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Post by tenka on Nov 28, 2022 15:55:48 GMT -5
It depends on what one is required to experience and for what reason . You can sing affirmations all day long to win the lottery, but if one is required to live in poverty then nothing is going to change that .
Who is required to live in poverty? How does that requirement arise? In what circumstance is poverty a necessity?
Talk sense to me, tenka.
When there is a incarnation had, it's not by chance you are born with a silver spoon or in poverty . One has to understand on a deeper level what one requires to experience and for why . Some never get to know in their current lifetime . You see if you are experiencing something for a reason, then no matter how much wishful thinking one has, one cannot change what the soul desires . When I experienced many years of suffering that led me down the self enquiry path, this was meant to be . A bit like Tolle I dare say with his suffering . I am not saying that life's circumstances can change, but it depends on where one is at within themselves . Transformation happen all the time for folk . A change of fortune etc etc .. Many believe that LOA means that you can bypass all that one has chosen to experience and turn it on it's head simply cos they don't like how things currently are . |
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Post by tenka on Nov 28, 2022 15:59:35 GMT -5
It depends on what one is required to experience and for what reason . You can sing affirmations all day long to win the lottery, but if one is required to live in poverty then nothing is going to change that . Why would someone be 'required' to live in poverty? Because it has been chosen . Why would there be the calling or inner desire to experience poverty? One would have to ask themselves that question . Required - in keeping with one's wishes .. |
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Post by inavalan on Nov 28, 2022 15:59:54 GMT -5
The way I see it, nobody is required to "live in poverty". Poverty results ultimately from one or more liming beliefs held by the pauper, most likely unconscious beliefs that may have been unfounded and never taken care of. For example, "if one is required to live in poverty then nothing is going to change that", is a belief. When you don't like what you experience, you have to identify the beliefs that cause it. It is what to some degree psychoanalysis does, and age and past-life regression do too. Each belief once identified, and most likely seen as being unfounded, or at least unfounded anymore, can be suspended and replaced with a constructive belief. Consequently the current experience will change, and usually rapidly. If it doesn't change, there might be other beliefs that need identification, and closure. Even from the perspective that the current predicament was "selected" before birth, it was selected only to be dealt with, not to be experienced as suffering. Suffering is a symptom, not a cure. I suppose it boils down to having an understanding of prior to life experience and life times had previously or not . Some believe that one starts off in life with a clean slate and it's by luck if one incarnates into circumstances and environment less favourable than other's. The royal babe or the one born on the streets . I have a fair understanding of my current life in reflection of other's had . It's by no coincidence . One has to understand why a certain lifetime experienced is experienced . You see Jesus was never going to be a fisherman or a blacksmith . I believe that I understand, and generally agree. But, Jesus could've failed in his attempt. I believe that there are probable realities in which he failed, and that there are other realities in which he really succeeded as compared to what we know. Children don't come with a clean slate (as far as I believe / know), but from the womb they start getting telepathic downloads that shape their beliefs, overriding what they knew and what they were supposed to use here. There is a developmentally detrimental psychic threshold around 4-5 years old, and another one around 12-13 years old. There are levels of probabilities; nothing is predetermined. |
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Post by tenka on Nov 28, 2022 16:17:40 GMT -5
I suppose it boils down to having an understanding of prior to life experience and life times had previously or not . Some believe that one starts off in life with a clean slate and it's by luck if one incarnates into circumstances and environment less favourable than other's. The royal babe or the one born on the streets . I have a fair understanding of my current life in reflection of other's had . It's by no coincidence . One has to understand why a certain lifetime experienced is experienced . You see Jesus was never going to be a fisherman or a blacksmith . I believe that I understand, and generally agree. But, Jesus could've failed in his attempt. I believe that there are probable realities in which he failed, and that there are other realities in which he really succeeded as compared to what we know. Children don't come with a clean slate (as far as I believe / know), but from the womb they start getting telepathic downloads that shape their beliefs, overriding what