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Post by Reefs on Jun 5, 2024 20:40:13 GMT -5
A lot of assertions there about various things that aren't true in my view, so we can leave it that and agree to disagree on some of that. For what's it's worth, I saw a previous post where you wondered why people argued with you on this topic. I see in your posts here and in the other thread, a number of uses of "domination/competition" language: "superior", "defeat LOA", "higher", "lesser", mere "self help", etc. I'm sensing a comparison/competition paradigm that I'm not sensing from other posters. That's not inherently bad or wrong - perhaps you were a competitive athlete or something. But ironically, it will troll, trigger, and attract people who want to fight with it, so don't be surprised when that happens! Reefs, nailed, but he can't help himself.  ......I would be curious Reefs, can you name anyone you respect as having a more-full understanding, deeper realization, of all that is, than yourself? (It can't be Ramana or Niz, as you've explained their deficiencies). Honest question, no pejorative intention. Not taking the bait. You must have wondered why I haven't replied to your posts since you are back. That's why. You went right back where you left off. Not interested. Burn your strawmen elsewhere. |
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Post by zendancer on Jun 6, 2024 4:46:25 GMT -5
The individual organism is a tiny aspect of the Whole ITSW that a wave is a tiny aspect of the ocean. The wave is a movement of the ocean in the same way that a human is a movement of the Whole. There is no separate volitional entity--no "me"---that ever does anything. If a thought appears, it is the Whole thinking the thought as a human. What is imagined as two is not two. There is no separate "me" circulating blood through the body, regulating hormones, digesting food,, moving nerve impulses or muscles, etc. any more than there is a "me" thinking thoughts, doing ATA-T, or scratching an itch. This can be realized, and after it is realized, life becomes simple and matter of fact. Seeking comes to an end because it's seen (by THIS as a human) that the seeking "me" was an illusion. SR is THIS waking up to ITSELF via what we distinguish and call "a human." There is no "other." Look around. Everything (every thing) that the eyes see is a seamless field of being. We can call that field of being, or living presence, "Source," "Reality," "The Infinite," or "the Whole." Take your pick. OK, I didn't you had changed your view. But this leaves out completely, conditioning. In my view, you have to account for individual conditioning/programming. And this is what accounts for murder, rape, terrorism, genocide, the nasty side of life. Do they occur outside of all that is? No. There are two flows within all that is. One flow accounts for the nastiness (the other flow, you describe). I've never changed my view regarding ND, and this does not leave out conditioning. Humans are culturally conditioned to imagine separateness. This is true for all humans. They think that they are separate volitional entities living in a world of separate things and other separate entities like themselves. They continue to believe this unless they penetrate that illusion. As such, they develop self-centeredness, tribal affiliations, and "negative" personality attributes that are based upon the idea of a "me" with personal needs/desires interacting with "others" who can be used to satisfy those needs/desires. People who wake up detach from those kinds of thoughts and see other people as manifestations of the same unified field of being that they are. This changes their understanding and way of life. In short, Jesus and Hitler were both manifestations of THIS because THIS is all there is. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 6, 2024 6:21:02 GMT -5
I basically agree with all your points. It's a shared reality, actually. After all, you didn't create your world from this physical perspective. So there are certain ground rules that all participants of this shared reality agreed upon. The laws of physics are such rules or agreements. They are not inviolable laws though. And other realities have different rules or agreements. And if we want to stay within the video game analogy, games in the old days usually had cheat codes, that let you change the rules or ignore the rules of the game. But a game without rules isn't a game anymore, and so these rules or limitations actually have an important function, because they make for very unique and exciting gaming (or life) experiences.
That's also why I keep calling LOA a meta law, or the meta law. Some call it the universal law, or the law of creation, because it applies to all reality systems and to the phenomenal world in general. Creation unfolds spontaneously, but not random and also not in a predetermined way, there is an order to the unfolding, and LOA is that idea translated into a universal law. All other laws, like the laws of physics or even the law of karma, only apply under certain conditions, and are therefore lower, lesser laws.
