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Post by inavalan on Jan 27, 2024 19:18:20 GMT -5
I was careful to challenge only his post, although you are right: I recall this poster's older posts too, and that I disagreed with them at the time. I'll be honest inavalan it didn't look that careful to me. You had set a standard of engagement in your previous post here spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/510899 and then in my opinion dropped below it in the very next post. I'll flesh it out a little because the forum is fraught enough at the moment, so to me, people set standards on others all the time but the majority of the time they are just ideals that they'd like to live by. If they were truly anchored in those standards then they would have little interest in comparing and critiquing all the time. I understand. I look at it, and at that, differently. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2024 19:19:32 GMT -5
Because I understand what you're writing. If that true, cool. And that's the meaning of "transmission outside the scriptures". Yeah it's true, I wouldn't write it if it wasn't. Yeah books aren't needed because wherever you live, the Infinite lives also. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2024 19:24:05 GMT -5
I'll be honest inavalan it didn't look that careful to me. You had set a standard of engagement in your previous post here spiritualteachers.proboards.com/post/510899 and then in my opinion dropped below it in the very next post. I'll flesh it out a little because the forum is fraught enough at the moment, so to me, people set standards on others all the time but the majority of the time they are just ideals that they'd like to live by. If they were truly anchored in those standards then they would have little interest in comparing and critiquing all the time. I understand. I look at it, and at that, differently. Of course, because you're different from me.  |
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Post by andrew on Jan 27, 2024 19:24:41 GMT -5
And end point of what though? There's no end to refinement of skills, or growth of capacities.....you mean something else? A very good question you ask and I wish I could answer it for you but I don’t think I can In ‘ND talk’ it’s called ‘the end of seeking’…. but what does that even mean… ? From my position it means the end of a tormenting mind that is constantly questioning, and is often dissatisfied, with how things actually are… and simply living your life freely and effortlessly, regardless of whatever happens along the way.… like the way you expressed that. So you are asking if Gurdi's teaching offers the potential for this (end of torment and living freely instead)? Does it SDP? |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 27, 2024 19:28:05 GMT -5
But the point is, there's more to it. The ND written about here barely overlaps with what Gurdjieff taught. Some things I've written about tonight have never come up here before. There's {...[...(...)...]...}. This (...) is nonduality, discussed here. I've been trying to speak to this for 15 years, here. As I've often said, first you have to sail a small dingy. ND is the frog in the well, that thinks the well is the ocean. Of course {........} is also Nonduality. In my honest opinion, you're getting caught up in what isn't so again. I get that it's taken all this time for you to write what's really important, but you have to understand the similarities and you can only do that from the 'Soul body' perspective. ZD has stated very clearly he doesn't know what a soul is. End of story. Soul body basically = Causal body. someNOTHING tried to bring in his Plotinus diagram model, with Soul and Spirit. He'll be back in a couple of weeks. Nothing he wrote indicated he knew the meaning of Soul or Spirit. But he claimed inclusivity of ND concerning the diagram. All that doesn't compute, I can't help that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2024 19:38:32 GMT -5
Because I understand what you're writing. If that true, cool. And that's the meaning of "transmission outside the scriptures". I have seen the inner teaching given in a book on Kabbalah, and a book on Kundalini, neither time named self-remembering. In Beelzebub's Tales Gurdjieff said there was a genuine Initiate among the American Indians/Native Americans, he used a different (Washington NFL) word. Gurdjieff never claimed to be the only one with genuine interior practices. He also wrote the Essenes continued up to his present time (who had the inner work), unbroken back to the first century. Yes, I have no doubt that human history has an interior story that is not spoken about as much as it could have been, but that's changing. Look, I'm going to say it now because it's been on my mind throughout the day. You sing Reefs praises at any opportunity about how much he has changed this forum and yet you are one of his most persistent combatants lately. How about seriously considering having a few months off to see how your life rolls out without the constant interaction here? You know me, I bail periodically because I get too full of other people's stuff on here and it does me no good. It delays my own integration and quietening and then I return with a little more stability and hopefully a little more insight. We all get that you've studied hard over the decades and we love your contributions. We know how much it means to you to have this place to share in, but I genuinely believe that you're not seeing what Reefs and Zen say, and I don't know why that is. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 27, 2024 19:40:31 GMT -5