they knew and what they were supposed to use here. There is a developmentally detrimental psychic threshold around 4-5 years old, and another one around 12-13 years old. There are levels of probabilities; nothing is predetermined. There's a lot to this and I don't have much time to respond. I would agree that there are other realities that would reflect different outcomes but we can only really relate to here and now. The list is endless in regards to iff's and buts isn't it, what about if the bloke next-door didn't work on his car that night and the fire didn't start, what about if Hitler was killed by a car aged 5. It just seems to pan out as it does . It's not by chance that spirit give me the names of those that passover before it happens . Why would they give me a string of probabilities / possibilities . I think however that some things are in the balance and things are not set in stone . Somethings don't seem to be able to be changed though . As Laffy spoke about Ramana regarding free will and destiny and not knowing the unknown .. It really is a deep hole and there isn't a one answer for all I would say because it depends on where one is within themselves. It depends on what one has manifested for themselves and for reasons why . The same situation could face two peeps and both have the opposite foundations as to why they stand where they stand . |
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Post by lolly on Nov 28, 2022 18:10:25 GMT -5
I agree that manifestation is already happening, but as soon as we talk of 'want' we aspire to a future experience. I also think the LOA narrative on the one hand makes a simple matter of confidence unnecessarily convoluted, and on the other hand is a crude version kamma philosophy. The vague allusion to 'alignment' - the lack thereof - perhaps suggests that people are inhibited by complex arrays of destructive negativity and self-impressions. I can't be sure because spiritual rhetoric is intentionally, and therefore, dishonestly ambiguous. I'm saying people do have such negative thinking and self-impressionism holding them back, and I suggest being realistic about it. It's wrong to start thinking nonsense Hicks said like, 'Oh I'm not aligned- that why' (not a quote). It's better to recognise in a completely factual way, 'it is precisely this negativity and these self-depreciating impressions that are holding me back, or attracting this crap'. I'm not saying there's anything wrong and it needs to be fixed. Maybe you can resolve it or maybe you can't. These sorts of beliefs are tricky and sticky and usually have a pile of evidence backing them up.
Here's the way I look at it, in brief. (sdp laughs at that). There is LOA and manifestation from two standpoints, our larger being or innerbeing, and the small s self. We have to decide which/who/what we are. For me, small s self just gets in the way, but it has to be considered. You know what seeing double means? You can do it easily by tugging on the skin below your eye in just the right way, experiment. But most of us live with double vision, as analogy. One image is our innerbeing, the other image is our small s self. For me alignment is the small s self being aligned with innerbeing. This eliminates the second image, no double vision. So if one is working from the standpoint of the small s self, this is just a waste of time. It's possible to have success, but still it's just a waste of time. The small s self needs to align with innerbeing, that's true alignment. I doubt anyone decides who they are. I think you either know who you are or you pretend to be someone you're not. If you pretend for too long you can't find your way back. It's perfectly fine to be lost, but not to continue pretending. With that premise it's better to find out about yourself than try to change yourself.
There is self-image, the way you feel about yourself and so on which everyone knows about, and big S and little s which is some sort of spiritual story. I can deal with the things I know, and not abstract self theory.
LOA sounds like, 'You need to be better and it's your fault you're not'. They say 'don't have limiting beliefs'. I say you have limiting beliefs that hold you back. Period. I don't say you shouldn't or that it should be another way.
I started out with a Louise Hay based healing centre back in the 80's, which really just boiled down to "I love and approve of myself", but people say they do because they don't. It amounts to lying to yourself - I know I hate myself and I need to convince myself I don't - under the false premise that I choose who I am. There is no truth in it.
Now I'm over the hill and I get it. While everything is getting better it's easy to be deluded with positivity and control, but then it becomes very-real that I'm going to get old and die regardless of what I or anyone else wants or doesn't want. Nature having no regard for preference is what life is really like. What was once a possibility is no longer, and as time goes by the higher summit will no longer be a possibility. I'll be forced to revert to smaller mountains. That is not 'because of belief'. It's true no matter what anyone believes, and if LOA works at all, it's extremely constrained by not only what one believes is possible, but also by the truth of consequence.