One fun fact about LOA is that disproving it would actually be proving it again.
Simulation theory is essentially solipsism. And solipsism is the inevitable logical conclusion you have to reach when you try to make sense of this world via the intellect. We have some people here who subscribe to that theory. From a purely logical, merely intellectual perspective, that theory is solid. It can't be defeated by logic. However, once it is realized that the ultimate truth is beyond or prior to the intellect, solipsism goes out the window because there is no ultimate basis for it. Also, a lot of what is passed around as non-duality these days is actually a different form of solipsism, namely metaphysical solipsism. So a lot of non-dualists on these forums are actually metaphysical solipsist. Musk would be an epistemological solipsist.
However, calling Awareness or the ground of being as some might call it a shared reality would be a mistake, because from that perspective there is no separation, which means there is only what you are, the Infinite, THIS, or Self, so there are no others. So who would then be sharing what with whom and where? That question, in that context, makes no sense whatsoever.
ETA: Check out this link: spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/497420Are you familiar with the idea of a "truism" or "unfalsifiable" idea? In my view you can't compare this "LOA", as you've described it, with something like physics. It's apples and oranges. The LOA you've described is more like a truism. It's true because of the structure of the idea, and the way counter-examples are dismissed; it can't be falsified. As you said: if you disprove it, you prove it. In science and most philosophy that is considered a bad thing, not a strong theory. However, in psychology or spirituality, it could still be useful, or a kind of "pointer". Various lines of solipsistic thinking lead to a similar "truism" as you define it, and it's one or more variants of these that underlie the simulation theory. For example, you cannot falsify the proposition that your brain is in a jar in a laboratory being fed all of what you perceive as signals generated artificially. One of the most interesting critiques of the theory I've seen is based in pattern recognition: "Five minutes after invention of the wheel: Everything is an eternal cycle of recurrence" "Five minutes after the invention of the printing press: God, is the word" "Five minutes after the first chat bot inverts the Turing Test": God, is the Singularity" .. there were a few other examples that escape me right now .. |
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Post by laughter on Jun 6, 2024 6:31:36 GMT -5
A lot of assertions there about various things that aren't true in my view, so we can leave it that and agree to disagree on some of that. For what's it's worth, I saw a previous post where you wondered why people argued with you on this topic. I see in your posts here and in the other thread, a number of uses of "domination/competition" language: "superior", "defeat LOA", "higher", "lesser", mere "self help", etc. I'm sensing a comparison/competition paradigm that I'm not sensing from other posters. That's not inherently bad or wrong - perhaps you were a competitive athlete or something. But ironically, it will troll, trigger, and attract people who want to fight with it, so don't be surprised when that happens! ......I would be curious Reefs, can you name anyone you respect as having a more-full understanding, deeper realization, of all that is, than yourself? (It can't be Ramana or Niz, as you've explained their deficiencies). Honest question, no pejorative intention.  |
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Post by laughter on Jun 6, 2024 6:35:12 GMT -5
The individual organism is a tiny aspect of the Whole ITSW that a wave is a tiny aspect of the ocean. The wave is a movement of the ocean in the same way that a human is a movement of the Whole. There is no separate volitional entity--no "me"---that ever does anything. If a thought appears, it is the Whole thinking the thought as a human. What is imagined as two is not two. There is no separate "me" circulating blood through the body, regulating hormones, digesting food,, moving nerve impulses or muscles, etc. any more than there is a "me" thinking thoughts, doing ATA-T, or scratching an itch. This can be realized, and after it is realized, life becomes simple and matter of fact. Seeking comes to an end because it's seen (by THIS as a human) that the seeking "me" was an illusion. SR is THIS waking up to ITSELF via what we distinguish and call "a human." There is no "other." Look around. Everything (every thing) that the eyes see is a seamless field of being. We can call that field of being, or living presence, "Source," "Reality," "The Infinite," or "the Whole." Take your pick. OK, I didn't you had changed your view. But this leaves out completely, conditioning. In my view, you have to account for individual conditioning/programming. And this is what accounts for murder, rape, terrorism, genocide, the nasty side of life. Do they occur outside of all that is? No. There are two flows within all that is. One flow accounts for the nastiness (the other flow, you describe). Dude, I could put up a link wall as long as a chimp's arm demonstrating this is the same tune he has sung since he started writing here. .. as far as the murder and raping go .. is something on your mind? Something bothering you?  |