A very good question you ask and I wish I could answer it for you but I don’t think I can In ‘ND talk’ it’s called ‘the end of seeking’…. but what does that even mean… ? From my position it means the end of a tormenting mind that is constantly questioning, and is often dissatisfied, with how things actually are… and simply living your life freely and effortlessly, regardless of whatever happens along the way.… like the way you expressed that. So you are asking if Gurdi's teaching offers the potential for this (end of torment and living freely instead)? Does it SDP? It's complicated. A primary inner practice is called voluntary suffering (written about in Beelzebub's Tales). Basically, you don't try to escape any suffering whatsoever, you just let it be and observe it. (Gurdjieff also wrote about getting out from under suffering, by what he called our inner god, self-calming) Eventually, there is nothing in ordinary life that can make you suffer. In that sense there is an end to torment. ...OK, it's all about energy, saving and transforming energy. If you've ever suffered, you may not have realized it, but suffering is an enormous waste of energy. You can become quite literally drained. Thus, in voluntary suffering, you let it be, and observe it (to be able to observe it you save the energy, instead of wasting it). However, that only takes one so far. And, buried deep within, there is a source of further suffering, and this a source of more enormous energy. So, when one is finished with voluntary suffering, as defined above, to go yet deeper and further, the practice is intentional suffering. So, it all depends upon what one's aim is. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 27, 2024 19:45:24 GMT -5
like the way you expressed that. So you are asking if Gurdi's teaching offers the potential for this (end of torment and living freely instead)? Does it SDP? It's complicated. A primary inner practice is called voluntary suffering (written about in Beelzebub's Tales). Basically, you don't try to escape any suffering whatsoever, you just let it be and observe it. (Gurdjieff also wrote about getting out from under suffering, by what he called our inner god, self-calming) Eventually, there is nothing in ordinary life that can make you suffer. In that sense there is an end to torment. ...OK, it's all about energy, saving and transforming energy. If you've ever suffered, you may not have realized it, but suffering is an enormous waste of energy. You can become quite literally drained. Thus, in voluntary suffering, you let it be, and observe it (to be able to observe it you save the energy, instead of wasting it). However, that only takes one so far. And, buried deep within, there is a source of further suffering, and this a source of more enormous energy. So, when one is finished with voluntary suffering, as defined above, to go yet deeper and further, the practice is intentional suffering. So, it all depends upon what one's aim is. Okay thanks, let me check my interpretation of your words. Are you saying that Gurdi's teaching can take folks to the point that Farmer said? But if one also wants to go further than that, then he offers a teaching for that too? If I've understood that right, what does he say is the value of going further than that? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2024 19:45:27 GMT -5
In my honest opinion, you're getting caught up in what isn't so again. I get that it's taken all this time for you to write what's really important, but you have to understand the similarities and you can only do that from the 'Soul body' perspective. ZD has stated very clearly he doesn't know what a soul is. End of story. Soul body basically = Causal body. someNOTHING tried to bring in his Plotinus diagram model, with Soul and Spirit. He'll be back in a couple of weeks. Nothing he wrote indicated he knew the meaning of Soul or Spirit. But he claimed inclusivity of ND concerning the diagram. All that doesn't compute, I can't help that. How is it 'End of story'? He uses different terminology.. he talks about Nirvikalpa Samadhi, how do you know that this isn't the same refined state that Gurdjeff tried to take his students to? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2024 19:55:12 GMT -5