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Post by sree on Nov 28, 2022 18:16:32 GMT -5
Who is required to live in poverty? How does that requirement arise? In what circumstance is poverty a necessity?
Talk sense to me, tenka.
When there is a incarnation had, it's not by chance you are born with a silver spoon or in poverty . One has to understand on a deeper level what one requires to experience and for why . Some never get to know in their current lifetime . You see if you are experiencing something for a reason, then no matter how much wishful thinking one has, one cannot change what the soul desires . When I experienced many years of suffering that led me down the self enquiry path, this was meant to be . A bit like Tolle I dare say with his suffering . I am not saying that life's circumstances can change, but it depends on where one is at within themselves . Transformation happen all the time for folk . A change of fortune etc etc .. Many believe that LOA means that you can bypass all that one has chosen to experience and turn it on it's head simply cos they don't like how things currently are . You believe in a personal soul? |
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Post by lolly on Nov 28, 2022 18:52:55 GMT -5
That's the Randi trap again. You are asking the impossible. How can you try to prove a point to someone and be in alignment at the same time? When you are in alignment you don't care what anybody thinks. When you care what someone thinks, you are not in alignment. But more importantly, it would be illogical given your strong disbelief that LOA would match you up with someone who could show you a 200m swim in less than 1:45. First you would have to believe that it is possible before you can attract someone who can show that it is possible. If you don't believe it possible, the people you will attract that are willing to play your silly game will all fail. And then you say, see I told you it doesn't work! Well, duh!  As usual, you mischaracterize my open inquiry on this topic as hardened disbelief. You can't handle basic and clear questions here and it's telling. It's because everyone knows a great lap-time is impossible unless you condition the body for it over time, and for some people, a great lap time is impossible just because genetics are not suited, disabled, too old etc. That's why I take a realistic approach. I.e. To achieve a realistic goal (depends on many factors) you have to do this and this and this. If you don't do the things, you won't get the time.
The beauty of setting realistic goals is it keeps the mind in the 'I can', and when the target is hit, 'I can' is affirmed. Not by affirmation, but by proof. That 'I can' is confidence, but it can be vain, so things need to be measured by reality, the possible, and grand delusions have to kept in check.
I think the spiritualists encourage grand delusions. Hicks tells gullible people to 'align' and they believe magic will happen, but it doesn't, and because they never did the things, they never swim the lap-time.
Is it possible if you believe it? Maybe. I don't know. But the more pertinent question is 'do you think it's possible'? I say no. I say it's possible IF. If I do the training I will do the time - and I bet you 100 bucks I'll beat 100% of those who trained under Hicks.
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Post by andrew on Nov 28, 2022 19:04:50 GMT -5
As usual, you mischaracterize my open inquiry on this topic as hardened disbelief. You can't handle basic and clear questions here and it's telling. It's because everyone knows a great lap-time is impossible unless you condition the body for it over time, and for some people, a great lap time is impossible just because genetics are not suited, disabled, too old etc. That's why I take a realistic approach. I.e. To achieve a realistic goal (depends on many factors) you have to do this and this and this. I you don't do the things, you won't get the time. The beauty of setting realistic goals is it keeps the mind in the 'I can', and when the target is hit, 'I can' is affirmed. Not by affirmation, but by proof. That 'I can' is confidence, but it can be vain, so things need to be measured by reality, the possible, and grand delusions have to kept in check. I think the spiritualists encourage grand delusions. Hicks tells gullible people to 'align' and they believe magic will happen, but it doesn't, and because they never did the things, they never swim the lap-time. Is it possible if you believe it? Maybe. I don't know. But the more pertinent question is 'do you think it's possible'? I say no. I say it's possible IF. If I do the training I will do the time - and I bet you 100 bucks I'll beat 100% of those who trained under Hicks.
