. For example, you cannot falsify the proposition that your brain is in a jar in a laboratory being fed all of what you perceive as signals generated artificially. One of the most interesting critiques of the theory I've seen is based in pattern recognition: "Five minutes after invention of the wheel: Everything is an eternal cycle of recurrence" "Five minutes after the invention of the printing press: God, is the word" "Five minutes after the first chat bot inverts the Turing Test": God, is the Singularity" .. there were a few other examples that escape me right now .. Yes, there are many examples of truisms and circular reasoning. One way out of those intellectual circles in one's head, is to talk about your real life examples and stories. That brings it back down to Earth. "What are we really doing?" That's why when I asked before about deliberate creation, I asked for examples from people's lives. |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 6, 2024 12:27:50 GMT -5
Since you chose to go the ad hominem route now instead of offering a solid counter argument, I have to assume that you haven't really thought this thru. So agree to disagree is fine with me. Have a nice day.
Wow, interesting. I've seen that pattern before so I'm not too surprised, but I didn't realize it was so strongly in play here. To me, my post was only a bit of gentle, friendly pointing to some useful and highly relevant small-s self-knowledge. I meant it to be helpful, not an "ad hominem" insult. No one said anything about insults. 'Ad hominem' simply means 'towards the person'. You addressed the person who made the argument, not the actual argument. Which seemed odd, since we don't know each other. I was hoping you would address the message, but you chose to address the messenger. Not sure why. My best guess is that you don't have an actual argument. If so, just say so. No biggie. |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 6, 2024 12:44:09 GMT -5
Reefs, nailed, but he can't help himself.  ......I would be curious Reefs, can you name anyone you respect as having a more-full understanding, deeper realization, of all that is, than yourself? (It can't be Ramana or Niz, as you've explained their deficiencies). Honest question, no pejorative intention. 
I'm pretty sure he actually believes that, and didn't even notice. And it's not that different from how he approaches ZD. He starts with the basic premise "these guys are full of s***" and then he starts asking his 'honest' questions... And then he wonders why no one is playing ball with him and then concludes that the others can't answer his 'honest' questions and are instead playing dodge ball.
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Post by zendancer on Jun 6, 2024 13:03:51 GMT -5
Correct. I could use other examples besides a hand opening and closing to illustrate two different distinctions and how distinctions obscure the underlying unity,, but fifty years ago Alan Watts used the "fist" example to show how "a verb is masquerading as a noun." It's an example that sometimes triggers a realization of what lies behind the world of nouns. So if no one takes the decision to act separately then no one has any responsibility, it doesn't matter who lives or dies and it doesn't matter by what means anyone lives or dies. And so that also makes it OK to lie and steal, as there is no actor, the individual is just a pinball. But I would choose to consider "Hitler" a pinball, not Jesus. This is a common misunderstanding of what ND is pointing to. The point is that who people THINK they are is NOT who/what they are. They may think/imagine that they are SVP's choosing this or that, but the actuality cannot be captured by those thoughts. The thoughts are like a cartoon-cloud of "me"-nonsense obscuring what is actually happening. If the mind goes totally silent, and there is no thought of good or bad or anything else, what does the organism do? If one watches and refrains from jumping to mind-generated conclusions, something important may be realized. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 6, 2024 13:21:33 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure he actually believes that, and didn't even notice. And it's not that different from how he approaches ZD. He starts with the basic premise "these guys are full of s***" and then he starts asking his 'honest' questions... And then he wonders why no one is playing ball with him and then concludes that the others can't answer his 'honest' questions and are instead playing dodge ball.
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 6, 2024 13:40:18 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure he actually believes that, and didn't even notice. And it's not that different from how he approaches ZD. He starts with the basic premise "these guys are full of s***" and then he starts asking his 'honest' questions... And then he wonders why no one is playing ball with him and then concludes that the others can't answer his 'honest' questions and are instead playing dodge ball.
