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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2024 20:08:09 GMT -5
Yes, I have no doubt that human history has an interior story that is not spoken about as much as it could have been, but that's changing. Look, I'm going to say it now because it's been on my mind throughout the day. You sing Reefs praises at any opportunity about how much he has changed this forum and yet you are one of his most persistent combatants lately. How about seriously considering having a few months off to see how your life rolls out without the constant interaction here? You know me, I bail periodically because I get too full of other people's stuff on here and it does me no good. It delays my own integration and quietening and then I return with a little more stability and hopefully a little more insight. We all get that you've studied hard over the decades and we love your contributions. We know how much it means to you to have this place to share in, but I genuinely believe that you're not seeing what Reefs and Zen say, and I don't know why that is. Caught up with notifications, saw the two likes.  ......  I'll be back May 1, 2024. Get some rest man. Love ya |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2024 20:09:24 GMT -5
How is it 'End of story'? He uses different terminology.. he talks about Nirvikalpa Samadhi, how do you know that this isn't the same refined state that Gurdjeff tried to take his students to? I've spread and sprinkled clues throughout posts, and even whole threads, for years. If anyone else were on the same page as sdp, they would have picked up on the hints. Very few have. I don't actually write against ND, I just say, there's further. I've said to ZD multiple times, I agree with you, up to here. They've all taken that to mean sdp doesn't know what he's talking about. I can't help that. Read my answer to andrew above, ZD has never claimed to be able to be aware during the sleep of the body. Stuff like that.... Enigma used to though.. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 27, 2024 20:15:08 GMT -5
ZD has stated very clearly he doesn't know what a soul is. I've never heard ZD say that. I've heard him say that he doesn't know what other people mean by (the term) soul. |
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Post by justlikeyou on Jan 27, 2024 20:19:20 GMT -5
ZD has stated very clearly he doesn't know what a soul is. I've never heard ZD say that. I've heard him say that he doesn't know what other people mean by (the term) soul.
That in whom reside all beings and who resides in all beings, who is the
giver of grace to all, the Supreme Soul of the universe, the limitless being
-- I am that.
Amritbindu Upanishad
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Post by Reefs on Jan 27, 2024 23:32:39 GMT -5
I'm going to answer notifications, then take Sharon's suggestion. I've written about that already today, in answer to the question about the final end to Gurdjieff's teaching. I will add one thing to that post, about "immortality" within the limits of the solar system. If you have formed such a body, the first stage is forming a body kesdjan, or imply a second body, then your consciousness never sleeps, IOW, you are aware while the body sleeps. If you have not reached this stage, you could call it *surviving* sleep, then ~you~ are not going to survive the death of the physical body. As I said, it all depends upon what one's aim is. Does one's aim come from a *deep enough* place in oneself? Aim is VERY important, sometimes your aim is everything you have. period. Basically, you can't go further than the aim you have. Agree. In a sense, we don't choose our 'aim'. It's more that it chooses us. I might be wrong but it sounds like the 'ultimate' for Gurdi, is similar to what Reefs would call 'SR+alignment'. Seems to me that Gurdi was definitely on the alignment track, but far from the SR track. As Farmer noticed, you're never done with the Gurdi work. It's the same with alignment, you're never done. With SR though, once you've realized Self, you've realized Self. That's why SDP keeps confusing SR with alignment, thinking that there always has to be a further. But since SR is referring to the absolute realm, a 'further' doesn't even make sense. A 'further' can only apply to something in the relative realm. That's where SDP's confusion lies. It's the SVP thinking about and imagining what the unknown, unthinkable and unimaginable would be like based on what the known, thinkable and imaginable is. He's spent the past 15 years like that, and it just doesn't work like that. Hence his mounting frustration over the years. Now he's reached a breaking point and is standing at the edge of the blue cliff. On the other side ZD is beckoning patiently. I've done that too and I've also met SDP on his side and gave him a kick in the butt there. Let's see if he's man enough to do the jump into total freedom. He can't take Gurdi with him there, that's for sure. That's what he has to realize. Gurdi, with his levels, layers and degrees approach, is nailing SDP's foot forever to the relative realm. Let's see what happens on on May 1, 2024. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2024 5:31:35 GMT -5
