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Post by sree on May 29, 2022 22:54:07 GMT -5
Have you also looked into UG Krishnamurti? Yup. Glanced through his utterances and found nothing of significance. What is he to you? |
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Post by andrew on May 30, 2022 1:33:58 GMT -5
Have you also looked into UG Krishnamurti? Yup. Glanced through his utterances and found nothing of significance. What is he to you? I find him unique in the spiritual community in that he is respected as being 'enlightened' (and having had the kind of insight that you have had), and yet strongly rejects spiritualism and mysticism. I like his shade of enlightenment as much as I do many other shades that are more obviously spiritual/mystical. I thought you might find him interesting to read, given your own preference to avoid connotations of faith or religion. |
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Post by sree on May 30, 2022 10:04:47 GMT -5
Yup. Glanced through his utterances and found nothing of significance. What is he to you? I find him unique in the spiritual community in that he is respected as being 'enlightened' (and having had the kind of insight that you have had), and yet strongly rejects spiritualism and mysticism. I like his shade of enlightenment as much as I do many other shades that are more obviously spiritual/mystical. I thought you might find him interesting to read, given your own preference to avoid connotations of faith or religion. Your post is much appreciated; however, I view UG Krishnamurti's rejection of spiritualism and mysticism as silly. His tack was much like that of a kid throwing a tantrum and saying that he hates his mother. No kid, no matter how naughty, can live without mom, right? UG Krishnamurti was just another fakir.
Do you know who rejects spiritualism and mysticism? My dog. He doesn't know what they are.
I don't reject spiritualism and mysticism. They are cultural practices that have nothing to do with my inquiry into the nature of reality.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2022 14:18:12 GMT -5
I find him unique in the spiritual community in that he is respected as being 'enlightened' (and having had the kind of insight that you have had), and yet strongly rejects spiritualism and mysticism. I like his shade of enlightenment as much as I do many other shades that are more obviously spiritual/mystical. I thought you might find him interesting to read, given your own preference to avoid connotations of faith or religion. Your post is much appreciated; however, I view UG Krishnamurti's rejection of spiritualism and mysticism as silly. His tack was much like that of a kid throwing a tantrum and saying that he hates his mother. No kid, no matter how naughty, can live without mom, right? UG Krishnamurti was just another fakir.
Do you know who rejects spiritualism and mysticism? My dog. He doesn't know what they are.
I don't reject spiritualism and mysticism. They are cultural practices that have nothing to do with my inquiry into the nature of reality.
When you say the word Reality. Can you define exactly what you mean please? |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2022 14:23:47 GMT -5
Now, to be fair, I said earlier that J Krishnamurti was ~* IT*~ for me for about 5 years, 1971-1976. I got to the point where I could follow him in everything, every point he was making. And then he would get to the point where he said, And this seeing (or observing, he used different words) leads to action. But it never lead to any action for me. So I took where JK lead up-to, and found the next step...stumbled upon it. ...But then later...I could understand what Krishnamurti was about, he was a stepping stone for me. But he can be frustrating, he just throws you into the deep end, without explanation... Your familiarity with JK's work is good for our discussion on a matter important to me. My approach to fathoming the nature of the self is outside the paradigms of academic philosophy (metaphysics) and religious ideology (spiritualism). Both these paradigms are the product of culture which, as you have pointed out, conditions our points of view.
Fundamental inquiry into the self, the observer that is what I am, has a cause: the disease of human existence. Mankind is sick, and I must find a cure for this malaise However, if I cannot be free of the paradigms of culture, which is the root of our sickness, then my inquiry won't bear fruit. Krishnamurti's record of his abnormal perceptual experience is the only thing of curiosity to me. His so-called teaching has no value, as far as I am concerned. Perception is a phenomenological fact. Consciousness is an idea, "a product of thought" (Krishnamurti). Inquiry, therefore, is the empirical study of facts related to the examination of the nature of perception.