I'm just a nuts & bolts guy, a pragmatist. I'd say it's quite telling, sharon's posting the new Jeff Foster video. He just spoke from experience, he said he had spent personal time with numerous nondual teachers, time apart from the stage. He said every one, no exceptions, do not live what they preach. So he said he just stopped being a ND teacher. He's either advancing or reverting. Seems the video touched a raw nerve here. I don't look down on anybody, I think most everyone is doing the best they can. People get stuck, and don't see they're stuck. A nondual realization is fine, CC is fine. But they are an invitation to explore the territory, swim in it. There is no end to those possibilities. Some people live on the cutting edge of that exploration. I'd put lolly there, zazeniac, sharon plays her cards very tight. someNOTHING seems to have a foot in both worlds. andrew is very honest, no guile. Some freely admit that's just not where they're at, exploring, the exploration is done. I try to stay out of the accusing business, I've been stuck before. But Zen sickness seems to apply, sometimes. It just hit me in the midst of writing, I didn't recall Reefs ever recommending anyone as his unqualified top go-to. So I asked. ...Life is a hall of mirrors. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jun 6, 2024 20:12:22 GMT -5
So if no one takes the decision to act separately then no one has any responsibility, it doesn't matter who lives or dies and it doesn't matter by what means anyone lives or dies. And so that also makes it OK to lie and steal, as there is no actor, the individual is just a pinball. But I would choose to consider "Hitler" a pinball, not Jesus. Here's a different take on things. What to Tell Children About God by Alan Watts "God also likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing outside God, He has no one but himself to play with. But He gets over this difficulty by pretending that He is not Himself. This is His way of hiding from Himself. He pretends that He is you and I and all the people in the world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the stars. In this way He has strange and wonderful adventures, some of which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams, for when He wakes up they will disappear. Now when God plays hide and pretends that He is you and I, He does it so well that it takes Him a long time to remember where and how He hid Himself. But that’s the whole fun of it-just what He wanted to do. He doesn’t want to find Himself out too quickly, for that would spoil the game. That is why it is so difficult for you and me to find out that we are God in disguise, pretending not to be Himself. But when the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember that we are all one single Self-the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever. Of course, you must remember that God isn’t shaped like a person. People have skins and there is always something outside our skins. If there weren’t, we wouldn’t know the difference between what is inside and outside our bodies. But God has no skin and no shape because there isn’t any outside to Him. . . . The inside and the outside of God are the same. And though I have been talking about God as ‘He’ and not ’she,’ God isn’t a man or a woman. I didn’t say ‘it’ because we usually say ‘it’ for things that aren’t alive. God is the Self of the world, but you can’t see God for the same reason that, without a mirror, you can’t see your own eyes, and you certainly can’t bite your own teeth or look inside your head. Your self is that cleverly hidden because it is God hiding. You may ask why God sometimes hides in the form of horrible people, or pretends to be people who suffer great disease and pain. Remember, first, that He isn’t really doing this to anyone but Himself. Remember, too, that in almost all the stories you enjoy there have to be bad people as well as good people, for the thrill of the tale is to find out how the good people will get the better of the bad. It’s the same as when we play cards. At the beginning of the game we shuffle them all into a mess, which is like the bad things in the world, but the point of the game is to put the mess into good order, and the one who does it best is the winner. Then we shuffle the cards once more and play again, and so it goes with the world." |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 6, 2024 20:46:15 GMT -5