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Post by laughter on Jun 6, 2024 6:40:19 GMT -5
OK, I didn't you had changed your view. But this leaves out completely, conditioning. In my view, you have to account for individual conditioning/programming. And this is what accounts for murder, rape, terrorism, genocide, the nasty side of life. Do they occur outside of all that is? No. There are two flows within all that is. One flow accounts for the nastiness (the other flow, you describe). I've never changed my view regarding ND, and this does not leave out conditioning. Humans are culturally conditioned to imagine separateness. This is true for all humans. They think that they are separate volitional entities living in a world of separate things and other separate entities like themselves. They continue to believe this unless they penetrate that illusion. As such, they develop self-centeredness, tribal affiliations, and "negative" personality attributes that are based upon the idea of a "me" with personal needs/desires interacting with "others" who can be used to satisfy those needs/desires. People who wake up detach from those kinds of thoughts and see other people as manifestations of the same unified field of being that they are. This changes their understanding and way of life. In short, Jesus and Hitler were both manifestations of THIS because THIS is all there is.  .. oh no .. the hitler card ... saints preserve us!  |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 6, 2024 7:32:47 GMT -5
OK, I didn't you had changed your view. But this leaves out completely, conditioning. In my view, you have to account for individual conditioning/programming. And this is what accounts for murder, rape, terrorism, genocide, the nasty side of life. Do they occur outside of all that is? No. There are two flows within all that is. One flow accounts for the nastiness (the other flow, you describe). Dude, I could put up a link wall as long as a chimp's arm demonstrating this is the same tune he has sung since he started writing here. .. as far as the murder and raping go .. is something on your mind? Something bothering you? ZD wrote this: Just to be clear, I've never said that an individual body/mind organism doesn't act; He's only said that specifically about three times here in reply to me. That's the beginning of good and honest discussion. But he then always reverts back to...the same old... |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 6, 2024 7:47:32 GMT -5
OK, I didn't you had changed your view. But this leaves out completely, conditioning. In my view, you have to account for individual conditioning/programming. And this is what accounts for murder, rape, terrorism, genocide, the nasty side of life. Do they occur outside of all that is? No. There are two flows within all that is. One flow accounts for the nastiness (the other flow, you describe). I've never changed my view regarding ND, and this does not leave out conditioning. Humans are culturally conditioned to imagine separateness. This is true for all humans. They think that they are separate volitional entities living in a world of separate things and other separate entities like themselves. They continue to believe this unless they penetrate that illusion. As such, they develop self-centeredness, tribal affiliations, and "negative" personality attributes that are based upon the idea of a "me" with personal needs/desires interacting with "others" who can be used to satisfy those needs/desires. People who wake up detach from those kinds of thoughts and see other people as manifestations of the same unified field of being that they are. This changes their understanding and way of life. In short, Jesus and Hitler were both manifestations of THIS because THIS is all there is. Is conditioning real or imaginary? Is the Gaza situation real or imaginary, people dying, people starving? Is the Ukraine situation real or imaginary? We have strife and conflict and war, because of conditioning. Sure, Jesus and Hitler are manifestations of the Whole, but Jesus was completely unconditioned, Hitler was completely conditioned, they didn't overlap in any way, except existing within the Whole. I'm not interested in any view that doesn't explain the difference between Jesus and Hitler. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jun 6, 2024 7:59:33 GMT -5