The sole reason as to why we don't have the truth about anything is because we can't see straight. All points of views are politically biased and conditioned by culture, as you pointed out. But no one wants to take off his/her screwed up second hand eyeglasses handed down through the ages and messed up by modern day intellectuals. If I were to hold up something that I think is the truth, are you willing to tell me what you see?
Can you show us what Jiddu said in this 'record' please? |
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Post by sree on May 30, 2022 22:30:59 GMT -5
Your familiarity with JK's work is good for our discussion on a matter important to me. My approach to fathoming the nature of the self is outside the paradigms of academic philosophy (metaphysics) and religious ideology (spiritualism). Both these paradigms are the product of culture which, as you have pointed out, conditions our points of view.
Fundamental inquiry into the self, the observer that is what I am, has a cause: the disease of human existence. Mankind is sick, and I must find a cure for this malaise However, if I cannot be free of the paradigms of culture, which is the root of our sickness, then my inquiry won't bear fruit. Krishnamurti's record of his abnormal perceptual experience is the only thing of curiosity to me. His so-called teaching has no value, as far as I am concerned. Perception is a phenomenological fact. Consciousness is an idea, "a product of thought" (Krishnamurti). Inquiry, therefore, is the empirical study of facts related to the examination of the nature of perception.
The sole reason as to why we don't have the truth about anything is because we can't see straight. All points of views are politically biased and conditioned by culture, as you pointed out. But no one wants to take off his/her screwed up second hand eyeglasses handed down through the ages and messed up by modern day intellectuals. If I were to hold up something that I think is the truth, are you willing to tell me what you see?
Can you show us what Jiddu said in this 'record' please? You can find what Krishnamurti said in his Notebook and Journal. They were records of his experiences when there was a state of observation without the observer. satch corroborated what I said in my post you quoted above.
Below is lifted from satch's Post 41.
"Krishnamurti describes a moment when he was in a room and he was watching some workers outside drilling a hole in the road and he described an experience where he became one with that experience where he was no different to the work that was going on in the road below his room." |
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Post by sree on May 31, 2022 10:02:10 GMT -5
Your post is much appreciated; however, I view UG Krishnamurti's rejection of spiritualism and mysticism as silly. His tack was much like that of a kid throwing a tantrum and saying that he hates his mother. No kid, no matter how naughty, can live without mom, right? UG Krishnamurti was just another fakir.
Do you know who rejects spiritualism and mysticism? My dog. He doesn't know what they are.
I don't reject spiritualism and mysticism. They are cultural practices that have nothing to do with my inquiry into the nature of reality.
When you say the word Reality. Can you define exactly what you mean please? Reality? Your bank account, handphone, your car, your mother, father, the sky above, the ground you walk on.
What's the matter with you? People who get too wrapped up with spirituality lose sight of reality. Get a grip. Jim Carrey lost his for a while in his excursion into "no self" land. |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 12:50:36 GMT -5
When you say the word Reality. Can you define exactly what you mean please? Reality? Your bank account, handphone, your car, your mother, father, the sky above, the ground you walk on.
What's the matter with you? People who get too wrapped up with spirituality lose sight of reality. Get a grip. Jim Carrey lost his for a while in his excursion into "no self" land. And you want to know the 'nature' of these events or experiences. Surely at the moment they are just descriptions in your mind? |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 13:00:19 GMT -5
Can you show us what Jiddu said in this 'record' please? You can find what Krishnamurti said in his Notebook and Journal. They were records of his experiences when there was a state of observation without the observer. satch corroborated what I said in my post you quoted above.
Below is lifted from satch's Post 41.
"Krishnamurti describes a moment when he was in a room and he was watching some workers outside drilling a hole in the road and he described an experience where he became one with that experience where he was no different to the work that was going on in the road below his room." Yeah because the internal narrative of himself as something other than this completely inclusive moment was turned off. It was only upon it's return, that he could firstly recognise that it had been gone and secondly give a description of "some workers outside drilling a hole in the road." We have discussed for years how acausal these states are. |
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2022 13:52:53 GMT -5
I am with Krishnamurti. We need to put Humpty together again. In that case get ready for another 10 years. Even if you carefully glue all the individual pieces of Humpty together again you will see cracks you didn't even have before. If all of the King's horses and all of the King's men can't put Humpty back together, then it might be best to just sweep up all the pieces and throw them in a fire.. |
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Post by sree on May 31, 2022 22:43:07 GMT -5
You can find what Krishnamurti said in his Notebook and Journal. They were records of his experiences when there was a state of observation without the observer. satch corroborated what I said in my post you quoted above.