So if no one takes the decision to act separately then no one has any responsibility, it doesn't matter who lives or dies and it doesn't matter by what means anyone lives or dies. And so that also makes it OK to lie and steal, as there is no actor, the individual is just a pinball. But I would choose to consider "Hitler" a pinball, not Jesus. Here's a different take on things. What to Tell Children About God by Alan Watts "God also likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing outside God, He has no one but himself to play with. But He gets over this difficulty by pretending that He is not Himself. This is His way of hiding from Himself. He pretends that He is you and I and all the people in the world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the stars. In this way He has strange and wonderful adventures, some of which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams, for when He wakes up they will disappear. Now when God plays hide and pretends that He is you and I, He does it so well that it takes Him a long time to remember where and how He hid Himself. But that’s the whole fun of it-just what He wanted to do. He doesn’t want to find Himself out too quickly, for that would spoil the game. That is why it is so difficult for you and me to find out that we are God in disguise, pretending not to be Himself. But when the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember that we are all one single Self-the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever. Of course, you must remember that God isn’t shaped like a person. People have skins and there is always something outside our skins. If there weren’t, we wouldn’t know the difference between what is inside and outside our bodies. But God has no skin and no shape because there isn’t any outside to Him. . . . The inside and the outside of God are the same. And though I have been talking about God as ‘He’ and not ’she,’ God isn’t a man or a woman. I didn’t say ‘it’ because we usually say ‘it’ for things that aren’t alive. God is the Self of the world, but you can’t see God for the same reason that, without a mirror, you can’t see your own eyes, and you certainly can’t bite your own teeth or look inside your head. Your self is that cleverly hidden because it is God hiding. You may ask why God sometimes hides in the form of horrible people, or pretends to be people who suffer great disease and pain. Remember, first, that He isn’t really doing this to anyone but Himself. Remember, too, that in almost all the stories you enjoy there have to be bad people as well as good people, for the thrill of the tale is to find out how the good people will get the better of the bad. It’s the same as when we play cards. At the beginning of the game we shuffle them all into a mess, which is like the bad things in the world, but the point of the game is to put the mess into good order, and the one who does it best is the winner. Then we shuffle the cards once more and play again, and so it goes with the world." I've read Alan Watts for 50 years. Have you read his autobiography? I have, it's around here somewhere. So I've read very similar, if not that specifically. Sounds like it could have come from The Book, on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are, have read that. The Wisdom of Insecurity is his take on J Krishnamurti. But I passed on Watts, although he is an enjoyable read. But thanks. But it is an interesting question, can "God" go to sleep, can "God" put himself to sleep? Kind of like can God make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? I did get to the last paragraph. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2024 0:52:32 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure he actually believes that, and didn't even notice. And it's not that different from how he approaches ZD. He starts with the basic premise "these guys are full of s***" and then he starts asking his 'honest' questions... And then he wonders why no one is playing ball with him and then concludes that the others can't answer his 'honest' questions and are instead playing dodge ball.
I'm just a nuts & bolts guy, a pragmatist. I'd say it's quite telling, sharon's posting the new Jeff Foster video. He just spoke from experience, he said he had spent personal time with numerous nondual teachers, time apart from the stage. He said every one, no exceptions, do not live what they preach. So he said he just stopped being a ND teacher. He's either advancing or reverting. Seems the video touched a raw nerve here. I don't look down on anybody, I think most everyone is doing the best they can. People get stuck, and don't see they're stuck. A nondual realization is fine, CC is fine. But they are an invitation to explore the territory, swim in it. There is no end to those possibilities. Some people live on the cutting edge of that exploration. I'd put lolly there, zazeniac, sharon plays her cards very tight. someNOTHING seems to have a foot in both worlds. andrew is very honest, no guile. Some freely admit that's just not where they're at, exploring, the exploration is done. I try to stay out of the accusing business, I've been stuck before. But Zen sickness seems to apply, sometimes. It just hit me in the midst of writing, I didn't recall Reefs ever recommending anyone as his unqualified top go-to. So I asked. ...Life is a hall of mirrors. I would just ignore nonduality if you think it's BS. Some of what I'm reading here gives nonduality a bad name. Just follow your own path. Or if interested, stick with a classic like I Am That. Jesus said something about not praying in public, or you "have your reward". In modern times that advice might be: don't post about it on forums. Pray/practice in private. There is a competition mind-state here. If people use something sacred to try to one-up others, they "have their reward". Careful. Some people think energy vampires are real things in the astral plane.... maybe. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 7, 2024 2:51:44 GMT -5