'Alignment' = pathway to fulfilling the desire. That may include a lot of training. I might even say that every world champion has experienced alignment. I'd probably question the authenticity of a desire expressed by an 80 year old to be a swimming world champion. I would guess it's more of a whim, or something along those lines. When there's alignment to a desire, it feels true. And that's partly what makes the desire so compelling. It feels congruent and right. Whereas a whim is fleeting, superficial, something to toy with when we are a bit bored and messing around with ideas. It can take time to sort out the difference between whims and desires, at least, that's true in my experience. Maybe worth adding that in my view, the best LOA teachings are selling the virtue of the experience of alignment itself. So in a slightly odd inverted way, the desired outcome is more the means to the end. It's the journey that's the joy, but there's no journey without a destination. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 20:05:33 GMT -5
That's the Randi trap again. You are asking the impossible. How can you try to prove a point to someone and be in alignment at the same time? When you are in alignment you don't care what anybody thinks. When you care what someone thinks, you are not in alignment. But more importantly, it would be illogical given your strong disbelief that LOA would match you up with someone who could show you a 200m swim in less than 1:45. First you would have to believe that it is possible before you can attract someone who can show that it is possible. If you don't believe it possible, the people you will attract that are willing to play your silly game will all fail. And then you say, see I told you it doesn't work! Well, duh! As usual, you mischaracterize my open inquiry on this topic as hardened disbelief. You can't handle basic and clear questions here and it's telling. Be that as it may, that doesn't change the fact that your logic is flawed. It's also not the first that I have been pointing that out to you. We've been there before at this point on a different topic. So I don't think you are being honest here. I also don't see how personally attacking me is going to fix your flawed logic. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 20:07:39 GMT -5
No, I'm not that interested in it. From my very limited understanding of it, it seems like arguing against it would by like fighting a tar-baby. Every once in a while I wonder why does that person believe in LOA? So I was curious about Rupert Spira when I stumbled upon a video of him discussing it. Turns out he's not that interested either, and doesn't know much about it. Being alive is a mystery. Being alive in an insecure and dangerous reality makes one seek out and cling to any belief that can mitigate the fear. It's not easy to face reality. Don't face reality, create reality! |
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Post by sree on Nov 28, 2022 20:10:39 GMT -5
Being alive is a mystery. Being alive in an insecure and dangerous reality makes one seek out and cling to any belief that can mitigate the fear. It's not easy to face reality. Don't face reality, create reality! You are on rapid fire, Reefs. Taking down one SVP a minute?
You swear by LOA? You can control your situation in life?
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 20:12:51 GMT -5
Yes. Also, I find it a little hard to imagine that this is a desire that can be aligned to, because there's a measurement built into the desire, and measurements are rational and limiting. There's also a competitive element which strikes me as incompatible. Alignment is a felt sense that isn't compatible with number crunching and egoic goals. One could align easily to the desire to swim with elegance, grace and power, or to experience joyful swimming (or experience themselves as a joyful swimmer). This can all be felt. [...] I agree with that. I almost wrote something similar in my post from yesterday - that "alignment" would be about finding the joy in the moment, in the feel of the water, the movement. I remember doing that! As a side effect I think it makes you a slightly better swimmer from a time/measurement point of view, but you wouldn't focus or obsess on those external measurements. That's actually where I ended up, and why I don't compete in athletics much anymore. Or if I do, it's just fun and I don't mind "winning" or "losing", unlike the teenage ego. But Reefs keeps pushing this idea that you can manifest god-like personal-ego-power in concrete and measured ways - like in our example here, to swim with the measured speed an Olympic athlete because of some alignment/creation power. My simple questions trigger him into bouts of logical failure, and the usual mischaracterizing my inquiry as hardened (dis)belief.