like the way you expressed that. So you are asking if Gurdi's teaching offers the potential for this (end of torment and living freely instead)? Does it SDP? It's complicated. A primary inner practice is called voluntary suffering (written about in Beelzebub's Tales). Basically, you don't try to escape any suffering whatsoever, you just let it be and observe it. (Gurdjieff also wrote about getting out from under suffering, by what he called our inner god, self-calming) Eventually, there is nothing in ordinary life that can make you suffer. In that sense there is an end to torment. ...OK, it's all about energy, saving and transforming energy. If you've ever suffered, you may not have realized it, but suffering is an enormous waste of energy. You can become quite literally drained. Thus, in voluntary suffering, you let it be, and observe it (to be able to observe it you save the energy, instead of wasting it). However, that only takes one so far. And, buried deep within, there is a source of further suffering, and this a source of more enormous energy. So, when one is finished with voluntary suffering, as defined above, to go yet deeper and further, the practice is intentional suffering. So, it all depends upon what one's aim is. Christopher Bache went into the Ocean of Suffering for seven of his 20 years of intentional LSD exploration. Every time he dosed up he returned to the horrors of humanity.. until one day he opened up to the Divine. He never needed to return there after then. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 27, 2024 19:56:00 GMT -5
It's complicated. A primary inner practice is called voluntary suffering (written about in Beelzebub's Tales). Basically, you don't try to escape any suffering whatsoever, you just let it be and observe it. (Gurdjieff also wrote about getting out from under suffering, by what he called our inner god, self-calming) Eventually, there is nothing in ordinary life that can make you suffer. In that sense there is an end to torment. ...OK, it's all about energy, saving and transforming energy. If you've ever suffered, you may not have realized it, but suffering is an enormous waste of energy. You can become quite literally drained. Thus, in voluntary suffering, you let it be, and observe it (to be able to observe it you save the energy, instead of wasting it). However, that only takes one so far. And, buried deep within, there is a source of further suffering, and this a source of more enormous energy. So, when one is finished with voluntary suffering, as defined above, to go yet deeper and further, the practice is intentional suffering. So, it all depends upon what one's aim is. Okay thanks, let me check my interpretation of your words. Are you saying that Gurdi's teaching can take folks to the point that Farmer said? But if one also wants to go further than that, then he offers a teaching for that too? If I've understood that right, what does he say is the value of going further than that? I'm going to answer notifications, then take Sharon's suggestion. I've written about that already today, in answer to the question about the final end to Gurdjieff's teaching. I will add one thing to that post, about "immortality" within the limits of the solar system. If you have formed such a body, the first stage is forming a body kesdjan, or imply a second body, then your consciousness never sleeps, IOW, you are aware while the body sleeps. If you have not reached this stage, you could call it *surviving* sleep, then ~you~ are not going to survive the death of the physical body. As I said, it all depends upon what one's aim is. Does one's aim come from a *deep enough* place in oneself? Aim is VERY important, sometimes your aim is everything you have. period. Basically, you can't go further than the aim you have. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 27, 2024 20:01:32 GMT -5
ZD has stated very clearly he doesn't know what a soul is. End of story. Soul body basically = Causal body. someNOTHING tried to bring in his Plotinus diagram model, with Soul and Spirit. He'll be back in a couple of weeks. Nothing he wrote indicated he knew the meaning of Soul or Spirit. But he claimed inclusivity of ND concerning the diagram. All that doesn't compute, I can't help that. How is it 'End of story'? He uses different terminology.. he talks about Nirvikalpa Samadhi, how do you know that this isn't the same refined state that Gurdjeff tried to take his students to? I've spread and sprinkled clues throughout posts, and even whole threads, for years. If anyone else were on the same page as sdp, they would have picked up on the hints. Very few have. I don't actually write against ND, I just say, there's further. I've said to ZD multiple times, I agree with you, up to here. They've all taken that to mean sdp doesn't know what he's talking about. I can't help that. Read my answer to andrew above, ZD has never claimed to be able to be aware during the sleep of the body. Stuff like that.... |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 27, 2024 20:02:38 GMT -5