Various lines of solipsistic thinking lead to a similar "truism" as you define it, and it's one or more variants of these that underlie the simulation theory. For example, you cannot falsify the proposition that your brain is in a jar in a laboratory being fed all of what you perceive as signals generated artificially. One of the most interesting critiques of the theory I've seen is based in pattern recognition: "Five minutes after invention of the wheel: Everything is an eternal cycle of recurrence" "Five minutes after the invention of the printing press: God, is the word" "Five minutes after the first chat bot inverts the Turing Test": God, is the Singularity" .. there were a few other examples that escape me right now .. Yes, there are many examples of truisms and circular reasoning. One way out of those intellectual circles in one's head, is to talk about your real life examples and stories. That brings it back down to Earth. "What are we really doing?" That's why when I asked before about deliberate creation, I asked for examples from people's lives. Definitely. One of those examples from this life, is an educated conditioning to rely on intellect for all manner of things, like, making a living, for example. As an atheist (later agnostic), I didn't even know I was seeking while I was doing it. The insight that intellect is a limited tool that could bring that seeking only so far was layered, but there was a realization that went sideways to that relative, matter-of-degree. What I found was that, once one stops inquiring with intellect, is when things really start, to become .. interesting. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 7, 2024 7:56:04 GMT -5
I'm just a nuts & bolts guy, a pragmatist. I'd say it's quite telling, sharon's posting the new Jeff Foster video. He just spoke from experience, he said he had spent personal time with numerous nondual teachers, time apart from the stage. He said every one, no exceptions, do not live what they preach. So he said he just stopped being a ND teacher. He's either advancing or reverting. Seems the video touched a raw nerve here. I don't look down on anybody, I think most everyone is doing the best they can. People get stuck, and don't see they're stuck. A nondual realization is fine, CC is fine. But they are an invitation to explore the territory, swim in it. There is no end to those possibilities. Some people live on the cutting edge of that exploration. I'd put lolly there, zazeniac, sharon plays her cards very tight. someNOTHING seems to have a foot in both worlds. andrew is very honest, no guile. Some freely admit that's just not where they're at, exploring, the exploration is done. I try to stay out of the accusing business, I've been stuck before. But Zen sickness seems to apply, sometimes. It just hit me in the midst of writing, I didn't recall Reefs ever recommending anyone as his unqualified top go-to. So I asked. ...Life is a hall of mirrors. I would just ignore nonduality if you think it's BS. Some of what I'm reading here gives nonduality a bad name. Just follow your own path. Or if interested, stick with a classic like I Am That. Jesus said something about not praying in public, or you "have your reward". In modern times that advice might be: don't post about it on forums. Pray/practice in private. There is a competition mind-state here. If people use something sacred to try to one-up others, they "have their reward". Careful. Some people think energy vampires are real things in the astral plane.... maybe. sdp almost likes. I don't consider ND bs. It's a significant discovery, but it's the beginning, not the end. I've called it a little bump in the road. ...Yea, this is a kind of club, here. New people show up, don't usually stay long. But it's good to see new people. |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 7, 2024 8:52:19 GMT -5
I'm just a nuts & bolts guy, a pragmatist. I'd say it's quite telling, sharon's posting the new Jeff Foster video. He just spoke from experience, he said he had spent personal time with numerous nondual teachers, time apart from the stage. He said every one, no exceptions, do not live what they preach. So he said he just stopped being a ND teacher. He's either advancing or reverting. Seems the video touched a raw nerve here. I don't look down on anybody, I think most everyone is doing the best they can. People get stuck, and don't see they're stuck. A nondual realization is fine, CC is fine. But they are an invitation to explore the territory, swim in it. There is no end to those possibilities. Some people live on the cutting edge of that exploration. I'd put lolly there, zazeniac, sharon plays her cards very tight. someNOTHING seems to have a foot in both worlds. andrew is very honest, no guile. Some freely admit that's just not where they're at, exploring, the exploration is done. I try to stay out of the accusing business, I've been stuck before. But Zen sickness seems to apply, sometimes. It just hit me in the midst of writing, I didn't recall Reefs ever recommending anyone as his unqualified top go-to. So I asked. ...Life is a hall of mirrors. I would just ignore nonduality if you think it's BS. Some of what I'm reading here gives nonduality a bad name. Just follow your own path. Or if interested, stick with a classic like I Am That. Jesus said something about not praying in public, or you "have your reward". In modern times that advice might be: don't post about it on forums. Pray/practice in private. There is a competition mind-state here. If people use something sacred to try to one-up others, they "have their reward". Careful. Some people think energy vampires are real things in the astral plane.... maybe. Two questions for you: 1) Do you know a non-comparative/non-competitive spiritual forum? 2) Are you a reincarnation of robertk/robertc? |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 7, 2024 8:54:57 GMT -5