Below is lifted from satch's Post 41.
"Krishnamurti describes a moment when he was in a room and he was watching some workers outside drilling a hole in the road and he described an experience where he became one with that experience where he was no different to the work that was going on in the road below his room." Yeah because the internal narrative of himself as something other than this completely inclusive moment was turned off. It was only upon it's return, that he could firstly recognise that it had been gone and secondly give a description of "some workers outside drilling a hole in the road." We have discussed for years how acausal these states are. Who are "we"? And your discussion is conclusive? What do you mean by "internal narrative"? I would like to review your discussion if you would be kind enough to lay it out for review. |
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Post by sree on May 31, 2022 23:06:58 GMT -5
Reality? Your bank account, handphone, your car, your mother, father, the sky above, the ground you walk on.
What's the matter with you? People who get too wrapped up with spirituality lose sight of reality. Get a grip. Jim Carrey lost his for a while in his excursion into "no self" land. And you want to know the 'nature' of these events or experiences. Surely at the moment they are just descriptions in your mind? Yes. Reality is what we are, our existential state, our daily life as human beings living on planet Earth. What are you? A man? A woman? An American scarfing down burgers on Memorial Day to pay homage to our warriors or some miserable Afghan goatherd constantly looking at the sky in fear of a drone homing in on his cellphone for a hellfire missile strike? I want to know why we are killing one another as a way of life. They are not descriptions in my mind. They are real as in "reality".
Spirituality is inquiry into the nature of why we are acting crazy. |
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Post by sree on Jun 1, 2022 10:37:39 GMT -5
I am with Krishnamurti. We need to put Humpty together again. In that case get ready for another 10 years. Even if you carefully glue all the individual pieces of Humpty together again you will see cracks you didn't even have before. You perceive Humanity as starduspilgrim does: a planet Earth inhabited by some 8 billion people of different nationalities and cultures in various countries.
When I visited the Krishnamurti Foundation of India, I met with a few "friends" in the front garden the moment I arrived. (Back in those early days when I was swept up by the Krishnamurti teaching, everyone welcomed me as a friend the way Christians would enthuse over a newcomer to their church.) Anyway, there was this Indian guy who told me that he was not an Indian. He said that nationalism was the cause of wars. I studied his dark skin, facial features, and mannerisms. I couldn't pick him apart from the natives of Tamil Nadu I ran into everywhere in Chennai. After some small talk, I turned to him and asked: "Are you an Englishman?" He replied "No". I said: "Then, you are an Indian." When the welcome chat was over and we finally got into the hall for a scheduled discussion, he caught up with me and chided: "You shouldn't have taken me by surprise like that."
So, what is your eternal timeless nature, snatch? stardustpilgrim is a male from Charlotte, NC. Assuming he has done better than my Indian acquaintance at the KFI and transcended the nationalistic and cultural conditioning, there is still the gender gap and physical crack of space and time - that separate him and others - to overcome. He hasn't succeeded in obliterating those divides if he sees “fundamental change in mankind” as an undertaking to be accomplished one person at a time.
Krishnamurti's method for fixing Humpty involves no gluing. I think he diagnosed the human problem as a perceptual defect that can be eliminated instantly through insight: fundamental transformation, he called it. Until then, Humpty sees itself not as a cracked egg but as a part of an egg broken into 8 billion pieces. Therefore, yours (and mine and stardustpilgrim’s too) is a false Humpty identity for which there is no enlightenment /salvation/eternal nature. It vanishes when the body dies.
Insight is a sudden realization, not of the truth but a false truth: an illusion perceived as reality. Krishnamurti said that there is no way to it. Obviously. Now you see it (false), now you don't (gone). It comes unbidden in a flash.