Attachment to these kind of personal-power beliefs - smells like buried denial-of-death to me. You seem upset. As I just said, random ad hominems are not a substitute for a valid counter-argument. If you have a valid counter-argument, lets' hear it. If not, let it go. |
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Post by sree on Nov 28, 2022 20:14:51 GMT -5
As usual, you mischaracterize my open inquiry on this topic as hardened disbelief. You can't handle basic and clear questions here and it's telling. Be that as it may, that doesn't change the fact that your logic is flawed. It's also not the first that I have been pointing that out to you. We've been there before at this point on a different topic. So I don't think you are being honest here. I also don't see how personally attacking me is going to fix your flawed logic. You need to back up a step and give Robert some space. You have no idea how imposing you are. You are dominating the cage, man. You do have some great moves. Give us a chance to strut our stuff. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2022 20:26:08 GMT -5
I agree that manifestation is already happening, but as soon as we talk of 'want' we aspire to a future experience. I also think the LOA narrative on the one hand makes a simple matter of confidence unnecessarily convoluted, and on the other hand is a crude version kamma philosophy. The vague allusion to 'alignment' - the lack thereof - perhaps suggests that people are inhibited by complex arrays of destructive negativity and self-impressions. I can't be sure because spiritual rhetoric is intentionally, and therefore, dishonestly ambiguous. I'm saying people do have such negative thinking and self-impressionism holding them back, and I suggest being realistic about it. It's wrong to start thinking nonsense Hicks said like, 'Oh I'm not aligned- that why' (not a quote). It's better to recognise in a completely factual way, 'it is precisely this negativity and these self-depreciating impressions that are holding me back, or attracting this crap'. I'm not saying there's anything wrong and it needs to be fixed. Maybe you can resolve it or maybe you can't. These sorts of beliefs are tricky and sticky and usually have a pile of evidence backing them up.
Here's the way I look at it, in brief. (sdp laughs at that). There is LOA and manifestation from two standpoints, our larger being or innerbeing, and the small s self. We have to decide which/who/what we are. For me, small s self just gets in the way, but it has to be considered. You know what seeing double means? You can do it easily by tugging on the skin below your eye in just the right way, experiment. But most of us live with double vision, as analogy. One image is our innerbeing, the other image is our small s self. For me alignment is the small s self being aligned with innerbeing. This eliminates the second image, no double vision. So if one is working from the standpoint of the small s self, this is just a waste of time. It's possible to have success, but still it's just a waste of time. The small s self needs to align with innerbeing, that's true alignment. It doesn't matter where the desire comes from, clear seeing in the mind's eye kicks your creative mind to bring that experience to you. For an example, If you can feel like you are being somewhere(feeling part is essential), then sooner or later you will taken there to experience the same. |
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Post by Reefs on Nov 28, 2022 20:28:30 GMT -5
The way I see it, nobody is required to "live in poverty". Poverty results ultimately from one or more liming beliefs held by the pauper, most likely unconscious beliefs that may have been unfounded and never taken care of. For example, "if one is required to live in poverty then nothing is going to change that", is a belief. When you don't like what you experience, you have to identify the beliefs that cause it. It is what to some degree psychoanalysis does, and age and past-life regression do too. Each belief once identified, and most likely seen as being unfounded, or at least unfounded anymore, can be suspended and replaced with a constructive belief. Consequently the current experience will change, and usually rapidly. If it doesn't change, there might be other beliefs that need identification, and closure. Even from the perspective that the current predicament was "selected" before birth, it was selected only to be dealt with, not to be experienced as suffering. Suffering is a symptom, not a cure. I suppose it boils down to having an understanding of prior to life experience and life times had previously or not . Some believe that one starts off in life with a clean slate and it's by luck if one incarnates into circumstances and environment less favourable than other's. The royal babe or the one born on the streets . I have a fair understanding of my current life in reflection of other's had . It's by no coincidence . One has to understand why a certain lifetime experienced is experienced . You see Jesus was never going to be a fisherman or a blacksmith . Yes, if you assume that your life starts with your physical birth and ends with your physical death, nothing in your life is going to make sense. It will all seem like random and essentially pointless and depressing. There are pre-birth intentions. You don't come here as a clean slate, you come here with a certain set of talents, mental predisposition, and are on some sort of trajectory. What you do with that, that's up to you though. Because the point of power is always in the Now. So you are not a slave to past karma, but don't need to fully break with the past either. There's an enormous degree of latitude. Theoretically, you could excel in any field of your choice, because in the end it's just a matter of desire and lining up with that desire. However, because of these pre-birth intentions, not every desire would feel as satisfying and meaningful. |
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