I would just ignore nonduality if you think it's BS. Some of what I'm reading here gives nonduality a bad name. Just follow your own path. Or if interested, stick with a classic like I Am That. Jesus said something about not praying in public, or you "have your reward". In modern times that advice might be: don't post about it on forums. Pray/practice in private. There is a competition mind-state here. If people use something sacred to try to one-up others, they "have their reward". Careful. Some people think energy vampires are real things in the astral plane.... maybe. sdp almost likes. I don't consider ND bs. It's a significant discovery, but it's the beginning, not the end. I've called it a little bump in the road. ...Yea, this is a kind of club, here. New people show up, don't usually stay long. But it's good to see new people. I think he's a returning visitor, one with a history. |
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Post by Reefs on Jun 7, 2024 9:36:20 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure he actually believes that, and didn't even notice. And it's not that different from how he approaches ZD. He starts with the basic premise "these guys are full of s***" and then he starts asking his 'honest' questions... And then he wonders why no one is playing ball with him and then concludes that the others can't answer his 'honest' questions and are instead playing dodge ball.
I'm just a nuts & bolts guy, a pragmatist. I'd say it's quite telling, sharon's posting the new Jeff Foster video. He just spoke from experience, he said he had spent personal time with numerous nondual teachers, time apart from the stage. He said every one, no exceptions, do not live what they preach. So he said he just stopped being a ND teacher. He's either advancing or reverting. Seems the video touched a raw nerve here. I don't look down on anybody, I think most everyone is doing the best they can. People get stuck, and don't see they're stuck. A nondual realization is fine, CC is fine. But they are an invitation to explore the territory, swim in it. There is no end to those possibilities. Some people live on the cutting edge of that exploration. I'd put lolly there, zazeniac, sharon plays her cards very tight. someNOTHING seems to have a foot in both worlds. andrew is very honest, no guile. Some freely admit that's just not where they're at, exploring, the exploration is done. I try to stay out of the accusing business, I've been stuck before. But Zen sickness seems to apply, sometimes. It just hit me in the midst of writing, I didn't recall Reefs ever recommending anyone as his unqualified top go-to. So I asked. ...Life is a hall of mirrors. You are trying too hard to prove your point. And I think it's time you give it a rest. It has become an obsession. And it is not doing your or the forum any good. Do you remember Arisha? You remind me of her.
You also seem to be unable to distinguish between fact (what's actually been written and what is in the archives) and fiction (your favorite pet theory in your own mind). You've become an expert giraffe herder.
Now, let me address some of your giraffes:
First, I regularly recommend books and teachings of other spiritual teachers.
Secondly, I've specifically made it clear that RM's or Niz' shortcomings in the physical human context do not devalue their realization status at all. Thirdly, there are no levels of SR. And SR or what is seen or realized in the event of SR is, has been and always will be the exact same realization for everyone, no matter what epoch, culture, or personal history or personal life circumstances.
Fourthly, you have made it abundantly clear that you have no reference for CC, SR or what non-duality is pointing to. So most of what you say about other people's realization status (or lack thereof) is therefore speculation, and most of the time actually mere projection. Fifthly, can you tell me who RM's or Niz or RK's or Bodhidharma's go-to guy was?
Sixthly, I sense a strong dose of what Nietzsche called "Moralin" in everything you write. He actually called moralism a form of cowardice. Maybe something to contemplate for you.
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......I would be curious Reefs, can you name anyone you respect as having a more-full understanding, deeper realization, of all that is, than yourself? (It can't be Ramana or Niz, as you've explained their deficiencies). Honest question, no pejorative intention. 