Reefs, nailed, but he can't help himself. ......I would be curious Reefs, can you name anyone you respect as having a more-full understanding, deeper realization, of all that is, than yourself? (It can't be Ramana or Niz, as you've explained their deficiencies). Honest question, no pejorative intention. Not taking the bait. You must have wondered why I haven't replied to your posts since you are back. That's why. You went right back where you left off. Not interested. Burn your strawmen elsewhere. I hadn't noticed... |
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Post by zendancer on Jun 6, 2024 8:11:18 GMT -5
I've never changed my view regarding ND, and this does not leave out conditioning. Humans are culturally conditioned to imagine separateness. This is true for all humans. They think that they are separate volitional entities living in a world of separate things and other separate entities like themselves. They continue to believe this unless they penetrate that illusion. As such, they develop self-centeredness, tribal affiliations, and "negative" personality attributes that are based upon the idea of a "me" with personal needs/desires interacting with "others" who can be used to satisfy those needs/desires. People who wake up detach from those kinds of thoughts and see other people as manifestations of the same unified field of being that they are. This changes their understanding and way of life. In short, Jesus and Hitler were both manifestations of THIS because THIS is all there is. Is conditioning real or imaginary? Is the Gaza situation real or imaginary, people dying, people starving? Is the Ukraine situation real or imaginary? We have strife and conflict and war, because of conditioning. Sure, Jesus and Hitler are manifestations of the Whole, but Jesus was completely unconditioned, Hitler was completely conditioned, they didn't overlap in any way, except existing within the Whole. I'm not interested in any view that doesn't explain the difference between Jesus and Hitler. Is a fist real or imaginary? If one opens a fist, where does the fist go? Is a fist born when one closes one's hand? Does a fist die when one's hand is opened? What makes a fist a fist? Isn't it obvious that the whole fist/hand thing is the intellect making distinctions ABOUT reality? What is the difference between what a fist IS and the idea of a fist? Does a fist or a hand exist? What is meant by the word "exist?" What is the difference between existence and non-existence? Is the Gaza situation real or imaginary? Why add complexity? Keep it simple. Open and close a hand and contemplate what the mind is doing when it makes distinctions such as "hand" or "fist." After the hand/fist illusion is penetrated, the Gaza question, based on the same kind of illusion, may also get resolved. |
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Post by Gopal on Jun 6, 2024 10:47:43 GMT -5
OK, I didn't you had changed your view. But this leaves out completely, conditioning. In my view, you have to account for individual conditioning/programming. And this is what accounts for murder, rape, terrorism, genocide, the nasty side of life. Do they occur outside of all that is? No. There are two flows within all that is. One flow accounts for the nastiness (the other flow, you describe). I've never changed my view regarding ND, and this does not leave out conditioning. Humans are culturally conditioned to imagine separateness. This is true for all humans. They think that they are separate volitional entities living in a world of separate things and other separate entities like themselves. They continue to believe this unless they penetrate that illusion. As such, they develop self-centeredness, tribal affiliations, and "negative" personality attributes that are based upon the idea of a "me" with personal needs/desires interacting with "others" who can be used to satisfy those needs/desires. People who wake up detach from those kinds of thoughts and see other people as manifestations of the same unified field of being that they are. This changes their understanding and way of life. In short, Jesus and Hitler were both manifestations of THIS because THIS is all there is. I think this is well explained. |
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Post by Gopal on Jun 6, 2024 10:49:59 GMT -5
Is conditioning real or imaginary? Is the Gaza situation real or imaginary, people dying, people starving? Is the Ukraine situation real or imaginary? We have strife and conflict and war, because of conditioning. Sure, Jesus and Hitler are manifestations of the Whole, but Jesus was completely unconditioned, Hitler was completely conditioned, they didn't overlap in any way, except existing within the Whole. I'm not interested in any view that doesn't explain the difference between Jesus and Hitler. Is a fist real or imaginary? If one opens a fist, where does the fist go? Is a fist born when one closes one's hand? Does a fist die when one's hand is opened? What makes a fist a fist? Isn't it obvious that the whole fist/hand thing is the intellect making distinctions ABOUT reality? What is the difference between what a fist IS and the idea of a fist? Does a fist or a hand exist? What is meant by the word "exist?" What is the difference between existence and non-existence? Is the Gaza situation real or imaginary? Why add complexity? Keep it simple. Open and close a hand and contemplate what the mind is doing when it makes distinctions such as "hand" or "fist." After the hand/fist illusion is penetrated, the Gaza question, based on the same kind of illusion, may also get resolved. You are giving a very bad example. |