Agree. In a sense, we don't choose our 'aim'. It's more that it chooses us. I might be wrong but it sounds like the 'ultimate' for Gurdi, is similar to what Reefs would call 'SR+alignment'. Seems to me that Gurdi was definitely on the alignment track, but far from the SR track. As Farmer noticed, you're never done with the Gurdi work. It's the same with alignment, you're never done. With SR though, once you've realized Self, you've realized Self. That's why SDP keeps confusing SR with alignment, thinking that there always has to be a further. But since SR is referring to the absolute realm, a 'further' doesn't even make sense. A 'further' can only apply to something in the relative realm. That's where SDP's confusion lies. It's the SVP thinking about and imagining what the unknown, unthinkable and unimaginable would be like based on what the known, thinkable and imaginable is. He's spent the past 15 years like that, and it just doesn't work like that. Hence his mounting frustration over the years. Now he's reached a breaking point and is standing at the edge of the blue cliff. On the other side ZD is beckoning patiently. I've done that too and I've also met SDP on his side and gave him a kick in the butt there. Let's see if he's man enough to do the jump into total freedom. He can't take Gurdi with him there, that's for sure. That's what he has to realize. Gurdi, with his levels, layers and degrees approach, is nailing SDP's foot forever to the relative realm. Let's see what happens on on May 1, 2024. The end point is acquiring what Gurdjieff called Real I. |
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Post by Reefs on Jan 28, 2024 6:31:59 GMT -5
Seems to me that Gurdi was definitely on the alignment track, but far from the SR track. As Farmer noticed, you're never done with the Gurdi work. It's the same with alignment, you're never done. With SR though, once you've realized Self, you've realized Self. That's why SDP keeps confusing SR with alignment, thinking that there always has to be a further. But since SR is referring to the absolute realm, a 'further' doesn't even make sense. A 'further' can only apply to something in the relative realm. That's where SDP's confusion lies. It's the SVP thinking about and imagining what the unknown, unthinkable and unimaginable would be like based on what the known, thinkable and imaginable is. He's spent the past 15 years like that, and it just doesn't work like that. Hence his mounting frustration over the years. Now he's reached a breaking point and is standing at the edge of the blue cliff. On the other side ZD is beckoning patiently. I've done that too and I've also met SDP on his side and gave him a kick in the butt there. Let's see if he's man enough to do the jump into total freedom. He can't take Gurdi with him there, that's for sure. That's what he has to realize. Gurdi, with his levels, layers and degrees approach, is nailing SDP's foot forever to the relative realm. Let's see what happens on on May 1, 2024. The end point is acquiring what Gurdjieff called Real I. Thanks for the link, but... The end point is acquiring what Gurdjieff called Real I. That's having a body of a finer vibration, Gurdjieff called it a Soul body (in Beelzebub's Tales). The beginning process is using the physical body as a chemical laboratory to transform the energy of food, air and (sensory) impressions into a finer energy, not known in ordinary life. It's a tangible energy, meaning, you know when it is present (and when it isn't). Gurdjieff said a man or woman with Real I (Soul body) "is immortal within the limits of the solar system", meaning, nothing within the solar system could destroy the Soul body (and basically will last longer than the solar system lasts). In Search of the Miraculous pg 94. (Slightly combined with Beelzebub's Tales language). ... no, that's not the real I and not SR. SR is not about transformation but realization. Nothing has to change other than a shift of perspective from seeing the real as false and the false as real to seeing the real as real and the false as false. SDP and Gurdi are basically alchemists. It's just a higher level of SVP experience. SR is seeing thru the SVP, not transforming the SVP into a super SVP. And that's not immortality, that's just an extended life time. Immortality means never born and so never having to die. Hence his misconceived question to me about how I am planning to die. |
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Post by Reefs on Jan 28, 2024 6:38:53 GMT -5