Illusion perceived as reality. Abscissa asked: “What is reality?” I told her but she dismissed my answer out of hand. Why? Is my way of life as a man, an American with a mom and dad, a wife and kids, a handphone, car, house, and bank account not conditioned by culture and perceived as real? How does one see that the nature of reality is illusory? “To see the truth in the false.” (Krishnamurti)
This is getting too long. Even I am getting bored with this sermon. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2022 14:32:32 GMT -5
And you want to know the 'nature' of these events or experiences. Surely at the moment they are just descriptions in your mind? Yes. Reality is what we are, our existential state, our daily life as human beings living on planet Earth. What are you? A man? A woman? An American scarfing down burgers on Memorial Day to pay homage to our warriors or some miserable Afghan goatherd constantly looking at the sky in fear of a drone homing in on his cellphone for a hellfire missile strike? I want to know why we are killing one another as a way of life. They are not descriptions in my mind. They are real as in "reality". Ok.. what you're calling reality looks like the human condition to me. You want to know why people kill other people as a job? Because they have families to feed or families to protect. It's complicated. Humans didn't become the dominant species on this planet by not killing. If you have a family now, then you must know where the line is between what you would and wouldn't do to protect them. And again to me, Psychology not Spirituality is the inquiry into why people act crazy. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2022 14:42:25 GMT -5
In that case get ready for another 10 years. Even if you carefully glue all the individual pieces of Humpty together again you will see cracks you didn't even have before. You perceive Humanity as starduspilgrim does: a planet Earth inhabited by some 8 billion people of different nationalities and cultures in various countries.
When I visited the Krishnamurti Foundation of India, I met with a few "friends" in the front garden the moment I arrived. (Back in those early days when I was swept up by the Krishnamurti teaching, everyone welcomed me as a friend the way Christians would enthuse over a newcomer to their church.) Anyway, there was this Indian guy who told me that he was not an Indian. He said that nationalism was the cause of wars. I studied his dark skin, facial features, and mannerisms. I couldn't pick him apart from the natives of Tamil Nadu I ran into everywhere in Chennai. After some small talk, I turned to him and asked: "Are you an Englishman?" He replied "No". I said: "Then, you are an Indian." When the welcome chat was over and we finally got into the hall for a scheduled discussion, he caught up with me and chided: "You shouldn't have taken me by surprise like that."
So, what is your eternal timeless nature, snatch? stardustpilgrim is a male from Charlotte, NC. Assuming he has done better than my Indian acquaintance at the KFI and transcended the nationalistic and cultural conditioning, there is still the gender gap and physical crack of space and time - that separate him and others - to overcome. He hasn't succeeded in obliterating those divides if he sees “fundamental change in mankind” as an undertaking to be accomplished one person at a time.
Krishnamurti's method for fixing Humpty involves no gluing. I think he diagnosed the human problem as a perceptual defect that can be eliminated instantly through insight: fundamental transformation, he called it. Until then, Humpty sees itself not as a cracked egg but as a part of an egg broken into 8 billion pieces. Therefore, yours (and mine and stardustpilgrim’s too) is a false Humpty identity for which there is no enlightenment /salvation/eternal nature. It vanishes when the body dies.
Insight is a sudden realization, not of the truth but a false truth: an illusion perceived as reality. Krishnamurti said that there is no way to it. Obviously. Now you see it (false), now you don't (gone). It comes unbidden in a flash.
Illusion perceived as reality. Abscissa asked: “What is reality?” I told her but she dismissed my answer out of hand. Why? Is my way of life as a man, an American with a mom and dad, a wife and kids, a handphone, car, house, and bank account not conditioned by culture and perceived as real? How does one see that the nature of reality is illusory? “To see the truth in the false.” (Krishnamurti)
This is getting too long. Even I am getting bored with this sermon. Not necessarily. There is an emotional attachment to the not-true that held it in place, this has to be honestly and respectfully acknowledged and permitted to die off. This permission can only be granted by remaining present to the triggers that were previously accepted as valid. |
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