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Post by Gopal on Jun 6, 2024 10:51:27 GMT -5
Is conditioning real or imaginary? Is the Gaza situation real or imaginary, people dying, people starving? Is the Ukraine situation real or imaginary? We have strife and conflict and war, because of conditioning. Sure, Jesus and Hitler are manifestations of the Whole, but Jesus was completely unconditioned, Hitler was completely conditioned, they didn't overlap in any way, except existing within the Whole. I'm not interested in any view that doesn't explain the difference between Jesus and Hitler. Is a fist real or imaginary? If one opens a fist, where does the fist go? Is a fist born when one closes one's hand? Does a fist die when one's hand is opened? What makes a fist a fist? Isn't it obvious that the whole fist/hand thing is the intellect making distinctions ABOUT reality? What is the difference between what a fist IS and the idea of a fist? Does a fist or a hand exist? What is meant by the word "exist?" What is the difference between existence and non-existence? Is the Gaza situation real or imaginary? Why add complexity? Keep it simple. Open and close a hand and contemplate what the mind is doing when it makes distinctions such as "hand" or "fist." After the hand/fist illusion is penetrated, the Gaza question, based on the same kind of illusion, may also get resolved. He says that everything moves as one which means that no individual takes the decision separately or act separately. |
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Post by zendancer on Jun 6, 2024 11:19:52 GMT -5
Is a fist real or imaginary? If one opens a fist, where does the fist go? Is a fist born when one closes one's hand? Does a fist die when one's hand is opened? What makes a fist a fist? Isn't it obvious that the whole fist/hand thing is the intellect making distinctions ABOUT reality? What is the difference between what a fist IS and the idea of a fist? Does a fist or a hand exist? What is meant by the word "exist?" What is the difference between existence and non-existence? Is the Gaza situation real or imaginary? Why add complexity? Keep it simple. Open and close a hand and contemplate what the mind is doing when it makes distinctions such as "hand" or "fist." After the hand/fist illusion is penetrated, the Gaza question, based on the same kind of illusion, may also get resolved. He says that everything moves as one which means that no individual takes the decision separately or act separately. Correct. I could use other examples besides a hand opening and closing to illustrate two different distinctions and how distinctions obscure the underlying unity,, but fifty years ago Alan Watts used the "fist" example to show how "a verb is masquerading as a noun." It's an example that sometimes triggers a realization of what lies behind the world of nouns.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2024 11:35:47 GMT -5
A lot of assertions there about various things that aren't true in my view, so we can leave it that and agree to disagree on some of that. For what's it's worth, I saw a previous post where you wondered why people argued with you on this topic. I see in your posts here and in the other thread, a number of uses of "domination/competition" language: "superior", "defeat LOA", "higher", "lesser", mere "self help", etc. I'm sensing a comparison/competition paradigm that I'm not sensing from other posters. That's not inherently bad or wrong - perhaps you were a competitive athlete or something. But ironically, it will troll, trigger, and attract people who want to fight with it, so don't be surprised when that happens!
Since you chose to go the ad hominem route now instead of offering a solid counter argument, I have to assume that you haven't really thought this thru. So agree to disagree is fine with me.
Have a nice day.
Wow, interesting. I've seen that pattern before so I'm not too surprised, but I didn't realize it was so strongly in play here. To me, my post was only a bit of gentle, friendly pointing to some useful and highly relevant small-s self-knowledge. I meant it to be helpful, not an "ad hominem" insult. |
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......I would be curious Reefs, can you name anyone you respect as having a more-full understanding, deeper realization, of all that is, than yourself? (It can't be Ramana or Niz, as you've explained their deficiencies). Honest question, no pejorative intention. 