Seems to me that Gurdi was definitely on the alignment track, but far from the SR track. As Farmer noticed, you're never done with the Gurdi work. It's the same with alignment, you're never done. With SR though, once you've realized Self, you've realized Self. That's why SDP keeps confusing SR with alignment, thinking that there always has to be a further. But since SR is referring to the absolute realm, a 'further' doesn't even make sense. A 'further' can only apply to something in the relative realm. That's where SDP's confusion lies. It's the SVP thinking about and imagining what the unknown, unthinkable and unimaginable would be like based on what the known, thinkable and imaginable is. He's spent the past 15 years like that, and it just doesn't work like that. Hence his mounting frustration over the years. Now he's reached a breaking point and is standing at the edge of the blue cliff. On the other side ZD is beckoning patiently. I've done that too and I've also met SDP on his side and gave him a kick in the butt there. Let's see if he's man enough to do the jump into total freedom. He can't take Gurdi with him there, that's for sure. That's what he has to realize. Gurdi, with his levels, layers and degrees approach, is nailing SDP's foot forever to the relative realm. Let's see what happens on on May 1, 2024. He has a lifetime invested and it’s part of his identity now… how do you walk away from that? For most people it doesn’t even make sense why you would want to… Yes, same for the zennist. They've built their identity around it. And they got lost in dogma and ritual. And dogma and ritual are abstractions, lifeless. Only the living truth can set you free. That's the difference between truth and truthin'. What SDP is interested in is truth, but we are not interested in that here, we are interested in truthin'. That's the big clash of perspectives you see between SDP and ZD all the time. I can play both sides, but in the end I always bring it back to truthin'. ZD tends to stay firmly on the truthin' side. That's why SDP usually found my explanations more palatable. So SDP often thought he finally got my drift but then he was at a total loss again. It must seem like a bait and switch game to him. So I can understand his frustration. But it's self-created misery, that's what he has to realize. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 28, 2024 10:18:04 GMT -5
Grandma is spiritual fire! She sees your sins and your failed spiritual practices, and holds your faces to the flames of penance! No one is safe!  |
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Post by laughter on Jan 28, 2024 10:21:15 GMT -5
Dude, you just can't stop yourself. I've had enough of tour bullshit. I didn't know you were on a bullshit tour. But it makes sense now. You've only bullshitting yourself, I don't think anyone here truly bought your posh soto zennist schtick. Alternatively, you could read what Lolly wrote about non-reactivity. Maybe that helps. Good stuff. And if that doesn't help either, then just continue like this and destroy the rest of that little credibility that you still have left... and then be free! People tend to underestimate the potency of the left hand path. z' has always admitted to his reactivity, often with self-effacing humor.  |
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Post by laughter on Jan 28, 2024 10:36:18 GMT -5
I meant well . Many nightmares are meant to trigger "lucid dreaming". Many awake situations that cause you intense fear, anger, frustration, have the same purpose: to bring you " lucidity", to re-establish the innate connection to the inner self when awake, like a student who knows why he is in school, like a game player who knows he plays it to acquire skills, not for fun, like anybody who understands that he does a job as part of his growth and development, not only because he needs the money. It is a matter of perspective. You liked the word "immersed" ... Your default state should be of "lucidity", from which you consciously "immerse" yourself in whatever needed, whenever needed, to the optimum degree needed, for how long needed, only. Your story has a deeper interpretation that you seem to suggest. The interpretation depends only on your beliefs and approach. No problem. People don't think they have beliefs, because the beliefs are invisible, it's what-they- are, what they consider themselves to be. It's kind of like being in a cult, you never recognize you are a cult member, until you're out. You don't realize you had a belief, until your belief changes. And then the new belief, likewise, you think, now I have the truth. Rinse and repeat. Lennon got at this (very superficially) with "Watching the Wheels". It's quite possible to see the machine for what it is. Wisdom is absence. One can even go looking .. actively .. for what was there .. that just ain't, no more.  Self-honestly always has to be the basis, the stance, the mindset, and the method. |
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Post by laughter on Jan 28, 2024 10:42:21 GMT -5