It's complicated. A primary inner practice is called voluntary suffering (written about in Beelzebub's Tales). Basically, you don't try to escape any suffering whatsoever, you just let it be and observe it. (Gurdjieff also wrote about getting out from under suffering, by what he called our inner god, self-calming) Eventually, there is nothing in ordinary life that can make you suffer. In that sense there is an end to torment. ...OK, it's all about energy, saving and transforming energy. If you've ever suffered, you may not have realized it, but suffering is an enormous waste of energy. You can become quite literally drained. Thus, in voluntary suffering, you let it be, and observe it (to be able to observe it you save the energy, instead of wasting it). However, that only takes one so far. And, buried deep within, there is a source of further suffering, and this a source of more enormous energy. So, when one is finished with voluntary suffering, as defined above, to go yet deeper and further, the practice is intentional suffering. So, it all depends upon what one's aim is. Christopher Bache went into the Ocean of Suffering for seven of his 20 years of intentional LSD exploration. Every time he dosed up he returned to the horrors of humanity.. until one day he opened up to the Divine. He never needed to return there after then. That's cool, it doesn't interest sdp. Not-suffering is a very low bar. |
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Post by andrew on Jan 27, 2024 20:05:03 GMT -5
Okay thanks, let me check my interpretation of your words. Are you saying that Gurdi's teaching can take folks to the point that Farmer said? But if one also wants to go further than that, then he offers a teaching for that too? If I've understood that right, what does he say is the value of going further than that? I'm going to answer notifications, then take Sharon's suggestion. I've written about that already today, in answer to the question about the final end to Gurdjieff's teaching. I will add one thing to that post, about "immortality" within the limits of the solar system. If you have formed such a body, the first stage is forming a body kesdjan, or imply a second body, then your consciousness never sleeps, IOW, you are aware while the body sleeps. If you have not reached this stage, you could call it *surviving* sleep, then ~you~ are not going to survive the death of the physical body. As I said, it all depends upon what one's aim is. Does one's aim come from a *deep enough* place in oneself? Aim is VERY important, sometimes your aim is everything you have. period. Basically, you can't go further than the aim you have. Agree. In a sense, we don't choose our 'aim'. It's more that it chooses us. I might be wrong but it sounds like the 'ultimate' for Gurdi, is similar to what Reefs would call 'SR+alignment'. |
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Post by stardustpilgrim on Jan 27, 2024 20:06:19 GMT -5
If that true, cool. And that's the meaning of "transmission outside the scriptures". I have seen the inner teaching given in a book on Kabbalah, and a book on Kundalini, neither time named self-remembering. In Beelzebub's Tales Gurdjieff said there was a genuine Initiate among the American Indians/Native Americans, he used a different (Washington NFL) word. Gurdjieff never claimed to be the only one with genuine interior practices. He also wrote the Essenes continued up to his present time (who had the inner work), unbroken back to the first century. Yes, I have no doubt that human history has an interior story that is not spoken about as much as it could have been, but that's changing. Look, I'm going to say it now because it's been on my mind throughout the day. You sing Reefs praises at any opportunity about how much he has changed this forum and yet you are one of his most persistent combatants lately. How about seriously considering having a few months off to see how your life rolls out without the constant interaction here? You know me, I bail periodically because I get too full of other people's stuff on here and it does me no good. It delays my own integration and quietening and then I return with a little more stability and hopefully a little more insight. We all get that you've studied hard over the decades and we love your contributions. We know how much it means to you to have this place to share in, but I genuinely believe that you're not seeing what Reefs and Zen say, and I don't know why that is. Caught up with notifications, saw the two likes.  ......  andrew got in just under the line, your post above, SR+ alignment not even close, except in the true sense of alignment, mentioned earlier (all the finer bodies aligned). I'll be back May 1, 2024. |
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