I understand. I look at it, and at that, differently. Of course, because you're different from me. What a thing for a nondualist to say.  |
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Post by laughter on Jan 28, 2024 10:58:33 GMT -5
Seems to me that Gurdi was definitely on the alignment track, but far from the SR track. As Farmer noticed, you're never done with the Gurdi work. It's the same with alignment, you're never done. With SR though, once you've realized Self, you've realized Self. That's why SDP keeps confusing SR with alignment, thinking that there always has to be a further. But since SR is referring to the absolute realm, a 'further' doesn't even make sense. A 'further' can only apply to something in the relative realm. That's where SDP's confusion lies. It's the SVP thinking about and imagining what the unknown, unthinkable and unimaginable would be like based on what the known, thinkable and imaginable is. He's spent the past 15 years like that, and it just doesn't work like that. Hence his mounting frustration over the years. Now he's reached a breaking point and is standing at the edge of the blue cliff. On the other side ZD is beckoning patiently. I've done that too and I've also met SDP on his side and gave him a kick in the butt there. Let's see if he's man enough to do the jump into total freedom. He can't take Gurdi with him there, that's for sure. That's what he has to realize. Gurdi, with his levels, layers and degrees approach, is nailing SDP's foot forever to the relative realm. Let's see what happens on on May 1, 2024. The end point is acquiring what Gurdjieff called Real I. Yes, and this reminds me of a dialog I once had with E' on the topic of "sincere seekers". |
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Post by Reefs on Jan 29, 2024 11:04:00 GMT -5
All, The karma vs. LOA discussion deserves a separate thread and has been moved here. R |
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Post by zendancer on Jan 29, 2024 12:35:00 GMT -5
like the way you expressed that. So you are asking if Gurdi's teaching offers the potential for this (end of torment and living freely instead)? Does it SDP? I think the things called ‘existential questions’ can never be satisfactorily answered and will simply regurgitate in your mind… until they don’t… But it’s not like the questions are answered, per se, it’s just that they stop arising… (which speaks more to the ‘quieting’ of a mind than just sweeping it under the rug for later retrieval) It may depend upon what one considers "an answer." The answers to ALL of my existential questions got answered definitively, although the answers now seem humorous in retrospect. Here are some examples: 1. Why, as Americans at this retreat, are we chanting in Korean? Why hasn't the format changed in a way that acknowledges that most retreatants are lay people who speak English? This question arose spontaneously during my first Zen retreat. While chanting the Heart Sutra, the mind suddenly dropped away (hard to describe) and there was a huge insight. Afterwards, the answer to the question became obvious. The Zen Master who created the Zen school that sponsored the retreat was Korean, and he set up the program the way he wanted to. He spoke Korean and he inserted Korean chants into the format. This answer and accompanying understanding will seem trivial, but it was not trivial at the time. 2. My final existential question was, "How is it possible to stay in a unity-conscious state of mind permanently?" After the past sense of "me" vanished, and it was realized that THIS is the only doer, the answer to question then became obvious. Every human is ALWAYS in a unity-conscious state of mind whether they know it or not because there is only THIS doing whatever is done. The illusion was that "I" had oscillated between states of unity consciousness and ordinary consciousness, but that idea was false. There had never been a SVP oscillating between unity consciousness and ordinary consciousness. 3. One of my grandfather's favorite riddles: It was the bottom of the ninth inning. The score was tied, and the bases were loaded. The batter hit a home run, but not a man scored. Why? Because it was a game of baseball played by women. 4. A professor was greeted by a student one morning who said, "Good morning." The professor walked on thinking, "I wonder what he meant by that?" This is an old joke that illustrates that the professor was living in his head, but it can be asked as a koan. What did the student mean? The answer is that the student meant "Good morning!" haha I could list dozens of other koans (some shallow and some extremely deep), and they all have simple obvious answers once the illusion or paradox or double bind is penetrated. Some of them are answered by a physical action but a majority are answered with words. |
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Self-honestly always has to be the basis, the stance, the mindset, and the method.